Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

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Doruletz
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

Jedinovice wrote:Oh yeah.. and, there is absolutely no hope in hell of my ever being able to afford any kind of i7 processor and I can't risk such an expensive machine as a laptop anyway. As I say to my students,

"What happens when I buy an i7 laptop at $1,200 dollars... and I drop it...?"
Computers are my hobby, and also where I bury most of my hard earned money. All Desktop Computers I have, I just buy top of the line parts and build myself
That Gaming PC I mentioned in my previous post, the one with the Intel® Core™ i7-4790K, EVGA Superclocked nVidia GTX 960 GPU (Graphics Card), with 2GB of dedicated graphics memory, GDDR5, with 32GB of DDR3 RAM (4 x 8GB), with 3 SSD drives (120GB, 240GB and 960GB) and 3 HDD (3TB, 5.6TB and 6TB), water cooling, etc, cost me about $2,200 for parts alone.
For laptops I just shop around...
In the last 2 or 3 years, I bought two i7 laptops from Newegg for under $700 each, my last acquisition was an ASUS 17.3" R751JN-MH71 Intel Core i7 4710HQ (2.50 GHz) NVIDIA GeForce 840M 8 GB Memory 1 TB HDD Gaming Laptop, which I immediately upgraded to 16GB (2 x 8GB) G.Skill DDR3 1600MHz RAM, and since it had 2 hard drive caddys, I added a 60GB SSD for my Linux OS, while using the existing 1TB HDD for personal user file storage.
That ASUS is a classic, NO TOUCH SCREEN, as I hate those with a passion, being an old fashion mouse and keyboard kind of guy.
That ASUS was preceded by an HP-ENVY-TS-17, also 17", with an Intel Core i7-4700MQ, integrated Intel Graphics (no card), 8GB RAM and a 1TB HDD. The HP is a touch screen, wife and daughter love those, most likely just to spite me...
SO, I guess instead of paying anywhere from $250 to $400 for a low end piece of crap (NO OFFENSE), you can add another $300-$400 to that and get yourself a decent laptop, capable of video encoding and mild to even hard core gaming...
But, everyone has its one priorities and set of rules on what to do with their money, so stick with the "LEMONS", if that's what suits your fancy.
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

samriggs wrote:
Fred Barclay wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:"What happens when I buy an i7 laptop at $1,200 dollars... and I drop it...?"
Well, at that point you would solder it all back together with that 30lb lump hammer... :P
Or mail me the parts, I'll fix it up and have a cheaper i7 laptop :lol:
Ooooh! There's an idea!!

Tell ya, what you send me your parts first... :lol:
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Doruletz wrote:Computers are my hobby, and also where I bury most of my hard earned money. All Desktop Computers I have, I just buy top of the line parts and build myself
Likewise in days gone by… except I could never afford top of the line even in the old days.
Now I have to be all laptop it's a non-starter.

But what I am doing, in essence, is building my own laptop! And, for technical reasons, it cannot be top of the line.
That Gaming PC I mentioned in my previous post, the one with the Intel® Core™ i7-4790K, EVGA Superclocked nVidia GTX 960 GPU (Graphics Card), with 2GB of dedicated graphics memory, GDDR5, with 32GB of DDR3 RAM (4 x 8GB), with 3 SSD drives (120GB, 240GB and 960GB) and 3 HDD (3TB, 5.6TB and 6TB), water cooling, etc, cost me about $2,200 for parts alone.
Marvelous! Good for you. Even if I could afford all that… there is no way I could justify the cost to the wife. I am getting away with the laptop (re)build because of special circumstances and because it saves he cost of an all new, even bottom of the range, laptop.

