My review of Mint 18

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rhY
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by rhY » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:55 pm

I'm genuinely glad that so many systems are running OK for people with SystemD.

This has not been my experience at all. I've had to revert many, many servers, desktops, and hypervisors back to Wheezy, or over to Devuan, mostly due to constant crashing. My review was completely honest. To suggest I was just trolling or trying to "stir the pot" is really asinine. Why would a working professional waste time with that?

Unfortunately, because anything based on Debian 8 is so unstable (literally have not had ONE install that did not require weekly or less reboots, I leave my machines running for months and years at a time), this has created a nightmare scenario for me supporting clients who now have no upgrade path with out some type of radical revision.

I enjoy a good conspiracy theory. Obviously. These are just theories. I don't know what happened to Ian. Neither do you. We weren't there.

But I DO no what happened to Debian, and it's a bloody disgusting mess. As is everything that Poettering touches (and has touched for 10+ years of being exposed to his crappy monolithic and buggy code).

SystemD is broken BY DESIGN. It's a monolithic replacement of many separate extremely stable and easy to manage tools that have been slowly evolving for decades. We're throwing out all our best genes for slightly better boot times. From an evolutionary standpoint, this is clearly suicide.

My reports of crashing and requiring reboots (on servers, laptops, AND desktops) are completely genuine. If you have had a different experience, congratulations! But for someone who counts uptime as more important than boot time, there is absolutely no way I can be involved in any way with Debian 8 or it's derivatives.

And I don't come to OS forums often. To suggest the fact I haven't been back recently somehow makes my original post less valuable is absurd. Do they teach logic in schools any more?

/edit

I DO have one machine running fairly reliably with SystemD (so far). It's an LMDE2 Mate machine with all the updates installed. I can only claim hours of uptime so far, but given that all of the other machines were requiring reboots in less time than this, I'm cautiously optimistic I can just leave this thing as it is. I'd REALLY like to go back in time, get LMDE pre systemd and then configure my apt to avoid all systemd. But I haven't gotten around to that yet. I have too much real work to do.

/edit again

So, yeah, I just had to alt+ctl+backspace the LMDE systemd poison pill system. So that makes my experience with systemd a 100% fail rate in under 24 hours on every tested configuration.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by JohnF76 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:42 pm

Hmm, you might find these two articles interesting:

https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/systemd ... urity_dust

https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_ ... _one_tweet

I wish we had a way to get rid of systemd in Mint, or at least giving the option of openrc or something else. Based on their responses to obvious security flaws, I don't have a lot of faith in any system that's going to depend on it.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by Pjotr » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:50 pm

Guys, what are you still doing here? :shock:

Most of the Linux world has adopted systemd. Including Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Fact of life. No amount of complaining, venting and heartbreaking bitter tears will ever change that. Live with it.

However, in the fringes of the vast Linux ecosystem there are still some distro's to be found that didn't. So don't bore us here with your endless and pointless repetitive negativity, switch to one of those and live happily ever after.
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by JohnF76 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:22 pm

Guys, what are you still doing here?

Must be my mistake. I thought this was a discussion forum. Apparently, that's not the case.

Most of the Linux world has adopted systemd. Including Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Fact of life. No amount of complaining, venting and heartbreaking ideological dismay will ever change that. Live with it.

Funny, the last person to say something like that to me was a windows user. I didn't think that the Mint community was like that, nor Clem.

However, in the fringes of the vast Linux ecosystem there are still some distro's to be found that didn't. So don't bore us here with your endless and pointless repetitive negativity, switch to one of those and live happily ever after.

Oh, so when we talk about flaws in systemd (one of the articles I quoted mentioned a TWO year old flaw in systemd that would allow a tweet in Ubuntu to crash a system), we're being negative? I'll remember not to bring up flaws in the beta's, then. We wouldn't want to get Clem upset...or even worst, bored!

There are significant numbers of Linux users who would disagree with you on being on the "fringe", including users of PClinuxoS, Gentoo, and all the versions of Slackware. While I understand Clem's reasons for going with systemd, I don' t think he would blow off discussions like this...it really isn't his style, from what I've seen of his comments.

He's also been very supportive of other distros as well, even if they don't go in the same direction he has with systemd. For example, he's been very supportive of Tex's efforts with PCLinuxOS over the years.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by DeMus » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:15 pm

rhY wrote:Unfortunately, because anything based on Debian 8 is so unstable (literally have not had ONE install that did not require weekly or less reboots, I leave my machines running for months and years at a time), this has created a nightmare scenario for me supporting clients who now have no upgrade path with out some type of radical revision.
I've read this discussion and although I am sure your initial post is genuine I don't think you can simply say systemd is a bad thing and everything based on it is unstable.
I, as do so many others, prove the difference. My system, SolydK, is installed last year I guess so by now it is working almost a year without problems. SolydK is based on Debian which is using systemd. As do so many other computers from others who have installed a system using systemd.

