Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

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xenopeek
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by xenopeek »

Two, or if you haven't used Synaptic prior to running this command one, files need to be deleted to default to installing recommended packages:
sudo rm -v /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00recommends /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99synaptic

This affects apt, apt-get, aptitude, synaptic and any other program built on top of them like Software Manager.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Moem »

Jedinovice wrote:Assuming that is the case then all one would have to to do to get Synaptic back would be install it. So the resolution is trivial.
Except... when you want to use it it is a fair bet it will be too late unless you were careful enough to install synaptic from the start!
Too late in what way?
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by killer de bug »

Jedinovice wrote:OK, I store my .deb files for offline install but guess how I re-install them..? In synaptic!
Wrong tool.
dpkg is what you need.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Pjotr »

killer de bug wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:OK, I store my .deb files for offline install but guess how I re-install them..? In synaptic!
Wrong tool.
dpkg is what you need.
I prefer GDebi. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

killer de bug wrote:
Jedinovice wrote:OK, I store my .deb files for offline install but guess how I re-install them..? In synaptic!
Wrong tool.
dpkg is what you need.
Nope. Synpatic. If a conflict is detected or another dependency, synaptic goes sorts it; dpkg does not.

And I thought we were avoiding the whole command line thing.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by killer de bug »

Jedinovice wrote:Nope. Synpatic. If a conflict is detected or another dependency, synaptic goes sorts it; dpkg does not.
If you store your own .deb files, you should have all you need without conflict. Or you are not doing the storage stuff correctly.
Jedinovice wrote:And I thought we were avoiding the whole command line thing.
Who said this? :shock:
A new rule for 2017 that I missed?
The "command line thing" is the way to go when you want to reproduce the same thing several times. Synaptic is just an additional layer toward dpkg.
What I mean is that if you don't have synaptic, you can still install all your deb easily because you have dpkg and because you have carefully stored all your deb. You want to reproduce several time the same procedure, that qualify for a one line dpkg command. Compare this to selecting by hand all the packages you want to install. One is fast and reliable. The other one is painful and error prone.

Otherwise as said by Pjotr, you can use gdebi. It will do the same as synaptic with a GUI. But YMMV. I haven't used it since several years. It was crashing randomly a few years ago, I moved away from it since then. Also I'm not sure it is well adapted for installing a tons of packages at the same time.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by killer de bug »

Cosmo. wrote:the idea to drop Synaptic means to remove the far better package management GUI.
[...]
Dropping the better software is a regression. Content beats numbers.
1) your post is highly subjective and your opinion only entitles yourself. Other persons may think that synaptic isn't that useful and may be dangerous. I haven't used it since years for that reason. I respect that you call it 'far better'. But in my opinion this is wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion I guess.

2) Removing synaptic is only cleaning the installed system. It removes one of these softwares that not everybody needs but which was obliged to have since it was used somewhere else. Removing it was impossible. It is interesting to see that it's going in the direction that a lot of users have requested since years: a lighter system, with more customizations and less imposed choices. (Always the same story, change something people complain. Revert it, others will complain.)

3) Nothing was taken away, as the installation of this package is easy and only one click away. So why so much drama? :shock:
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by stormryder »

killer de bug wrote:So why so much drama?
killer de bug wrote:If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

Cosmo. wrote:the idea to drop Synaptic means to remove the far better package management GUI.
killer de bug wrote: 3) Nothing was taken away, as the installation of this package is easy and only one click away. So why so much drama? :shock:
For some reason people are ignoring the points I have raised.

WE KNOW WE CAN RE-INSTALL!

This is not the point! the resolution by re-install is trivial, we have said that repeaidly.

For the fourth time here are the concerns...

