New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

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JerryF
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by JerryF » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:09 pm

Citizen229 wrote:Ok lets use the car analogy. You can buy a brand new car X, but for some people the transmission doesnt work( wifi) without you fixing it. Or you can get last years model, that has the most recalls fixed already.

Or go buy a driverless car. Its the latest and greatest. I mean they only crash frequently. You need to learn to repair a car anyways.
Good point about previous model's recalls being fixed.

But still my point is that most people take their car to a mechanic to be repaired. They don't fix it themselves.

P.S. With newer hardware, older versions of Mint eventually won't support that hardware.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Pjotr » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:23 pm

Citizen229 wrote:And there in lies the problem--- THEY DO NOT KNOW THEY HAVE OPTIONS. To compound the issue, as another user said 17.3 is hidden and 18.1 splashed in the face. To further compound as seen with most of the replies here, they will most likely never even know about it. So in effect most of you ARE FORCING.
Nobody is forcing anyone. It's counterproductive to confuse people with other download options besides the "latest and greatest". As 18.1 is perfectly fine for the vast majority of hardware combinations, there's absolutely no need to create such confusion.

We can whine about that, but that's the way it is. And I fully support that way.

For the record: I deplore the title of this thread of yours. Bashing 18.1 is unjust, and also disrespectful towards the Mint developers, who did a great job.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Citizen229 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:43 pm

Pjotr wrote:
For the record: I deplore the title of this thread of yours. Bashing 18.1 is unjust, and also disrespectful towards the Mint developers, who did a great job.
For the record, I have not once bashed 18.X. Only glorified 17.3. If speaking the truth in presenting arguments for a discussion is deplorable in some way, then so be it. I have been basketed as a deplorable before for speaking the truth. You are correct they are doing a great job on 18.X, but it is not yet complete(ironed out) like 17.3 is.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by chrisonmint » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:01 pm

My 2 cents. Video playback has always been an issue for me on linux, either tearing or stuttering. I have really struggled to get a distro / kernel / desktop / driver / app combo which runs smoothly on all my video files.

I have got 17.3 to as good as i can and am sticking with it. I have a spare hard disk which i popped in to try LM 18.0 and suffered from the dissappearing mouse pointer bug (since fixed i think) and then saw another bug which I only get with 17.3 and kernel 4.4+ or 18.0 with whatever kernel it comes with. To completely avoid the bug, i am on the 3.13 kernel series and 17.3.
https://github.com/linuxmint/Cinnamon/issues/3442

Its a frustrating experience, as I am stuck on the old (but more stable) software base of Ubuntu 14.04 and would really like to get on the newer base. I have a printer which I cant connect to without upgrading and there are newer apps of all kinds in the 16.04 base. I have toyed with the idea of switching to Korora 25 with Cinnamon, but that only has support for 12 months and I am nervous about having to make a big switch again so soon. It took ages to iron out all the bugs with Mint 17.x and I am loathed to have to do it all over again! (I am talking about getting the user accounts set properly, fixing issues with the power settings, finding workarounds for the dock disappearing and setting up all the apps I use)

I dont feel like I am a power user with unusual requirements. Good video and non-tearing windows should be a given with any OS, IMHO.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Pjotr » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:13 pm

Citizen229 wrote:I have been basketed as a deplorable before for speaking the truth.
That was wrong then: there are no deplorable voters, only deplorable elites who resent their (imminent) loss of power. The times they are a'-changing, and not a bloody moment too soon either, if you ask me. :)

Although the title of your thread is incorrect, I've been a bit too harsh on you, I'm afraid. My apologies.
Last edited by Pjotr on Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by racer-x » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:15 pm

This thread reminds me of the age old arguments about Windows OS's. When XP came out, people were afraid and claimed Win98 was better. Then Win7 came out and everyone wanted to stay with XP. Same goes for Win10.

If your old hardware can't handle the newer distros, then that is a valid argument. But a blanket statement that "new people should use 17x vs 18x" seems so ridiculous to me. I for one upgrade as soon as a new version comes out. I really appreciate all the hard work the developers put into a new version and am always eager to try it out.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by chrisonmint » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:59 am

racer-x wrote:This thread reminds me of the age old arguments about Windows OS's. When XP came out, people were afraid and claimed Win98 was better. Then Win7 came out and everyone wanted to stay with XP. Same goes for Win10.