What did you do with your systems that made them so unstable, what programs do you use, what is your setup, what kind of hardware? How are you so sure systemd is the cause for all your problems?

I hope you will think about your post and try to find out the real cause of the problems.

deleted

Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by deleted » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:21 pm

agreed...
When you (in my case, me) have to google "systemd" or "systemd problems" when you use Linux as your primary OS [for C/C++, Java Development, as well as for leisure], it tends to show that you (again, me) really aren't affected by systemd.
-H

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rhY
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by rhY » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:21 am

DeMus wrote:
rhY wrote:Unfortunately, because anything based on Debian 8 is so unstable (literally have not had ONE install that did not require weekly or less reboots, I leave my machines running for months and years at a time), this has created a nightmare scenario for me supporting clients who now have no upgrade path with out some type of radical revision.
I've read this discussion and although I am sure your initial post is genuine I don't think you can simply say systemd is a bad thing and everything based on it is unstable.
I, as do so many others, prove the difference. My system, SolydK, is installed last year I guess so by now it is working almost a year without problems. SolydK is based on Debian which is using systemd. As do so many other computers from others who have installed a system using systemd.

What did you do with your systems that made them so unstable, what programs do you use, what is your setup, what kind of hardware? How are you so sure systemd is the cause for all your problems?

I hope you will think about your post and try to find out the real cause of the problems.
Variety of things, really, servers, laptops, desktops.... Lots of different OSes too. Debian 8, Mint 18, Ubuntu, CentOS. I do a lot of server installs, so I try a lot of different OSes for different tasks (SQL servers, owncloud, FOG, wiki, FTP, backup, virtualization), and give them all a vigorous testing so I know which one really performs well. Literally every machine/scenario I've tried, I've had to reboot within < 24 hours on a machine with systemD.

Maybe I'm just phenomenally unlucky. But I've got many Win 7 machines, old LMDE machines (without updates), old opensuse machines, old centos 6 machines and plenty of Wheezy machines that NEVER have issues, and measure uptimes in years, or until I reboot them myself for some reason. I doubt it's my luck. My experiences with Poettering's previous work leads me to believe the culprit is most likely his monolithic junk, as usual. I could be wrong. But I supremely doubt it.

I've been meaning to try SolydK. Will give that a shot.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by rhY » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:24 am

Pjotr wrote:Guys, what are you still doing here? :shock:

Most of the Linux world has adopted systemd. Including Ubuntu and Linux Mint. Fact of life. No amount of complaining, venting and heartbreaking bitter tears will ever change that. Live with it.

However, in the fringes of the vast Linux ecosystem there are still some distro's to be found that didn't. So don't bore us here with your endless and pointless repetitive negativity, switch to one of those and live happily ever after.
Nice attitude. I wrote a blog post about the "consensus view". In my opinion, the current trend to embrace systemd is just a "consensus view".

https://crhylove.wordpress.com/2016/07/ ... consensus/

I think a lot of people will be moving away from it again, I just wish they wouldn't waste their time integrating it in the first place.

As a Debian refugee, most of the alternatives are not really ready for primetime yet, compared to Wheezy stability. That's why all the negativity. We got screwed, we don't have a working alternative yet, besides holding everything back to Wheezy.

deleted

Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by deleted » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:14 am

^ Argumentum ad populum
Darn my Liberal Arts college....
I went so I could learn to talk at dinner parties; Now that I'm a computer geek, I don't get invited to dinner parties.
Who knew it would someday come in handy? ;)
-H

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by Pjotr » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:03 am

OK, let's turn all philosophical.... :lol:

When most people believe something to be true, that doesn't make it true. But that doesn't make it *untrue*, either. :mrgreen:

So let's ask with Pontius Pilatus, who was well educated in Greek philosophy, like all Roman aristocrats: what is truth?

Are we with Plato or are we with Aristotle?
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/engl_258 ... stotle.htm

The early Christians no doubt preferred Plato: the entire gospel of John is almost pure Neoplatonism and aimed straight at winning the hearts and minds of the Greeks and Romans, among whom at that time Neoplatonism was very popular. "In the beginning was the Logos (the Word), and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."