1) Synaptic is very useful tool that aids diagnosis and repair of problems. Removing it form the install removes a valuable. even critical tool which you suddenly find you want when your install is already screwed up. And yes, that does happen!
2) As I say... a while back I asked for Synaptic like functionality in the software manager and was told that this would not happen because synaptic was there - the implication it always would be. Now synaptic is being junked with no replacement offered in the install. So this *is* removal of functionality.
3) Developers and their ilk tend to like the CLI. They have to work in it all the time. (I also tend to find they are the ones that prefer the more lightweight, speed oriented GUI's and do not like the likes of KDE...) Fair enough. But Linux suffers from this perception that all meaningful configuration has to be done via the command line which scares the hell out of Joe public!! Having a GUI interface to apt is a good thing and we do not want to be dropping to the likes of dpkg is we can avoid it... Mint is NOT supposed to be a lightweight distro focusing on developers and the like. It is supposed to be a fully functional OS that can be picked up and used without dropping to the CI to do anything.
Frankly, Ubuntu and Unity take the minimal approach with all config having ot be done via the CLI. If mint takes the "if in doubt, cut it out" approach then we might as well all go Ubuntu.
4) Sure, installing of synaptic is easy and trivial but removing it on the basis "It's too techie" (which is madness when we get to "you should use the command prompt anyway argument now being presented) follows the same line of reasoning that gave us Unity, Gnome 3, Windows 8, MacOS, et al. Furthermore, it can be applied to any app or utility outside the base OS - which is not supposed to be the Mint way!!!

For the fourth time - this is more about precedent and direction than about Synaptic itself!

5) Sure, installing is trivial. But so is keeping synaptic. In the absence of any clear justification for removing synaptic, why not keep the utility and just buryit in a sub menu away from the software manager - depreciating it rather than removing it?

And again, I would not be so bothered except that I was told very firmly that synaptic was the tool to use for queuing on advanced installation when I suggested features for the software manager. In other words,I was told in days gone b that Synaptic was provided for users like me!

So dropping Synaptic with no advanced mode for the software manager is dropping functionality. The tool I was told to use is being removed when it was implied it was included FOR THE SAKE OF FUNCTIONALITY!
[Though I am drawing the conclusion that the 'new features' forum section is just for ideas to be dropped in and ignored. The dev team have their own ideas.]

For me, personally, it's no biggee. I know enough to install or Muon after initial install. I am also likely to standardise on Mint 18.0 or 18.1 Change is not smart when you are running your own business and have to provide your own IT support for you and staff! I stuck with 17.0 for myself and 17.2 for my wife until 18 came out.

But... I can see it being a right pain The number of threads I have seen where the user could be pointed to "start synaptic and..."
Without the tool being place I can see software maintenance getting much more fiddly for users in the future.

And... this is not the Mint way.

If synaptic is being dropped - when it could just be included with no harm being done - I would like to know WHY?
What is the case for dropping a very useful tool that a lot of people use in preference to the software manager?

We're not all programmers you know.

Anyway, those are the concerns. If people are to disagree, I can handle that, but let's address the actual concerns and not stick with "but you can re-install it."

We know!!

But what happens when GIMP is decided to be be too techie for it to be included in Mint? Or K3B? Or X-Sane? Or the whole of KDE? ("Too many config options. Users will get confused...)
The precedent being set is worrying and leads, in reducto to Ubuntu: The OS, Libreoffice, the software manager, file manager and then everything else must be installed by the user and any and all config done by the CLI.

Ubuntu consciously made that decision which is fine. We know where Ubuntu is coming from. But Mint is supposed to be different. So why is Synaptic being dropped? What is the argument? We have not heard it.
Breaking the dependency on synaptic I can understand but removing it does not make sense to me when it can just stay there.
Last edited by Jedinovice on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Cosmo. »

