Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

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Pavlov
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Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by Pavlov »

I've been exploring the Linux world for about three years or so, starting with Ubuntu 14.04, then Mint 17.1 and now Mint 17.3. I dual boot this on my test/travel laptop, originally running WIN 7, but upgraded to WIN 10 earlier this year, and subsequently upgraded to the Anniversary edition. I also have a tower that runs Win 7 Ultimate as my main work box and file server, a couple of printers, a scanner and a WD 1Tb media player - all networked together. I have been using Samba to handle the network file sharing under Linux and all was good until earlier this year when that bad update was released for Samba. After days of reading and trying different things, I managed to roll back to the previous Samba release and all was good, but in that process disabled the ability to switch between the Intel display drivers and the Nvidia drivers - not a big deal because I don't do anything on the laptop that needs the Nvidia drivers.

Sometime in the last two weeks, an update hosed Samba. At least I presume it was an update because Samba was now the latest 4.3.11. I didn't notice until over the weekend that I only had one-way communication - my Windows file server could access the file shares on the laptop, but Nemo could not access the file shares on my Windows box. I worked on it for awhile yesterday and got nowhere, so I shut down and went to bed. When I booted into Linux this morning, I had no shares across the network - Windows saw the file shares in Linux, but said I had no permissions; Nemo saw the Windows network, but it too said I had no permissions. Nothing I did yesterday had anything to do with permissions and the one-way communication had not changed when I shut down for the night.

I used Xenopeek's Samba rollback method and was able to re-establish one-way communication from Windows, but Nemo still wasn't cooperating. However, I did determine Samba was running correctly by entering my WIN server's url in Nemo's search bar.

So here's my dilemma - I now am halfway back to where things should be, but... that's the problem. This is the 21st century - This stuff should just work!

If I stay in my Windows environment, everything just works. I don't have to go hunting down packages to install; I don't have to spend hours in a command window typing arcane scripts (30+ years ago I thought that was cool, but I no longer have the time or the patience); there's no need to enter passwords to do simple things (it's my network, there's no one else around)...

I like Linux's small footprint and speed. It runs 95% of the software I use and the other 5% I can live without. But I am having doubts if that is enough to keep me going down the Linux path. :?

Oh, and I just plugged in my Android phone - Nemo doesn't even know it's there. :( At least it still see's the WD media player, probably because it runs on Linux. I'm at a loss - I really feel I'm wasting my time.

Thanks for listening.
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jimallyn
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by jimallyn »

There was something I needed to install to get Mint 17.3 to work with my Android phone. I did a search for "Android" on my computer, and I think it was jmtpfs I installed.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by Pavlov »

jimallyn wrote:There was something I needed to install to get Mint 17.3 to work with my Android phone. I did a search for "Android" on my computer, and I think it was jmtpfs I installed.
Hehe... you're making my point for me, jimallyn. Before this latest Samba meltdown, I had no problem viewing and transferring files with my phone. Saying I need to find "something" to make it work now, well... Back in the mid-80s when I first started using PC-XT's, PC-AT's, an Amiga 2000 with a Video Toaster... yeah, digging for stuff to "make it work" was fun. This is now, the 21st century - we've moved beyond that, it should just work.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by jimallyn »

Making your point for you, huh? Well, I will no longer use an operating system (or an office suite, or anything else) from a corporation that has been convicted of illegal monopoly tactics several times. I will not use an operating system that is a virus magnet. I will not use an operating system that allows Microsoft to read everything on my hard drive: all my files, all my emails, and so on - and to share my information with their "trusted partners." So, if I have to install another piece of software now and then, I'm fine with that. Besides, many of the applications I use were installed with the operating system, and none of it cost me a penny. But, it's your choice, use whatever you like. I'll stick with Linux and other open source software.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by Pavlov »

What a tired old argument. I've had the same one with one of my best friends back in 87 or so. Boring. My buddy really hated Bill Gates. I didn't think much of him, but he was better than Steve Jobs. But let me ask - do you work for a corporation? Do they know how you feel about having to use their awful, intrusive software?