Please note that I live in Indonesia where wages are far below those of the West in general. OK, the cost of living - if you know what you're doing, and I didn't when I first arrived - is much lower but t is still the case that the cost of hardware here is much higher in proportion to earnings and you get less for your money. So a laptop that retails for $300 in the US with 4GB of RAM will come with 2GB and 500 to 320GB HD as well as it is…

So there are local constraints.
For laptops I just shop around…
Ah, well, on this one occasion I am not shopping around but building something 'new.'
In the last 2 or 3 years, I bought two i7 laptops from Newegg for under $700 each, my last acquisition was an ASUS 17.3" R751JN-MH71 Intel Core i7 4710HQ (2.50 GHz) NVIDIA GeForce 840M 8 GB Memory 1 TB HDD Gaming Laptop, which I immediately upgraded to 16GB (2 x 8GB) G.Skill DDR3 1600MHz RAM, and since it had 2 hard drive caddys, I added a 60GB SSD for my Linux OS, while using the existing 1TB HDD for personal user file storage.
Again - excellent! And totally beyond my price range. I also have new for a laptop for myself, one for my wife who also teaches on the move and backup so that we can carry on if/when one fails - and two have and so we are on back ups!!! And we don;t have the budget to replace the motherboard of one machine as we prepare to set up business together. New chairs, books, printer higher priority with my laptop (re)build/prototype hoping to pick up the slack!

Local conditions.
That ASUS is a classic, NO TOUCH SCREEN, as I hate those with a passion, being an old fashion mouse and keyboard kind of guy.
Ditto. Touch screens are for content consumers. Press a button and there is Facebook. [Though I love getting similar via hotleys in KDE]
For those of us who have to our laptops to deliver the goods you have to use mouse!
That ASUS was preceded by an HP-ENVY-TS-17, also 17", with an Intel Core i7-4700MQ, integrated Intel Graphics (no card), 8GB RAM and a 1TB HDD. The HP is a touch screen, wife and daughter love those, most likely just to spite me…
Yes… well, I can see why they'll want to do that…! :D
Actually, touchscreens are beloved of the computer illiterate. I hate Unity because it is absolutely the UI of a smartphone - which a LOT of people like!!! Total IT technobobes love Unity because it involves no brain at all. Just press a button - app appears full screen, just they way they think it should and just like their smartphone. I usability tests the content producers hated Unity while total technophobes loved it.
SO, I guess instead of paying anywhere from $250 to $400 for a low end piece of crap (NO OFFENSE),
None taken. I don;t expect most to 'get' me! I am used to being the oddball. I take great delight in showing the weirdos in class who are like me - there's normally one - how and why they are seen to be weird and why they do not feel they fit in. They often find it life changing!

I understand your point but $250 in Western money is equivalent to $500 here proportionate to income. (But my rent costs only 20$ of my earnings for a three bedroom house, fully furnished while in the old country, a tiny two bedroom apartment costs half my income!)
>you can add another $300-$400 to that and get yourself a decent laptop, capable of video encoding and mild to even hard core gaming…
I regard my old single core atom which has delivered above and beyond expectations nder the white heat of the Singaporean education system, in which I worked 14 hours a days, seven days a week - no, literally. It nearly killed me - as being a decent machine. It has delivered to me and to my wife who took to it and KDE and wouldn't give the little machine back until it broke… after five years of hard core use!
But, everyone has its one priorities and set of rules on what to do with their money,
Exactly!
so stick with the "LEMONS", if that's what suits your fancy.
Ah! Now there you have made a 'mistake.' You see, I am a romantic. I am the sort of character who is attracted to the little, cast away machines that everyone else spits on. I am on the side of the underdog. So if everyone spits on the lowly little atom, I am the sort of person to take it under my wing
and go; "There, there. I'll restore you and make you do real work - including video editing."

Most people of a tech bent are dispassionate about their machines. They want the best and when the rig does not deliver, they'll junk it or pass it on and upgrade. It's just a machine. I'm one of those that gets emotionally attached and thinks of the laptop as a friend - if it behaves well. :mrgreen:
Just call me irrational, nod, smile and back away. It happens often.


And, remember, this is a prototype!