If your old hardware can't handle the newer distros, then that is a valid argument. But a blanket statement that "new people should use 17x vs 18x" seems so ridiculous to me. I for one upgrade as soon as a new version comes out. I really appreciate all the hard work the developers put into a new version and am always eager to try it out.
I dont think its really being scared of the new, or resistant to change. We hope that change will be better, the new distro will be faster, smoother, more capable. The original poster is venting their frustration that the new seems to be causing more issues than it resolves. Users see bugs in software all the time and you can understand them being disappointed when "their" bug isnt squashed in the new release.

At least we have an active forum here to discuss this and hopefully help newbies and frustrated power-users alike.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Citizen229 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:11 pm

@chrisonmint-"People come here for ease. They DL the latest version and they have zero tolerance the bugs. Then they move to other more unstable distros. Then they go back to windows. This fully sets in the windows trap that no one can make an OS like them."

That is a quote from my opening statement in this thread.

The entire purpose of this thread was to convey that it might be easier for new folks(to linux) if they use a more stable version versus the latest and greatest version. You know, let them get their footing and get their feet wet.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by chrisonmint » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:41 am

Citizen229 wrote:@chrisonmint-"People come here for ease. They DL the latest version and they have zero tolerance the bugs.
100% agree. Thats the world I want to live in too, although I dont mind doing a bit of work. Bugs are ok if I can work around them or splat them!

Windows isnt perfect either (sorry if this is off topic). My work laptop runs windows 10. The first time the power supply is plugged in, the screen freezes. You have to unplug-and-replug to get the screen working again. Some bug in the video or power system.

I'm a very happy LM17.3 user, but part of me is itching for something newer... just because... :D

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by ColdBoot » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:38 pm

Old thread but I would like to add a remark (or two)...

People with "zero tolerance" are not fit to use anything, let alone Linux. The sooner they learn that world or anything in it, is not perfect or revolving around them, the better for them and everybody else.

As for the race problem in 18.1 Cinnamon, it rarely happens that my machine boots to a black screen but it is quite easy to restart MDM and reboot to get environment working properly again. Other than that, it is a very nice and usable distro and I'm particularly impressed by the fact that Cinnamon has evolved so much in a relatively short time since its inception.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by chrisonmint » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:11 am

ColdBoot wrote:Old thread but I would like to add a remark (or two)...

People with "zero tolerance" are not fit to use anything, let alone Linux. The sooner they learn that world or anything in it, is not perfect or revolving around them, the better for them and everybody else.

As for the race problem in 18.1 Cinnamon, it rarely happens that my machine boots to a black screen but it is quite easy to restart MDM and reboot to get environment working properly again. Other than that, it is a very nice and usable distro and I'm particularly impressed by the fact that Cinnamon has evolved so much in a relatively short time since its inception.
Well, I am still running 17.3 on my linux machine. I keep thinking of all the software I would have to install and confirm works on 18.x that I am still hanging back. Oh, and there is also a strange graphical bug that is only fixed in the 4.8 kernel (i think) which I assume will officially come out with 18.2 (or at least when LM is at the equivalent to 16.04.2). Still rocking the 3.13.106 kernel (LTS!)

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by English Invader » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:10 am

I'm still on 17.2 and the LTS model guarantees five years support which is why I've spent a lot of time configuring old PC games to work through Wine. If and when I upgrade to a later version of Mint, that process begins all over again so, for me, it's very much a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

LTS is there to ensure that people can set up home with all their files and configurations and not be tied to a fast development cycle. For that reason, new users should use the latest available LTS release, configure their system to that standard and then upgrade five years down the line.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by racer-x » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:32 pm

English Invader wrote:I'm still on 17.2 and the LTS model guarantees five years support which is why I've spent a lot of time configuring old PC games to work through Wine. If and when I upgrade to a later version of Mint, that process begins all over again so, for me, it's very much a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

LTS is there to ensure that people can set up home with all their files and configurations and not be tied to a fast development cycle. For that reason, new users should use the latest available LTS release, configure their system to that standard and then upgrade five years down the line.
Now that's the smartest post in this thread yet...........