My WIN 10 OS didn't cost me anything, and it's a legal, licensed copy. Same with the WIN 7 on my desktop. And I have turned off all of MS's tracking stuff, all they get is the make and model of my computer - kinda like the license plate readers on the street lamps up in your neck of the woods. And while you can't stop WIN 10's auto update, you can delay it and if something isn't kosher, keep it from updating.

I'll admit some of my applications are open source, but I have also paid for a lot of them. And many times during my career, I had no choice but to use "corporate" operating systems because that was what the software was written for, not some open source, unsupported OS.

As for viruses, if you know what you're doing it's a lame argument. 99% of malware infections are due to the person at the keyboard.

I do find it interesting that instead of trying to convince me to stick it out with Linux, you basically told me to bugger off. Way to support what you supposedly believe in.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by jimallyn »

No, I did not tell you to bugger off. If you want to continue to use Linux, people here - myself included - will be happy to help you out if they can. But in order to get help, you will have to post your problem in the appropriate section of the forums. Your post here in Chat isn't likely to get you any help.

No, I don't work for a corporation. I am retired. If I did work for a corporation, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them that I prefer not to use awful, intrusive software. I used to own my own business and used both open source software and proprietary commercial software. I prefer to use open source if it's available, but will use proprietary commercial software if I must. At the moment, open source fills all my needs.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by altair4 »

Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10
Pavlov wrote:Hehe... you're making my point for me, jimallyn. Before this latest Samba meltdown, I had no problem viewing and transferring files with my phone. Saying I need to find "something" to make it work now, well... Back in the mid-80s when I first started using PC-XT's, PC-AT's, an Amiga 2000 with a Video Toaster... yeah, digging for stuff to "make it work" was fun. This is now, the 21st century - we've moved beyond that, it should just work.
The choice is obvious. Go with Windows 10.

Linux on the desktop has always been for the lunatic fringe. Can you make it work? Of course you can. Is it going to be like a Windows or macOS? I don't think it will ever be that way.

On operating system is made up of 5000 moving parts. At a Microsoft or Apple all of those moving parts are under the control of one entity and individual teams are forced to work together towards a common goal ... well ... OK ... in theory anyway. In Linux they are made up of 5000 individual developers or teams with no hortator so they have their own schedules, design objectives, and measures of when something is "finished".

An Ubuntu, or Mint, or Fedora has no control over the vast majority of what goes into it.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by thom_A »

You don't have to have this dilemma if you just accept that dual or multi-booting is never a bad thing.
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phd21
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by phd21 »

Hi "Pavlov",

It would help to know more about your system setup. If you run "inxi -Fxzd" from the console terminal prompt, highlight the results, copy and paste them back here, that should provide enough information.

I just read your post and the replies to it. Here are my thoughts on this as well.

There is nothing wrong with using MS Windows, or Mac, etc ... Most of the people using Linux Mint came from those environments, and usually dual booted with one of those operating systems, until they realized they could do most if not everything as good or better with Linux Mint and definitely more securely. As far as I know, only "gamers" need to have MS Windows for playing some of their MS Windows only games, but that can be done now through "Steam", or VirtualBox, or dual booting, and that gets better weekly.

I used MS Windows for a very long time, personally and for business, and your comment "This is the 21st century - This stuff should just work!" simply does not apply to any operating system and all installed software all the time, regardless whether it is MS windows, Mac, or Linux. FYI: There are 4 wonderful main editions to Linux Mint: Cinnamon, Mate, KDE, Xfce; you might find that one works better for your hardware over another.

It can take a little time and effort for people coming from another operating system to adjust to another operating system like Linux Mint. I have noticed that this is even more of a problem with people who considered themselves to be good and comfortable, or experts, in another operating system, but are not with Linux or Linux Mint, and as a a result they are impatient. But, most people can boot up to or install Linux Mint and be able to use it effectively in minutes to do most of what people typically do with computers, surfing the web, email, using an office suite, playing music, or videos, etc...