I think by the end of today we will reached the 60% complete mark. Modifications to correct errors in the design taking place...
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

Jedinovice wrote:Marvelous! Good for you. Even if I could afford all that… there is no way I could justify the cost to the wife. I am getting away with the laptop (re)build because of special circumstances and because it saves he cost of an all new, even bottom of the range, laptop.
@Jedinovice
Well, lucky for me, both my wife and I were born and raised in Eastern Europe (Romania), where most people are still old fashioned into thinking that the MEN decides in most matters, including the use of the family finances, not the women....
Basically, my philosophy is simple: SINCE I'M THE ONE THAT MAKES MOST OF IT, it is only right that I get to spend most of it, without having to ask permission when doing that...
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by JosephM »

I'll admit I didn't read through whole thread since it's 90% unrelated but to your original question. The only real advantage of using 64-bit is the ability to use more memory. If you only have 1 or 2 GB I don't really see you gaining much advantage.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

JosephM wrote:I'll admit I didn't read through whole thread since it's 90% unrelated but to your original question. The only real advantage of using 64-bit is the ability to use more memory. If you only have 1 or 2 GB I don't really see you gaining much advantage.
@JosephM:
You are totally wrong about the 64bit.
First off, only Window$ is impaired in addressing over 4GB of RAM in 32bit mode, not Linux, which uses the PAE Kernel (Physical Address Extension), see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_ ... ft_Windows
and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_ ... sion#Linux
There is much, much more to it then just the ability to access RAM in excess of 4GB in 64bit vs 32bit.
Certain higher functions of a 64bit architecture CPU are only available in a 64bit Operating System.
See here, and please scroll up and down the page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_co ... s_and_cons

NO OFFENSE, but unless you know what you're actually talking about, quit giving bad advice...
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

@Jedinovice:

Since your initial question was regarding the video processing / encoding, please DO NOT LISTEN to people telling you to go the 32bit Linux way, install the 64bit version.
Please read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_co ... s_and_cons

Some 64-bit programs, such as encoders, decoders and encryption software, can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers,...
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Doruletz wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:Marvelous! Good for you. Even if I could afford all that… there is no way I could justify the cost to the wife. I am getting away with the laptop (re)build because of special circumstances and because it saves he cost of an all new, even bottom of the range, laptop.
@Jedinovice
Well, lucky for me, both my wife and I were born and raised in Eastern Europe (Romania), where most people are still old fashioned into thinking that the MEN decides in most matters, including the use of the family finances, not the women....
Basically, my philosophy is simple: SINCE I'M THE ONE THAT MAKES MOST OF IT, it is only right that I get to spend most of it, without having to ask permission when doing that...
Just to say... it's a mutual arrangement.
And I am a computer romantic. I don't mind using minimal hardware.
I'm just weird. Nod, smile, walk away carefully.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Doruletz wrote:@Jedinovice:

Since your initial question was regarding the video processing / encoding, please DO NOT LISTEN to people telling you to go the 32bit Linux way, install the 64bit version.
Please read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_co ... s_and_cons

Some 64-bit programs, such as encoders, decoders and encryption software, can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers,...
Drat! Internet went down and I lost my post to you!

OK, thanks for your data re: 64 bit processing. And thank you for focussing on the question in, er, question.

I am familiar with the benefits of 64 bit processing for video encoding. As I understand it, it can equal up to a 20% speed improvement which would be significant on the atom.

The question was whether the extra RAM load from 64 bit code would prove too much to bear with only 1GB especially when running KDE. As it is, the problem has gone away because I have a nice, shiny, new 1GB single channel DDR3 RAM stick to plug in when restoration/recreation is complete.
I think we hit the 60% mark today.

So now there is no issue. I can go 64 bit quite happily and I know KDE will run to my speed requirements.

The only problem left is people's heads exploding. I gotta do work type stuff now but I figure I ;ll post up on the 'Computer Romantic' sometime.