killer de bug wrote:your post is highly subjective and your opinion only entitles yourself. Other persons may think that synaptic isn't that useful and may be dangerous. I haven't used it since years for that reason. I respect that you call it 'far better'. But in my opinion this is wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion I guess.
Tell me, what is not subjective. Also the points given in the software manager are subjective. The possibility to give points is not my invention, but an invention of those, who designed the software manager. I respect your opinion, but you have to do the same. (I already wrote that I use Synaptic since many years without any problem. So experiences do differ - quite usual. There is hardly any software in Mint installed by default, where you cannot find the one or other user who complained about problems. With your logic all has to get removed.) There are also people, who think that having no AV is dangerous. Does this mean, that an AV has to be added? I cannot remember reading something like that by you.
So I only agree, that I wrote my opinion and I would be more than astonished if you would have expected something different; if so it wouldn't be my fault.
BTW: The disks utility is a fine example, where users have fallen into problems by using it to create "automatically" mount points. Where is the suggestion to remove this piece of software?
Another example: You may correct me in case, but to my observation there is no piece of preinstaled software, which has got in the forum so often been told as being buggy as Brasero and advices are given in countless posts, to replace it with one of the other well-known software alternatives. If there is a doubtful software preinstalled, Brasero has the best chance to get placed at the top of the list. I don't see Brasero named anywhere in the same file in the roadmap as being suggested or evaluated for getting removed. The underlying engine cdrkit is not any more maintained since many years and consequently gives trouble with many newer hardware and burning media. Might be, that anybody understands this kind of evaluation, I do not bother to admit, that I am unable to understand this. So in this context: The idea to remove Synaptic is IMHO something absolutely subjective (with this coming back to your first sentence).
The list of doubtful packages can easily get enhanced, e.g. the silly virtualbox-guest-packages, which cry for and give trouble again and again.
killer de bug wrote:Removing synaptic is only cleaning the installed system. It removes one of these softwares that not everybody needs but which was obliged to have since it was used somewhere else. ... It is interesting to see that it's going in the direction that a lot of users have requested since years: a lighter system, with more customizations and less imposed choices.
I listed a number of examples, which surely "not everybody needs" and uses. So why just remove one of the (in software manager) best judged software pieces? Until now I dd not read any valid argumentation for that. The idea to remove Synaptic is a very subjective one (without valid arguments) and has nothing to do with "cleaning".
I also wrote about the argumentation about majority / minority of users, who use Synaptic and pointed out, what I see as wrong with such argumentation. You now introduced the wording "not everybody" instead. Ahem: Do you know any graphical software in the default installation, which gets used by "everybody" (besides the DE itself and the affiliated file manager)? Perhaps(!) xed (or its predecessors), but that's it. So the consequential step shall be Mint with only the text editor as default application? You cannot mean this seriously.
I further wrote (in admittedly some sarcastic overpiping) how a very light and individually system could be made. As said, this was not an actual suggestion. The question is - and I wrote also that - where is the point to make a decision for adding / removing a software? What are the criteria? I have not seen any and I have not seen, that anywhere such criteria have been linked or otherwise been given.
Did I say already, that all posts are subjective?
killer de bug wrote:Nothing was taken away, as the installation of this package is easy and only one click away. So why so much drama? :shock:
Where would be the drama to install those programs, which I listed already as relatively obviously not being used by everybody? Without answering this, your rhetorical question cannot be answered.
Regarding Synaptic: I don't know, if you know, if in case, that Synaptic should be dropped as default installed program the accommodation by Clem to remove the update possibility will any longer be maintained. I don't know, if this will happen, but I see the likelihood, that this might happen. In case this should happen I am sure, that we will "see" us again in threads, where users did update by Synaptic and by doing so circumvented the level system of the update manager.
Besides that: your "one click away" is not really correct. See the discussion regarding apt-xapian-index.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by stormryder »

killer de bug wrote: Removing synaptic is only cleaning the installed system. It removes one of these softwares that not everybody needs but which was obliged to have since it was used somewhere else.
There is plenty of junk that could be removed but isn't, I certainly have no need for a talking cow, don't need it don't want it but its there, I could list a lot of other stuff that is just as useless to me but there are no plans to remove that junk either.
In fact the software manager allows you to install everything else so why not remove everything but the software manager and let people install only the software they choose?
If you are going to remove my preferred application to install software from the repository why bother with the repository at all? I get software elsewhere that works just as well. Should I take the removal of synaptic as a message that the repository isn't the best source of software?
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

stormryder wrote:If you are going to remove my preferred application to install software from the repository why bother with the repository at all? I get software elsewhere that works just as well. Should I take the removal of synaptic as a message that the repository isn't the best source of software?
Yes.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by killer de bug »

Jedinovice wrote:But what happens when GIMP is decided to be be too techie for it to be included in Mint? Or K3B? Or X-Sane? Or the whole of KDE? ("Too many config options. Users will get confused...)
They have removed Banshee and put Rhythmbox... Did you see me crying? :lol:

Choices have to be made on a regular basis on what will be installed by default and what is not. Last time it was the codec, now this is synaptic. Your example with KDE is not applicable at all. We speak about losing an entire edition (which occurred already) compared to removing a package from the default installation (which can be put back easily, without pain, and in 10 seconds).

