Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

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Cosmo.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Cosmo. »

I wrote: newly
Jedinovice
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

altair4 wrote:
3)
Neither one of those actions require justification. This is not a democracy.
I said justification not discussion nor a vote. In a previous post I pointed out the fact that Clem can do what he likes!

Justification simply means - has reason and purpose, not arbitrary. That is why I have asked Clem to explain.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by stormryder »

chrisuk wrote:Community:

the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common
Well I certainly don't belong, you people clearly have a different attitude towards business ethics than I do.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by jimallyn »

Is this what all the fuss is over?
in mintupdate, remove dep on synaptic, remove admin rights for checkAPT.py
in mintsources, remove dep on synaptic
remove synaptic from default selection
remove synaptic from mintmenu's favorites
I don't see anything in there that says "remove Synaptic from the repos and make it impossible to install." If it's not installed by default, I'll simply install with apt-get or what's that other one? Software Manager? If it were up to me, I would leave Synaptic in the default installs. But it isn't up to me, so, assuming that it will no longer be installed by default, I'll just add installing Synaptic to my list of things to do when doing a new install of Mint. No biggie.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

I'm with Austin here. A little shell script to run on a fresh install saves a bit of work. BTW Austin, GUFW is now installed by default since 18.0. (A good addition, IMO)

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash

#enable firewall
sudo ufw enable

#stuff i don't use
sudo apt uninstall rhythmbox

#fave apps
sudo apt install asunder puddletag audacious xfburn steam cairo-dock whatsie uget cheese unison thunar pavucontrol radiotray

#Home dirs and shortcuts
rmdir ~/Music
rmdir ~/Movies
mkdir ~/Rips
ln -s /mnt/Data/Music ~/Music
ln -s /mnt/Data/Movies ~/Movies
I know I'll get slated for this, but much of this thread reads to me like 'Waaaaahhhh! Waaaahhhhhhh!'
It seems like an overreaction to the removal of an app from the default install. It's precious little effort to install it, and IMO it does remove a potential source of confusion for the newbie by having only a single GUI app for installing software. I can't see how it's comparable in any way to how Gnome was crippled. No functionality has been lost here folks. If it was removed from the repos I would be crying with you, but it hasn't.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

MintBean wrote:
I know I'll get slated for this, but much of this thread reads to me like 'Waaaaahhhh! Waaaahhhhhhh!'
It seems like an overreaction to the removal of an app from the default install. It's precious little effort to install it, and IMO it does remove a potential source of confusion for the newbie by having only a single GUI app for installing software. I can't see how it's comparable in any way to how Gnome was crippled. No functionality has been lost here folks. If it was removed from the repos I would be crying with you, but it hasn't.
I will grant you that but...

what happens when there is dependency conflict that prevents install via the software manager and the user does not have Synaptic around to fix it?

It's down to the command line which is not a good advert for Mint.

The other problem, as I say, is the thinking behind the removal of Synaptic.

"It's too confusing for the non-techie user, not everyone uses it, best removed..."
Which can apply to just about any app installed by default from Mint.

As I have said repeatedly, it is not about the app itself as the thinking behind the removal...
Would like an explanation myself. What is the thinking behind the removal?
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
Jedinovice
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

Oh wow. I have been asked to remove Windows 8 from a student's laptop and put Mint Linux KDE on there.

Seriously.

Doing it now. Downloading updates and then software.
Which I will be queuing via synaptic.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
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Night Wing
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Night Wing »

Paladin2019 wrote:
Night Wing wrote:
Paladin2019 wrote:
So why not install it in Software manager?

Most Windows users only use internet explorer once, to find and download a superior alternative, ie. Chrome. This is the exact same thing.
I used the Software Manager when I first started with Mint 14....

But you didn't answer the question. Just like using Internet Explorer to download chrome, you'd only have to get your hands dirty once and from then on you can use the alternative forever. Why not just install Synaptic from software manager and then once it's there forget that software manager exists?

I know you don't consider yourself a power user, but you know your way around the OS well enough to actually use synaptic (I've tried it and find it impenetrable), and as such your aversion to the terminal and a continuing avoidance of a core application that bugged out on you once years ago seems a bit odd.
You are getting off topic with the browser question but I will indulge you.