Thanks again for the data! :D
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

Jedinovice wrote:
Doruletz wrote:@Jedinovice:

Since your initial question was regarding the video processing / encoding, please DO NOT LISTEN to people telling you to go the 32bit Linux way, install the 64bit version.
Please read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_co ... s_and_cons

Some 64-bit programs, such as encoders, decoders and encryption software, can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers,...
Drat! Internet went down and I lost my post to you!

OK, thanks for your data re: 64 bit processing. And thank you for focussing on the question in, er, question.

I am familiar with the benefits of 64 bit processing for video encoding. As I understand it, it can equal up to a 20% speed improvement which would be significant on the atom.

The question was whether the extra RAM load from 64 bit code would prove too much to bear with only 1GB especially when running KDE. As it is, the problem has gone away because I have a nice, shiny, new 1GB single channel DDR3 RAM stick to plug in when restoration/recreation is complete.
I think we hit the 60% mark today.

So now there is no issue. I can go 64 bit quite happily and I know KDE will run to my speed requirements.

The only problem left is people's heads exploding. I gotta do work type stuff now but I figure I ;ll post up on the 'Computer Romantic' sometime.

Thanks again for the data! :D

@Jedinovice:

KDE is a power hog, so with just 1GB of RAM , your little "lappy" would struggle just to run the damn thing.
Besides the fact that it looks and acts weird, not like anything a computer should be (IMHO), the resource eating was a very strong argument in my total dislike of KDE.
I mean like just installing some KDE apps (mentioned above in a previous post), which obviously would require a good chunk of the KDE desktop environment to be able run, is increasing my idle RAM usage in MATE from about 600MB to over 1.2GB (almost double).
A few years back I messed around a little with that PCLinuxOS super KDE on steroids distro (can't remember the exact name of it), and drew this conclusion.
Call me stubborn or old fashioned, but I strongly believe that a PC, regardless if a Desktop or a Laptop, should not look like a teenager "rub your fingers on all day long" gizmo/device or a X-Mas tree with a gazillion different desktops, each taking care of a different part of the action...
Gnome 2 was the perfect desktop environment until some idiot over at Ubuntu decided to scrap it.
Thank God for that dude in Argentina that came up with MATE (pronounced like the Argentine tea drink "yerba mate", not like the Aussie mate, as in "G'day mate").
Not quite 100% the good'ol Gnome 2, but pretty damn close.
Anyhow, KDE is not half as bad as that piece of crap Unity (again IMHO).
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by thom_A »

Doruletz wrote:
JosephM wrote:I'll admit I didn't read through whole thread since it's 90% unrelated but to your original question. The only real advantage of using 64-bit is the ability to use more memory. If you only have 1 or 2 GB I don't really see you gaining much advantage.
@JosephM:
You are totally wrong about the 64bit.
First off, only Window$ is impaired in addressing over 4GB of RAM in 32bit mode, not Linux, which uses the PAE Kernel (Physical Address Extension), see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_ ... ft_Windows
and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_ ... sion#Linux
There is much, much more to it then just the ability to access RAM in excess of 4GB in 64bit vs 32bit.
Certain higher functions of a 64bit architecture CPU are only available in a 64bit Operating System.
See here, and please scroll up and down the page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit_co ... s_and_cons

NO OFFENSE, but unless you know what you're actually talking about, quit giving bad advice...
This reminds me of the thread I started where some of the replies contradicts your post, and suggests that 32bit is preferred, as I understood it.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=225843
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

@Doruletz....

Interesting comment and confirms what I have observed…

There is a subgroup of (particularly Linux( users to whom speed is really, really important - such that they will have a top of the line Intel i7 (6 core?) and then proceed to run Mate or Xfce to maximise speed.

I also note that the same users seem to display the characteristics of INTP's on the Myers-Briggs typology scale.

Linux Torvalds is an INTP - knowledgeable, technical, outspoken, does not hold back and values high intelligence in others alone with efficiency and rationality. [They tend to get extremely narked if they think someone is being irrational or just plain stupid.]

