New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

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CoffeeFiend
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by CoffeeFiend »

Well for me, I'm not new to Linux, just to Mint in particular. I like what I've read about it and I have every intention of setting up LM 18.1 to run in live mode with persistence on my HP Laptop. If I run into any issues, I know where to go to find help. (Hint, that would be here 8) )
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by JosephM »

sphyrth wrote:Well that, and I think much of the whining has to do with the X-apps, and Mint-Y.
That would be a silly thing to whine about. Mint-Y is just an extra, not even the default. If you don't like the XApps you can simply install the equivalent gnome or mate versions without any issues.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Cosmo. »

JosephM wrote:That would be a silly thing to whine about. Mint-Y is just an extra, not even the default. If you don't like the XApps you can simply install the equivalent gnome or mate versions without any issues.
Whereas I agree with you regarding Mint-Y, I contradict in case of X-apps. To my (might be wrong) understanding they were not made, because their original programs in the Ubuntu 14.04 are bad, but because the development steps for those programs in the Ubuntu 16.04 base contradict the design idea of the Mint team. So your idea would not really be a solution. I admit, that I know about the reasons to launch the X-apps do come only from what I could read in the past and how I did understand it. You might have more insight.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by CaptainKirksChair »

I was fixing a friends 5 year old HP laptop that had a bad hard drive. Sectors were going bad and the built-in HD tests would always fail around 5% complete. I tried reinstalling Windows 8 from the OEM DVDs but that failed too. So I wiped the HD and installed Mint 18.1 Cinnamon. (Mint used up so little of the HD it never got to the first bad sector.) The installation and boot-up afterward were fine. The only real problem was an annoying video issue: the mouse pointer would ghost when it was moved next to a command button. Just in a 1-2 mm area around the button. It would disappear in a second or so. But is was annoying. So I wiped the drive again and went back to Mint 17.3 Cinnamon. No mouse pointer ghosting problems. And this laptop was something I would think is fairly standard hardware for many users "out there."

I think most of this is that Microsoft has the resources to test a LOT of hardware. They also have the corporate influence to get hardware manufacturers to test their own hardware to Microsoft specifications. Mint doesn't really have that. We rely on the community to ascertain whether specific hardware works well or not. In the above scenario, I failed to upload that specific HP laptop configuration so others would know that 18.1 had that bug out of the box but 17.3 didn't. This is where diligence as Mint users will pay big dividends. Point new possible users to a configuration page and see what version of Mint would work best with their hardware. I think it would save a lot of forum posting.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by JosephM »

Cosmo. wrote:
JosephM wrote:That would be a silly thing to whine about. Mint-Y is just an extra, not even the default. If you don't like the XApps you can simply install the equivalent gnome or mate versions without any issues.
Whereas I agree with you regarding Mint-Y, I contradict in case of X-apps. To my (might be wrong) understanding they were not made, because their original programs in the Ubuntu 14.04 are bad, but because the development steps for those programs in the Ubuntu 16.04 base contradict the design idea of the Mint team. So your idea would not really be a solution. I admit, that I know about the reasons to launch the X-apps do come only from what I could read in the past and how I did understand it. You might have more insight.
This is partially true. There were various reasons. Take gedit for example. Until Mint18 we always shipped a pinned version of gedit2. Gedit3 hadn't met the expectations for awhile and became even worse when it was fully gnomified. By the time Ubuntu 16.04 rolled around nearly all of the core gnome apps had been switched to the newer gnome design. These aren't what Mint users expected to see. We have always really stuck to the classic desktop style and paradigms. To compound the problem Ubuntu then patched the UI of those apps to work with the Unity global menus and locally integrated menus so in DE's like Cinnamon you got a bit of a mess.

There were other options, like use the apps from Mate. This didn't really work either. At the time all of them were still gtk2 and we needed gtk3 to support HiDPI. We couldn't really advertise HiDPI support in Cinnamon and ship all of our core apps with no support :) There was also the fact that they were tied to the Mate desktop in small ways. Creating our own also gave us the ability to be able to do what we wanted with them.

All of that doesn't really change my comment about whining about them though. People can easily install the Mate or Gnome versions if they have features or something that are missing in the XApps. Or install something completely different.

I would also encourage people who find them missing certain things to make feature requests on the github pages. It doesn't mean it will automatically happen but it lets us know what people are looking for. If a dev comes looking for something to work on it also can give them an idea of what they might do.