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Portreve » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:24 am

With all due respect, is there an actual point to this thread?
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Citizen229 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:48 am

More than likely, not anymore. this post was created when 18.0 was transitioning to 18.1. 18 has been fleshed out fantastically. Im sure it can be resurrected when 19.0 comes out. The point of the post was to question why we as a community tend to get completely new people on the latest version versus the previous more stable release. some took my post as 18.X bashing which it wasnt, it was questioning the behavior of the community. Im sure the wireless issue of 18 still scares people away who are testing the water. Nothing makes the Win7 disk go in the drive quicker than no internet on first boot. Sure windows doesnt either, but they have a disc in their hand to remedy that. Versus digging through the hundreds of wireless posts, or register->wait->post->wait->try reply->loop until fixed. Some understood my initial post, some did not, and some understood and just did not care. Which is fine, to each their own.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by majpooper » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:50 pm

229 - I understood your original post and agree 100%
I tried to make the point that the Mint web site leads noobs to the latest release rather than the most stable release. That nugget of wisdom did not go over well.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by KBD47 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:23 pm

Since Mint 17/Ubuntu 14.04 LTS still has a few years of support it may be worthwhile to mention to newbies who are having trouble with Mint 18/Ubuntu 16.04 LTS. I was surprised that 2 of my computers would not run on the newer LTS but worked on the Mint 17/Ubuntu 14.04 older LTS version.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by BG405 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:55 am

Whilst I suspect that most LM18.x installations go without a hitch (for want of a way to qualify this), I do think that links to the 17.3 editions should be a bit more obvious, maybe with the comment that it may be better for older hardware, may be more stable (something along those lines) BUT has less time before end of support and won't have the latest versions of some software.

Thing is, we don't want to confuse newbies with a long list of distros - there are plenty of posts already where people are not sure which DE to install! :?

Just my 2p worth :)
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by arsuk » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:37 am

I think that the original point of warning newbies off using 18.1 is a valid point. The main Mint download pages could make a recommendation for the different type of users. I will add that there is an alternative that worked for me.

I am a long term Ubuntu user. Some of my hardware us too long in the tooth for Unity or Gnome 3 and the I found 16 LTS to be slow on start up so I decided to try out the Mint distribution. My daughter has been running Mint 16 on her Asus Netbook for more than a year and loves it. I installed Mint 18.1 on my Netbook. Cinnamon crashes randomly after long startup times and nemo segfaults. Furthermore, using a second screen causes Cinnamon not to respond. On my desktop PC (i7 based self built for development work) the only problem is that Cinnemon very occasionally 'loses' the mouse pointer or changes a windows transparency and I have to redisplay. On my 32 bit intel based test laptop Cinnamon crashes in dual screen mode.

I was thinking about taking the advice of this chat and downgrading to an earlier version but before doing this I tried using Mate instead of Cinnamon. None of the problems I mentioned above have appeared since my switch. Mate works for me with my 3 hardware environments reliably. Also, it feels quicker and more snappy when using it. Cinnamon has no extra value for me as a user - I use my PC for software development and the office tools. So while Mate is being maintained I would say that using Mint 18.1 is a great experience but stay away from Cinnamon if you are more interested in getting your work done than debugging issues.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by KBD47 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:44 pm

Cinnamon is great on the right hardware but low spec hardware should use Xfce or MATE. The big problem some are having going from 17 to version 18 release is the kernel. Sometimes a newer kernel causes more problems for older hardware. I can't run Mint 18 on a desktop that is 5 years old with a dual-core CPU and 4 gigs of ram even though Cinnamon is awesome on it via Mint 17. Something in the kernel or drivers in the newer version of Mint gives me issues with that machine. Had the same trouble with a netbook on Mint 18. When support ends for Mint 17 in two years I may try the future Mint 19 release at that time or just use Debian Stable, perhaps LMDE 3.

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