But like Thomas Aquinas and the other medieval Scholasticists I say: give me Aristotle anytime. :mrgreen:
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by deleted » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:10 am

Nice segue.
I'm just glad I'm outta the cave ;)
-H

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by Fred Barclay » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:16 pm

Pjotr wrote: So let's ask with Pontius Pilatus, who was well educated in Greek philosophy, like all Roman aristocrats: what is truth?
:lol:
That's always a good question to ask, with computers and with life. :)
Pjotr wrote:But like Thomas Aquinas and the other medieval Scholasticists I say: give me Aristotle anytime.
Nah. I'm a combo of both. I appreciate Plato's idea of a higher truth, but where would we be without Aristotle's scientific method?
(Though the man did--inadvertently, perhaps--delay true science in the Western world by millennia.)
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by millpond » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:28 pm

rhY wrote:
I DO have one machine running fairly reliably with SystemD (so far). It's an LMDE2 Mate machine with all the updates installed.
While Betsy 'has' systemd installed, it does not use it for init. Its still SysV.

In fact even Devuan contains systemd, as well it should. But only to be used for OPTIONAL programs that might want/need it.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by samriggs » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:30 am

Just got a new laptop and installed mint18 on it (cinnamon) no complaints and was very surprised how well it is running, I was worried about systemd but so far no complaints, I don't know about servers since I don't run any except for personal stuff and testing, so I can't comment how it runs on servers, but for my work station it's all good so far.
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by MurphCID » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:43 am

I am thinking of going to Mint 18 XFCE on the Spouse-Unit's old laptop after I get her the new one, and this guy loves 17.3 XFCE: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linu ... -xfce.html so I am hoping that 18 is just as good. He HATES 18 for some reason. I think that I want to try XFCE.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by pdhunter1987 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:11 pm

I don't agree at all with this article.
Mint 18 unstable?
Not for me.
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by recluce » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:21 am

Unfortunately, I have not been that lucky with systemd and Mint 18. I have one machine where it works without a problem (ancient Dell D630 notebook), but this machine is fairly vanilla in configuration and does not do anything outlandish.

Not so on my Precision M4500 notebook that runs docked with two external screens and a bunch of additional hardware and undocked just with the onboard stuff. I have run successfully the following flavours of Linux on that machine: Ubuntu 10.04, 12.04, Mint 13 and 17.

With Mint 18, this reliable machine becomes unreliable:

If Mint 18 is installed while docked, the notebook unpredictably fails to go to sleep when undocked or to resume successfully. Boot process is lightning fast while docked (SSD), but takes more than one minute when not docked. Shutdown does not work when undocked, requiring a hard shutdown. Excessive battery consumption and mysterious crashes on top of that, all while not docked. Nothing useful in the log files, which are a b**** to use with systemd due to binary format.

Oh - and some random boot fails with systemd - could these be due to race conditions caused by too aggressive parallelisation of init tasks?

I might have believed in a hardware error, but: the notebook works like a charm with Manjaro OpenRC Cinnamon, docked or undocked. No systemd there, except a compatibility layer for some software. Startup is about 1.5 sec slower than Mint 18. Big deal, 7.5 sec instead of 6...

So while I love Mint, it is Poetering's magic software that seems to force me away from it: 2 HTPCs due to Pulseaudio (which does not do correct AC3/DTS passthrough to S/PDIF, no matter what I tried) and now my personal notebook. My main desktop system will stay on Mint 17 until support runs out, hopefully the systemd issues have been fixed by then. If not, there is always Cinnamon with Manjaro OpenRC - thanks to Cinnamon, the look and feel is mostly the same.

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by deepakdeshp » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:30 am

@recluse
Please try latest supported kernel version from update manager. I hope you have cleanly installed Mint18 and not upgraded from Mint 17. Upgrade gives a lot of strange problems, is my own experience.
If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
I am using Mint 19.1 Cinnamon 64 bit with AMD A8/7410 processor . Memory 8GB

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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by kc1di » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:04 am

Ii have to say that I've experienced none of the problems with Mint 18 that this fellow has spoken of. Then I'm not a sys admin but it's been stable. Only problem I've had is some latency with Google Chrome on some web sites , but that is Chrome and my slower than normal internet speeds. not Mint's problem. Mint 18 is as far as I can tell a very stable platform and I would have no problem recommending it to others. It fact just installed it on my Son's Laptop the other day and it's running flawlessly.
On my own machines I use XFCE , because I like it. On his he wanted Cinnamon and it's working well also.

So don't panic Your not going to find a better desktop linux than Mint. I know I've tried many and Mint is the one that almost always works for me.

Happy Minting :)
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Re: My review of Mint 18

Post by kc1di » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:33 am

MurphCID wrote:I am thinking of going to Mint 18 XFCE on the Spouse-Unit's old laptop after I get her the new one, and this guy loves 17.3 XFCE: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linu ... -xfce.html so I am hoping that 18 is just as good. He HATES 18 for some reason. I think that I want to try XFCE.
No I don't think he hate 18 as much as he hates Poettering's code. And he is welcome to his opinion, I've just not noticed the dire problems he has had.
18 runs fine for me and others that I've recommended it to. -- give it a try. you'll only loose a day or so if it does not pan out for you.
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