Note that Linus Torvalds always gravitates back to GNOME and he has never been a fan of KDE.

Brief description here:

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html


I am an INFP - only one letter difference but it makes a big difference! We are much, much more sentimental and do not value efficiency as much as creativity and romanticism.

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html

So I end up winding the INTP's up (always have done!) by, in essence saying, "I know it doesn't make sense. I know it's backwards. Yes, I do know the issues… I just want to do it this way." :oops: :mrgreen:

INFP's are the ones who actively choose a Citroen 2CV over a Porsche. (And I would given the chance!)
2CV.jpg
In regards to KDE…

Well, I have a saying; "A man's desktop is his castle." Some gets to choose however their laptop (I've given up talking about 'computer' since these days average Joe just thinks of 'laptop' rather than computer) behaves and looks like.

I have made one exception where there was a coworker who had the MOST AWFUL picture of a Korean drama star - a guy, and it was horrible and I approached her and said; "Normally I would say 'a man's desktop is his castle' and you can set your laptop up anyway and I have no right to complain. But I make one exception here. That wallpaper has to change!"
She actually took my point and changed it immediately!
But I am not known for making such judgements so I was taken seriously!

But generally… I don't begrudge anyone's use of any particular DE. To my mind it''s akin to arguing over one's preference of hot beverage.

Anyway… KDE

The thing with KDE is that there is no 'KDE way of doing things.' Everything is configurable. You want single click to start - you and have it. Double click? Fine. Want desktop shortcuts? OK. Want rid of desktop shortcuts? Fine. Don't like the default menu - switch to two other modes. Don't like the theme - change it. Don;t like the icons - change them. Don't like the colors - change them, Want a panle at the bottom of the screen. Fine. What it at the top. OK. Want two panels - one on top and one on the bottom - OK Sir...

KDE is malleable.

Also, as I say, there is a subset if Linux user to whom speed is everything!
But it's not me and not Joe Public. Most of us are OK with 'fast enough.'
KDE has already run for three years on this little netbook and been fine. It's still faster than any version of Windows.
My wife took the netbook from me on the grounds it was so fast! And she loved (and loves) KDE!

For KDE offers the following benefits:

For my purposes it is fast enough. I do not actually need sped for most of my work. I need portability and battery life more.
I can set up hotkeys with ease in KDE - more than any other DE - though I would like to look at Cinnamon more closely, I have not been afforded the opportunity. I can save huge amounts of time by just pressing a key and opening up my apps and folders as needed without endlessly navigating via mouse and drilling down directory trees. It also impresses students! And eye candy is important to many - though I always turn off effects in any DE but KDE has the 'wow' factor that impresses people.
KDE and QT are tightly intergrated and this shows in the KDE apps. Everything in KDE feels like a whole with Kaffine, K3B, Okular all seeming to match seamlessly and behaving the same way. Also, I use the power of these apps.
That, by the way, is the paradox. I don't need speed for much of my work… I don't play games for a start… but am a content producer and I tend to need that little bit extra power in my apps over average Joe. Because KDE caters to the power users, I generally find the default KDE apps have what I want from the start. Does it mean the apps run a bit slower than their GTK equivalents. Maybe but I don't have to jump from small app to another and another to get what I wanr. Dolphin, for instance, is extremely powerful and I can tailor it to my needs. I don't care if it runs that bit slower than say, Thunar (which I have installed) because I have a one stop shop!
I can change the screen colors. Most users don't care. I can barely think of any users who bother to change their screen colors from the default in any OS! But it's important to me because I choose shades to reduce glare and save my eyes!

And, my video editor of choice… Kdenlive… was written with KDE in mind. While it will run with the QT libraries in Mate… I have gone with the DE the app was written for.

Re: Touchscreen - there I agree with you. Tactile feedback is critical for real world.

But, let's be straight… Average Joe doesn't want buttons! The takeover of the tablet, Chromebook and smartphone has proven that Average Joe's utter hatred/fear of computers has never gone away. Once he was given access to a single purpose 'Facebook' device Jo dropped the desktop and the laptop like a hot brick and embraced his lovely 'internet/comms only' device.