Networking computers is not a newbie or simple task, especially with computers using different operating systems. I don't think it is a particularly difficult task, but I am a seasoned computer person. There are some very knowledgeable people in this forum that will gladly help you with most anything, if you are polite and ask nicely. But, it is a free forum, so it may take a little time and some back and forth effort to diagnose and resolve some issues. This can be made more difficult if a piece of software had a bad update, like Samba did.

Like me, a lot of people now using Linux Mint, got tired of having to constantly maintain Ms Windows and all the necessary security precautions. In MS Windows, any responsible user must maintain up to date anti-virus applications, and anti-malware applications, which need constant updates, and need to be run weekly or more. You have to defragment your hard drives, and run registry maintenance, at least monthly or more. And, the frequent Microsoft updates seemed to take forever to install. Then, you have all the other software on your system each with their own separate updates, etc... With Linux Mint 99% of all updates are done through the Mint Update Manager are are usually pretty quick, you do not need to install or use anti-virus or anti-malware although you can, and there is no registry maintenance or defragmenting that needs to be done. When I was using MS Windows, I along with my computers spent more time doing this than being productive. And, if you did not do these, then your system could and would eventually crash requiring you to restore from a backup or have to re-install MS Windows which takes an incredibly long time. Anyone can install Linux Mint in about 16 minutes or less.

If you are using MS Windows for your file server and multi-media server(s) then using Samba networking seems to be the correct way to go, although you could also use SSH (openSSH). If you do not need to use MS Windows for a file server because of work, then you could easily setup a Linux file server (Ubuntu, CentOS, Linux Mint, etc...) Then you have other excellent networking options that do not require using Samba at all. Samba worked great until earlier this years issues, and I thought those were fixed now? Anyway, you have "xenopeek's" methods for restoring the older Samba networking. There are numerous excellent Linux (& Cross Platform) multi-media server and player options available, Kodi (xbmc), Plex HomeTheater, PS3 Media Server, Ultimate Media Server (UMS), etc...

I do not see how the "Samba" networking system would have affected your video drivers? Anyway, you can install the correct video drivers fairly easily, have you checked your "Driver Manager"?

As for you getting MS Windows for free, that is not the case, everyone pays for MS Windows. You may have gotten an update or a newer version for free now, but you paid for some version of it first at some point even as part of your computer purchase. And there is no good free support for MS Windows, yet there is for Linux.
Pavlov wrote:If I stay in my Windows environment, everything just works. I don't have to go hunting down packages to install; I don't have to spend hours in a command window typing arcane scripts (30+ years ago I thought that was cool, but I no longer have the time or the patience); there's no need to enter passwords to do simple things (it's my network, there's no one else around)...
As an ex-software developer using MS Windows, I cannot see how you can claim this. I always had to help my clients, or friends and family, and myself, install drivers for everything from video cards, sound cards, phone software, webcams, mother boards, etc... And although some of which MS Windows updates could find, or those might have been available on CD/DVD, or online, from their respective device manufacturers, I still had to hunt them down whenever I re-installed MS Windows, or added a new piece of hardware, etc... Just because you have MS windows working the way you want it now, does not mean that you or the place you purchased your MS Windows computers did not first have to go through the effort of "hunting down" software and or driver packages, and installing those? And, the Linux Mint repositories (repos), Software Manager or Synaptic Package Manager (SPM), is one of the easiest ways for users to find and install software and or drivers for practically anything you can imagine. Once anyone has their Linux Mint system setup the way they want, their system will run as smoothly as you are claiming that your MS Windows is. I have been running Linux Mint KDE smoothly for years now.

Regarding entering in Passwords: Typically you only need to enter in your password to login, and that can be set to automatic, and when installing new software or when updating your system. Certain other secure software applications might also require this. Entering in passwords is a smart safe thing to do, and it is not difficult.