I don't know what your fixation is with Windows Explorer. When I first started with Windows 98 SE, I never used Windows Explorer. I used my friends thumb/flash drive which had the Firefox installer on it and by double left clicking on the Firefox installer on his thumb/flash drive, this is how I installed Firefox "without ever having to use Internet Explorer" in Windows 98 SE. I did the exact same thing for installing Firefox in Windows XP and 7 too. And since I needed a backup windows browser to Firefox in XP and 7, I used Firefox way back then to download and install the windows Pale Moon browser and the windows SeaMonkey browser.

Also, I don't use Google Chrome or Chromium. I don't like the way Chrome or Chromium looks and they aren't customizable "within" the browser for my liking. In other words, I can't move the launcher buttons around in these two browsers to where I want those launcher buttons to be placed in the browser. I also don't use Firefox anymore since Firefox decided to be a Chrome wannabe starting with Firefox 29 which came with Australis. And now the address/navigation bar can't be moved around either in Firefox.

Since Windows 7 is my backup operating system, my two browsers in Windows 7 are Pale Moon (default) and SeaMonkey (backup). In linux Mint, linux Pale Moon is my default browser and linux SeaMonkey is my backup browser. I don' use linux Firefox because of the same reasons I don't use Windows Firefox.

In both cases with PM and SM, I've got just two toolbars at the top of each browser where my bookmarks toolbar is the second toolbar in these browsers and the back/forward, refresh/stop buttons; the Menu bar with "File, Edit, View, History, Bookmarks, Tools, Help"; the Navigation/Address bar; my Home button, my Download arrow button and my Adblock Latitude button (adblocker for linux Pale Moon).....all of these things are on the first toolbar in the Pale Moon browser. And it was done with just using the Customize window which comes with linux Pale Moon and linux SeaMonkey. I did the same thing with these two browsers in Windows 7 too.

Now getting back on topic. I've had to use the terminal "twice" but in each of these instances, I had to fiddle around with the terminal for about an entire day because some commands for using the terminal were not the correct commands given to me by other linux mint users and which produced error codes. In other words, this "soured" me on using the terminal because I got burned using the terminal. Since I'm "not" a glutton for punishment which means I don't like getting burned, I'll only use the terminal when all other options have not worked and the terminal is my only way of resolving a problem and I'll have to come to the Mint forums for help.

It just depends on who's ox is getting gored. Scenario #2. Lets say Synaptic is only available to be installed through the Software Manager. Lets say Synaptic doesn't install cleanly for whatever reason. Then the only way Synaptic can be installed is through using the terminal. In this scenario, would I like to install Synaptic by using the terminal? My answer is not no, but "Hell No".

Let's turn it around with Scenario #3. Obviously you like the terminal. But what if a Mint developer says the terminal will not be installed in Mint, but you can install the terminal by using the Software Manager. That means your ox will be getting gored. And if the terminal doesn't install correctly from using the Software Manager, that will create a problem for you. Whether it be a small or big problem, only you can answer that but I'm sure that would tick you off if the terminal wouldn't install correctly.

Basically, not installing the Synaptic Package Manger in 18.2 as a default in Mint where it shows in the Mint menu and having to install it instead through the Software Manager is a big mistake in my opinion and nothing Clem says will change my mind on this score.
Mint 20.1 (Ulyssa) Xfce 64 Bit
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

This scenario where someone who loves Synaptic for some reason didn't install it straight off the bat, then Software manager breaks down (never happened to me in 2 years, and I'm a little 'naughty' when it comes to PPAs) , with the result that they have to hit the command line for repairs is a real stretch.

I would advise Jedi to raise something in the community ideas section if synaptic is as popular as people believe. I say 'would,' because in my experience that section is a waste of space and it's impossible to get the simplest of responses even to an important question.
But what if a Mint developer says the terminal will not be installed in Mint, but you can install the terminal by using the Software Manager.
I would consider this a very odd decision, but it wouldn't be the end of the world to me. A more equivalent scenario would be if Mint originally had two different terminal programs installed and one was going to be dropped from the standard roll-out.
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Night Wing
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Night Wing »

MintBean wrote:This scenario where someone who loves Synaptic for some reason didn't install it straight off the bat, then Software manager breaks down (never happened to me in 2 years, and I'm a little 'naughty' when it comes to PPAs) , with the result that they have to hit the command line for repairs is a real stretch.
But using the Software Manager did break for me and since it did, I'm wary of using it and this is why I like using Synaptic since Synaptic has NEVER given me "any problems". I'm not in love with Synaptic. On the other hand, the Mint terminal has given me problems and since it has aggravated and frustrated me, this is why I don't use it and try to avoid it at all costs. In fact, since you mentioned the word "love", I'll close by saying, "I have absolutely no love for the terminal". The terminal, for me, is a tool of "last resort" which means I have to keep my fingers crossed and hope whatever commands I put in the terminal are the correct commands to get things to work. The terminal for me, does not inspire confidence if I'm "forced" to use it.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by stormryder »