At the end of the day, you have to understand that choices have to be made and they can't satisfy 100% of the users. If everyone start reacting like you do, we will complain on every commit from this project. If it was to justify the loss of a desktop environment, I would understand your frustration.
But in this situation, sorry, I can't.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by killer de bug »

stormryder wrote:[ Should I take the removal of synaptic as a message that the repository isn't the best source of software?
Just a message that synaptic is not the best GUI for dpkg in the Mint project. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by xenopeek »

I think opinions are running a bit hot. Can we calm down and back off a bit? This is discussion about Linux Mint, with other users. Let's keep it friendly. I think everybody's point of view is well understood; no need to keep reiterating those.

It's clearly a divisive topic with some seeing Synaptic as a key component of the default installation while others don't see the urgency for that and would be fine with it being available for installation if and when needed. I don't think anybody is going to be persuaded to change their point of view. Talking FUD and speculating on motive from a single line in the developers' roadmap seems unproductive at the least. Let's stop speculating on motive.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by chrisuk »

I think some here are getting a bit paranoid because Clem hasn't posted... I think he might have more important things to do ATM ;)
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Jedinovice »

xenopeek wrote:I think opinions are running a bit hot. Can we calm down and back off a bit? This is discussion about Linux Mint, with other users. Let's keep it friendly. I think everybody's point of view is well understood; no need to keep reiterating those.

It's clearly a divisive topic with some seeing Synaptic as a key component of the default installation while others don't see the urgency for that and would be fine with it being available for installation if and when needed. I don't think anybody is going to be persuaded to change their point of view. Talking FUD and speculating on motive from a single line in the developers' roadmap seems unproductive at the least. Let's stop speculating on motive.
I'll take this as the cue to back out. Dropping discussion now.

If the decision goes ahead I can handle it but I think it will cause grief for users down the line.

Xenopeek, if you see fit to close th thread you may do so. I agree that points of view are not going to be changed and so it now runs to the choice of Clem. I just hope he takes a look here and understands the concerns.

Signing off.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by groze »

killer de bug wrote: They have removed Banshee and put Rhythmbox..
Off topic question.

Does that depend on the desktop that you are using? I notice Banshee is there in 18.0 Linux Mint Xfce & Rhythmbox was not. Just a note Rhythmbox could be installed if you want it. I could of installed another software that requires banshee but I am not aware of any that does.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by MintBean »

groze wrote:
killer de bug wrote: They have removed Banshee and put Rhythmbox..
Off topic question.

Does that depend on the desktop that you are using? I notice Banshee is there in 18.0 Linux Mint Xfce & Rhythmbox was not. Just a note Rhythmbox could be installed if you want it. I could of installed another software that requires banshee but I am not aware of any that does.
If you do command-line upgrade from 17.3 to 18 rather than a reinstall you are left with Banshee. Fresh installs default to Rhythmbox.
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Re: Mint 18.2: Removing Synaptic???!

Post by Night Wing »

MintBean wrote:If you do command-line upgrade from 17.3 to 18 rather than a reinstall you are left with Banshee. Fresh installs default to Rhythmbox.
That's not correct with Xfce. Two weeks ago at a garage sale, I picked up an HP Envy desktop computer. I placed a live DVD of Mint 18 with Xfce in the DVD drive, got to the desktop and then clicked on "Install Mint" for a fresh install. The hard drive was formatted and linux Mint 18 with Xfce was installed. Under Multimedia in the Mint menu, Banshee is listed so it is installed, but Rhythmbox is not listed.

I checked the Synaptic Package Manager and in the Search box, I typed in rhythmbox and there are quite a few listings for Rhythmbox such as dbg, data, doc, (and others) but they are not installed. Just an empty white box to the left of all the rhythmbox listings so Rhythmbox is not installed by default.

That might be correct for 18.1, but it isn't true for 18. Since Mint 18.1 with Xfce hasn't officially been released, I can't say if 18.1 with Xfce has Rhythbox replacing Banshee.
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