If all you wan to do is send text messages, go on Facebook and watch online movies - a touch screen with big, friendly buttons on the left hand side that just do that… is what 'you' want.

It's an issue when you want to produce something. But, let's be straight, outside of the office, how many users produce even a single page of A4 text? The most they produce is an occasional letter - and often at work.

Touchscreens are those who, at heart, just want a smartphone. Canonical have plugged into that desire with Unity. When I ask the totally technophobic whether they would wan to use a OS that behaved like a smartphone they have been delighted!

Anyway, it's all good. You can run Mate with an eye on speed and I'll run KDE on my netbook.

Bear in mind that I can of a (gentle) contrary nature. I've run Word for Windows on an 8086 in 64K of RAM. No, seriously. Windows 3.0, Word for Windows 1.0.
Last edited by Jedinovice on Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

thom_A wrote: This reminds me of the thread I started where some of the replies contradicts your post, and suggests that 32bit is preferred, as I understood it.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=225843

Hi!

I get what you're saying but my question was the gain in video decoding speed - where 64bit does make a difference - and the trade off in speed from RAM usage.

As I say, problem solved by getting more RAM. With 2GB I can run KDE 54 bit at an acceptable (Citroen 2CV?) speed.

The problem is now completing the build.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by thom_A »

Jedinovice wrote:Hi!

I get what you're saying but my question was the gain in video decoding speed - where 64bit does make a difference - and the trade off in speed from RAM usage.

As I say, problem solved by getting more RAM. With 2GB I can run KDE 54 bit at an acceptable (Citroen 2CV?) speed.

The problem is now completing the build.
Oh I didn't even understand some of the responses in the link I posted and I'm still not sure which one is correct. So you can basically ignore it and use what you prefer. And I use 64bit.

Here's what was posted by the poster named "rene":

"No. The PAE situation was cunningly encoded in the two words "directly accessible" in my above statement which I thought I'd get away with here on the Mint forum.

The original PAE, Physical Address Extension, technology adds 4 bits to the 32-bit physical address for a total physical address space of 64GiB, 2 to the power 36, but only in a global sense. The CPU architecture is itself still fully 32-bit and deals with 32-bit addresses only. Each individual process is therefore also with PAE still limited to a directly accessible 4GiB space, with only the kernel having the option of having that 4GiB space be for separate processes windows onto separate 4GiB physical memory regions (well, see later). This means that the above 3-1 kernel/user address space split features issue-wise unchanged between PAE and non-PAE kernels.

Now that you got me to expand though, I should really also specify that the split is really itself a "mere" optimization. Explicitly noting PAE to until further notice not feature in this, certainly the kernel could in fact elect to give both user and kernel a 4GiB address space each, and back when 32-bit was still relevant patches to that effect existed. With, again, the CPU architecture fully 32-bit this however means that a process needs to address through a different set of page tables -- structures that provide for translation from the by kernel and processes spoken virtual addresses to physical addresses -- depending on whether it's running in user- or kernel-mode since each single set, a page directory, can only deal with 4GiB.

These page tables reside in memory themselves and are cached on-CPU in what is called the TLB, the Translation Lookaside Buffer. When switching tables upon a process' entry into the kernel and again upon return to user space we need to invalidate this cache, need to "flush the TLB", and start repopulating it directly from memory all over again --- and this is one of the slowest things you could imagine your CPU to be doing, certainly back then when memory-speed was hugely lagging CPU clock-speed. Linux wants/ed to at all cost avoid this TLB flush penalty, hence shares the same set of tables between user and kernel space, hence allows for per-process 4Gib total only.