The average user does not need to use the console terminal (command prompt) except for the rare maintenance, or for installing software that might not be in the Software Manager or Synaptic Package Manager (SPM). And, there are usually great instructions for doing that which can usually be copied directly from this forum, or a website, and pasted into your console terminal. I do think it is a good idea for people to learn a little about the console terminal and its commands, but that is up to the user.
Pavlov wrote:Oh, and I just plugged in my Android phone - Nemo doesn't even know it's there. :( At least it still see's the WD media player, probably because it runs on Linux.
For some people, you might be able to just connect your device, like your phone, using the USB cable or bluetooth and it just works. For others, you may have to go into the Software Manager or Synaptic Package Manager (SPM), and install some additional software, like the MTP programs (search for "mtp"), or search for Android, and see if anything there might help. OR, you can ask here nicely, and people here can help you. On my MS Windows, using my older phone as a mp3 player, I had to purchase a special USB cable (normal) and buy Motorola software, etc... I can easily connect that to my Linux system and it is automatically recognized as a USB storage device to transfer files back and forth from it.

And again, once you have installed some software, and or a device driver, then you normally do not have to worry about it after that; unless in the rare exception that an update messes it up (like Samba) which can and does occur with any operating system including MS Windows. Usually those updates are corrected quickly in Linux Mint.

Hope this helps ...

Here are some other options for your Android devices (phones, tablets, computers, etc...):

Using "KDE Connect" to Sync your Android Device(s) with Your Linux Computer (if not using Linux Mint KDE, then install the few KDE dependencies below)
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/kde-connec ... oid-linux/

Pushbullet Puts Your Android And PC On The Same Wavelength
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/pushbullet ... avelength/

AirDroid – Send SMS, Share Links, Transfer Files & More
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/airdroid-s ... ndroid-21/

Dukto is a free, Open Source file transfer utility that can be used to used to transfer files over Local area network (LAN), including Linux, Windows, Mac OS X, Meego, Android, Blackberry, Windows Phones and Symbian (for Nokia touch phones).
sudo apt-get install dukto
http://www.unixmen.com/dukto-an-easy-mu ... sfer-tool/

Nitroshare - is a tool that can be used to easily transfer files between computers on your local network, available for Linux, Windows and Mac OS X.
http://www.webupd8.org/2015/03/nitrosha ... es-to.html

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:george-edison55/nitroshare
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install nitroshare

Rapid Photo Downloader
https://mintguide.org/graphics/613-rapi ... =22:1,22:5
If you are not using Linux Mint KDE, and want to be able to run some very high quality KDE applications,
then install these few programs below in the quote box in blue, which are perfectly safe for any edition of Linux mint.
If you're experiencing issues with KDE apps (like Amarok, Okular, Gwenview, KStars, kdenlive, "K3b", "Kolourpaint", etc...)
run the following command from your console terminal prompt: (you can copy & paste it too),
or install from the Synaptic Package Manager (SPM)
sudo apt-get install kdelibs-bin kdelibs5-data kdelibs5-plugins

Depending on your setup, you might also need to install "KDE-runtime" as well.
If you want to use "Kmail", and or "Korganizer", and or Kontacts, and or "Kalarm", then you will probably have to also install "kdepim".
Phd21: Mint 20 and 19.2 Cinnamon & xKDE (Mint Xfce + Kubuntu KDE) & KDE Neon 64-bit (new based on Ubuntu 20.04) Awesome OS's, Dell Inspiron I5 7000 (7573) 2 in 1 touch screen, Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram, Intel 4 Graphics.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by lexon »

I made a recent decision to dual boot my way. One laptop with W10 and another with Cinnamon 18. both have their advantages.
Easiest dual boot I have ever done.

L
Lindows, Linspire, Freespire, Ubuntu, Mint 15 Cinnamon, Mint 16 XFCE, Mint 17 Cinnamon 64 bit. MInt 18 64 bit Cinnamon.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by thom_A »

What I would like to see is Linux devs spending some time in the USB flash drives arena.

With USBs' capacities getting larger and speed getting faster, it makes sense for many people who don't want to give up their current OS to just insert a USB drive and be able to use Linux without harming their system.