MintBean wrote:IMO it does remove a potential source of confusion for the newbie by having only a single GUI app for installing software
I was never even once confused by having both apps for installing, people aren't as stupid as you think.
jimallyn wrote:I don't see anything in there that says "remove Synaptic from the repos and make it impossible to install."
They are going to a lot of trouble to remove an application that works well and is important to many users, why would they do that if they weren't planning on breaking comparability soon? Is it really taking up that much space? What bloat are they planning to fill that space with? Why aren't they fixing known bugs instead of wasting time removing this?
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by groze »

I am little confused reading this thread. Is Clem removing synaptic from just the install or is he removing synaptic from the repository? Just for info on a lot of distros the filter has been removed from synaptic. I notice in the 18.2 xfce beta synaptic is still there.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

groze wrote:I am little confused reading this thread. Is Clem removing synaptic from just the install or is he removing synaptic from the repository? Just for info on a lot of distros the filter has been removed from synaptic. I notice in the 18.2 xfce beta synaptic is still there.
We're confused too! This whole thing is confusing.

The impression given is that the plan is to sever the software manager's dependency on synaptic and, with that, removing synaptic from the install but not from the repositories.

Assuming that is the case then all one would have to to do to get Synaptic back would be install it. So the resolution is trivial.
Except... when you want to use it it is a fair bet it will be too late unless you were careful enough to install synaptic from the start!
And, it raises uncomfortable questions about the direction of Mint.

Still awaiting word on the decision from Clem I dare say he will explain in time.

Oh yes, and we're talking 182, not 181 which is in Beta now. Synaptic will still be in 18.1.
Mint Linux 18.0 64 bit KDE edition.
Video editing (AMV's mainly) on a dual core n2840 atom!
Results here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Dw91 ... yVKS7X1Rlg
LOOK HERE FOR MY DEMO OF MINT LINUX KDE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8hDYiGprWs
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by altair4 »

I'm kinda surprised no one noticed this little snippet from the original document:
consider enabling recommends
If implemented installing a given package in Mint will cause all of the same dependencies to be installed that would be installed in Ubuntu instead of a subset.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Pjotr »

altair4 wrote:I'm kinda surprised no one noticed this little snippet from the original document:
consider enabling recommends
If implemented installing a given package in Mint will cause all of the same dependencies to be installed that would be installed in Ubuntu instead of a subset.
That would be a very important improvement.... Enabling recommends is one of the first things I always do in a newly installed Mint (and it's part of my "10 things to do" list as well).

Thanks for drawing attention to this. :)
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

From an old thread:
Launch Synaptic > Settings > General tab > tick Consider recommended packages as dependencies > Apply

The Synaptic setting will prevail over Mint setting, Synaptic acting as a system wide toggle switch.
Will this behaviour also extend to the apt and apt-get commands when set in Synaptic?
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Cosmo. »

MintBean wrote:Will this behaviour also extend to the apt and apt-get commands when set in Synaptic?
Theoretically yes. But only, if this bug gets fixed. (I did not check this again in the last half year.)
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

Cosmo. wrote:Theoretically yes. But only, if this bug gets fixed. (I did not check this again in the last half year.)
Thanks Cosmo.

It appears this is all working here in Mint 18.1.

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get -s install gnome-shell
18 new packages with install-recommends option disabled in synaptic.
42 new packages with install-recommends option enabled in synaptic.

The command line switch '--install-recommends' or '--no-install-recommends' can be used to override the synaptic (system-wide) setting.

The only downside is that in light of this functionality, I can't cope without Synaptic in the default install. :wink:
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Cosmo. »

Interesting, as there was no change in Synaptic in the last months. Seems, that the origin of this bug was on another place (apt?).
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

Cosmo. wrote:Interesting, as there was no change in Synaptic in the last months. Seems, that the origin of this bug was on another place (apt?).
Possibly, or was it a mistake in testing? I saw mention of xsane as the target package for a test, but it only shows suggested, not recommended packages here. Either way, it's working!
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