In the 32-bit kernel configuration you can adjust the standard 3-1 split to 2-2, 1-3 and two slightly tweaked version of the first two but the 4-4 option you will not find. Note also that with for example the 1-3 split you now of course only have 1GiB for user space and that the 32-bit machines with back then large amounts of memory that technically would've wanted a bigger kernel space tended to have said large amounts specifically to for example run large databases in user space, thereby wanting a large user space as well. There was and is really no good solution even technically other than going 64-bit once you go over 2GiB physical, or even 1GiB/896MiB already as per original reply and standard setup.

PAE -- a slight further note. After all this page table switcheroo talk you could be wondering if as long as per above the kernel has with PAE the option to address 64GiB of memory total, then why couldn't it through for the purpose specific interfaces provide this option to individual process? Conjuring up images of also already mentioned DOS-era expanded memory, the answer is that it technically could. And that as far as I am aware it has never, with steady stomach, considered doing so. Single user-addressable structures would still be limited to (less than) the user space size, and the model would be an utter mess generally. Also see the bit above about 64-bit entering at the point where any of this became even halfway relevant in the first place.

So, no, PAE does not change this specific issue. And see how those two words "directly accessible" were much shorter than the above? :roll:

Let me then finally note that PAE has been part of the CPU architecture since the Pentium Pro (1995) and the phrase "standard kernel" would at this point include PAE kernels. In this case I used the adjective "standard" to refer to a 32-bit kernel configured for a 3-1 split rather than the other options. And finally-finally, that our current AMD64 architecture started life as an extension of PAE by AMD -- but that otherwise one should at this point feel perfectly free to consider PAE even less relevant than 32-bit in and of itself."

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=225843

Let's see if we can have a rebuttal from Doruletz,
Jedinovice
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Hi Thom_A...

Thanks for th data - I think I read that thread moons back.
The data above is in relation to memory addressing, specifically memory above 4GB and relative speeds of access.

It has no bearing on video decoding. It's OK, my problem is solved!
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

[quote="Jedinovice"][/quote]
Just watched your https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs video...
You run WINE???
I was always under the impression that Linux Users want nothing to do with Mr. Bill Gates and his box of snakes... AT LEAST I DON'T!
The very first thing I do once I install any Linux is to completely remove "MONO", the Microsoft .NET FRAMEWORK layer, with all it's products (WINE, PlayOnLinux, Banshee, Tomboy Notes). Next step, I block my PC from ever installing anything MONO related in the future.
You do know that using any Windows app in Linux via WINE, PlayOnLinux or any other MONO based app is an open invitation for Windows Malware and other crap, right?
Read here:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... o-and-Orca
He does not give instructions on how to block MONO from ever installing again, but here they are:
================================================================================
You can remove the whole "MONO" pack altogether...
sudo apt-get --purge remove libmono* cli-common* mono-runtime*
To prevent "MONO" or any app/program that requires "MONO" to ever install again:
Open this file as administrator:
/etc/apt/preferences.d/official-extra-repositories.pref
and add these lines at the end

================================================================================
Package: cli-common mono-runtime
Pin: version *
Pin-Priority: -100
================================================================================
SAVE.

ALSO RUN:
sudo apt-get autoremove
================================================================================
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
Jedinovice
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Thanks but.. I'm fine.

1) It was demoing what was possible under Linux, not my actual use case scenario. A lot of potential Linux users have their heads spin when they see Office running under Linux. I never use it, mind, and I doubt I would even be able to get 2010 activated now.
2) The laptop that was used to create that demo has since been utterly destroyed! Wrecked by water from a leaking roof and it was hells own job getting compensation from the cowboys who caused the damage!
3) I do use WINE... to run 'Knights of the old Republic.' It serves no other purpose for now but I may have to use it to run some language testing apps in the near future. So I have to have an eye on using MONO and the like.. though I don;t know what I can do with VM's yet.
4) The great thing about Linux is that if anything really did go wrong... I could/can just re-install and start over which, with Mint, is dead easy. Windows... it's now all but impossible.

and... with respect... I know what I'm doing and I ran my laptops the way I please, even if it seems irrational to some.