There are problems with the persistence mode, which included not being able to install software or update system, it doesn't automatically detect changes in hardware such as graphics cards such as in cases where you want to plug the USB in another computer, etc. It has to be something that emulates exactly the one installed on a hard drive, again, without making changes on a host computer. But I'm not gong to keep my hopes up high on this one. It's certainly another great goal Linux developers should be aiming for, in my opinion.

BTW, anyone tried ExTIX?

http://www.extix.se/?page_id=24
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by Pavlov »

<sigh> I had to step away from this for a few days to clear my head. I started this thread because I was hoping for some positive feedback encouraging me to stick wth Linux. Instead, I get a negative rant from Jim saying how much he hates "Evil Corp." (I presume that's not trademarked by the production company). And then a lecture from phd21 on how things work, but not one encouraging word from either of you, and neither of you actually bothered to answer my question - why should I keep going down this Linux path? (Maybe that's my fault, I didn't actually phrase that as a question in the original post. My bad for assuming people here were smart enough to figure that out).

I stand by what I said, phd21 - my copies of WIN 7 Ultimate and WIN 10 cost me nothing. I could waste my time explaining it, but I think you would still try to find a way to say I paid something. As for Samba breaking my video drivers, not too good at reading comprehension, ehh? It wasn't Samba, it was the rollback process.

And I stand by what I said that things should just work. Try looking at it from the end users perspective - someone who has no software or coding background. They have to install and configure a standalone package to share files over a network? And they have to use a text editor in a terminal to edit a config file to make that happen? And then an update breaks it? Now what do they do? Hmmm? Making things open and configurable does not relieve developers of the responsibility of also making things simple for those who to not want to hassle with configs or modding the software.

I'm done with this thread, it's going nowhere. My thanks to altair4 and thom_A who did post meaningful responses. Whether or not I continue with my Linux experiment is still open, but since I got file sharing working this morning while I was doing the monthly update to Windows I'll just see where it goes. And no, I didn't ask for anyone's help, I just had to clear my head and think about it.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by ichnaton »

I am very happy for you that you can run that Win10 software. Don't let your day get spoiled by Linuxers on this forum. People like me. I tried Windows 10-IoT (the Internet of Things version). Microsoft is offering a free download. Good. I have lots of RaspberryPi's and might as well try out Win10 IoT. Why not.

Turns out downloading from a Linux box is not supported by the MS Download website. I ended up without a copy and, well, that adventure ended right there.

Hence I say, please enjoy your copy. Keep it safe and secure. You just might need it.
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by pdhunter1987 »

Hello Pavlov,

Use whatever you want to use.
Want windows 10? Use it.
Want Linux? Use it.
Want both?
1. Dual boot
2. Use a VM for either one
3. Get a second PC like a laptop or something to run Linux

Also a side note, Jim didn't come across negative or bad in anyway, you took it the wrong way.

Also please post these threads in a part of this forum that is relevant. Open Chat may not be the place.

You have had many responses that I believe have been helpful.
Please don't cause trouble in the community.
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sudo apt install LinuxMint
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Re: Dilemma - Mint/Cinnamon or WIN 10

Post by UltraViolence »

I've developed android FW with linux. You should be able to get MTP working just fine. I had issues with Samsung drivers in windows so it didn't "just work" there either. Mint 13 actually connected to my phone without installing anything. My scanner needed some very specific drivers in windows, in even mint 10, scanning just worked.

As for samba that is another ball game but log files should point you in the right direction. These things seem fixable but yep, you will have to thinker. Its no different in windows with the amount of updates these days that have to be gone over by fine toothed comb. Windows 10 in my opinion is not a usable OS. I think the difference with windows is that the tinkering all happens at the beginning and then the system runs for years. With Linux somebody's gung-ho update can cripple a system that previously worked great.

After 7 is EOL there will really be no place to run to if one doesn't want to be remotely administrated by Microsoft. For these things I think you can stick it out. The end users you talk about need turn key solutions. Linux at least lets you configure with that console and those text files.
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