Thanks so much.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

Jedinovice wrote:...
3) I do use WINE... to run 'Knights of the old Republic.' It serves no other purpose for now but I may have to use it to run some language testing apps in the near future. So I have to have an eye on using MONO and the like.. though I don;t know what I can do with VM's yet.
4) The great thing about Linux is that if anything really did go wrong... I could/can just re-install and start over which, with Mint, is dead easy. Windows... it's now all but impossible.

and... with respect... I know what I'm doing and I ran my laptops the way I please, even if it seems irrational to some.

Thanks so much.

3) You don't need MONO to run VM's. Virtualbox runs inside 100% Linux, regardless if the Guest OS is Windows, Linux or anything else.
If for any reason I need anything Windows, I just install it in a VM, that way it stays inside a sandbox. Microsoft even offers ready to run VM's.
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... ct/oldgrub
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/m ... tools/vms/
Although I prefer installing it from scratch, even if I don't ever enter a COA Key to activate it.
The legit Windows OS installers are (or were at some point) also available for download from DIGITALRIVER and similar Microsoft tolerated sites.
Once installed to VM, I also install all the Windows Updates and apps/soft I want to mess around with, I save the whole VM drive somewhere for future use, and start anew after the 90 day evaluation period runs out.
The downsize to all that is that running games or any other heavy duty graphic app in a VM is close to impossible, since you do need to have full access to your Graphics Card.
There are ways to do a graphics passthrough, where the VM Guest OS gets exclusive access to your Graphics Card, but that implies having 2 of those physically installed in your system, to be able to keep one for Linux and one for the Windows VM.
But that is a whole other matter, and the result it's hid and miss at best, the whole setup process being a very complicated or close to impossible task to achieve.

4) All you said here I agree with 100%...
I also re-install my Linux quite often (at least 2-3 times between 2 consecutive LTS releases), and I got some quick reference HOW TO's saved in a TXT file to speed up the whole process. It takes just over an hour for me to do it all.
Jedinovice wrote:and... with respect... I know what I'm doing and I ran my laptops the way I please, even if it seems irrational to some.
Of course you do, I was just pointing out some DO'S and DON'TS.
I'm always trying to pass on useful info from my experience, as I also appreciate when I find such info from others.
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
Jedinovice
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Jedinovice »

Doruletz wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:and... with respect... I know what I'm doing and I ran my laptops the way I please, even if it seems irrational to some.
Of course you do, I was just pointing out some DO'S and DON'TS.
I'm always trying to pass on useful info from my experience, as I also appreciate when I find such info from others.
Fair comment. Too brain tired for a longer reply. Just thanks for now.

A bit war weary from various people telling I shouldn't do this, I should do this, I should buy this, I should use this...
There's a certain point when it's my choice and my 'funeral.' I can always re-install.

Thanks again.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Doruletz
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Re: Worth going 64bit for video editing (on an Atom!)

Post by Doruletz »

Jedinovice wrote:
Doruletz wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:and... with respect... I know what I'm doing and I ran my laptops the way I please, even if it seems irrational to some.
Of course you do, I was just pointing out some DO'S and DON'TS.
I'm always trying to pass on useful info from my experience, as I also appreciate when I find such info from others.
Fair comment. Too brain tired for a longer reply. Just thanks for now.

A bit war weary from various people telling I shouldn't do this, I should do this, I should buy this, I should use this...
There's a certain point when it's my choice and my 'funeral.' I can always re-install.

Thanks again.
I totally understand the way you feel, buddy.
If it helps, let me tell you this: I always take what other people tell me "with a grain of salt".
And I always apply logic and common sense to everything, and I doubt everything until solid proof is presented and it's all starting to make sense to me.
Kinda like one of those science vs religion sort of deals... I don't believe in anything or do anything just because something or somebody tells me to do so, I need proof.
That is also why whenever I say something I always present proof, as you probably noticed already...
What do I think about Window$??? Just take a look at my AVATAR...
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