On a side note, if you like the new style gnome apps, Ubuntu dropping Unity will actually be a good thing. That means starting in Mint19 if you want to use those apps you will be able to use them as gnome intended without all the weird patches for Unity.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by MrSnoid »

I am a "new people" and I have had to learn quite a bit and even reinstall once and then 18.2 came out and I grabbed it right away! I might have problems in the future but I will keep learning and growing. I have a triple boot OS and will add one more if I can! I still have Windows 7 but I kept it because I was scared of change! I haven't went back and never will! I am 56 years old and dont like change but without change you become stagnent! I always said "computers are just a fad" I was wrong and Linux is the future! Thank you everyone for your encouragement!
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by exploder »

You know things are getting interesting when people post their opinions and experiences with different supported releases of the same distro! :) There are a couple regressions with the Ubuntu 16.04 base used in MInt 18 but unfortunately that happens. I just installed Mint 18.2 Cinnamon on my new desktop and had to fix a couple problems. In the end, it was really worth it for all the refinements that came with the new release.

I have no idea why some complain about the Mint Y theme and x-apps... Mint Y is a choice, I happen to love it! X-apps is a means to have consistency across releases and the improvements to these apps really impressed me. Generally the release notes will clue users into where problems might come into play. No software is perfect.

In my opinion, Linux MInt 18.2 Cinnamon is to the point where it is highly competitive with Microsoft's and Apple's offerings. :D
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by MintBean »

exploder wrote:In my opinion, Linux MInt 18.2 Cinnamon is to the point where it is highly competitive with Microsoft's and Apple's offerings. :D
+1 to this.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by BG405 »

Having recently installed Linux Mint 18.2 KDE 64-Bit on a test machine (an Acer aspire E11 ES1-111M-C3CP with a 32GB eMMC) I must say I'm very impressed with it. Some of the missing bits in 18.1 such as desired time format are present in this version and it is fast! There's also a choice of booting with Systemd or Upstart for those who it may concern.

The Mint-Y dark theme is one of the big attractions for me. I have been trying to get away from bright themes for years.

I'll definitely be recommending LM18.2 to new users. It looks great so far.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Cosmo. »

exploder wrote:There are a couple regressions with the Ubuntu 16.04 base
... but also in Mint itself, which are (supposed to be) under the control of the Mint team. For example the wrong ownership of files, created by the update manager. Or the silently removed delay, when you move with mouse diagonally in the Cinnamon menu (for me a deal breaker). Or xed not autoclosing after saving file changes. Or Nemo showing the wrong file types. - I mentioned here only issues, which have been introduced with LM 18 or above.
exploder wrote:In my opinion, Linux MInt 18.2 Cinnamon is to the point where it is highly competitive with Microsoft's and Apple's offerings. :D
I would like to see LM 18.2 being competitive with LM 17.3.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by sphyrth »

I'm having small irks with Sonya because of some removed functionalities (No more buttons for hot corners, no option to auto-log in, no more snapping to the sides). But these are mere issues of "getting used to".

In terms of stability, usability, and all other features that make Mint better, I have no complaints.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by MintBean »

sphyrth wrote:I'm having small irks with Sonya because of some removed functionalities (No more buttons for hot corners, no option to auto-log in, no more snapping to the sides). But these are mere issues of "getting used to".

In terms of stability, usability, and all other features that make Mint better, I have no complaints.
Snapping windows to the sides of the desktop is still working here in 18.2 Cinnamon. Auto login has been incorporated in the LightDM greeter on Github so I guess we'll see it in 18.3.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by cdog »

As a new Linux user (I have tried it several times in the past but have recently taken the complete plunge) I can tell you that running 17.3 would not help me a bit over 18.2. The things that are hard to get used to are the things that make Linux Linux. Getting comfortable using terminal, pulling your hair out with dependency problems, learning to mount drives, taking the "advice" of experienced users and bricking your system, trying to get drivers to work, and many more. These are the things that make Linux a huge learning curve over Windows and OsX and, quite frankly, makes folks run back to those OSs. Mint has made many of these things less painful but they are still there. I haven't experienced any real bugs yet but linux is not so easy to learn and I don't believe that 17.3 changes that. If you don't want to hear "whining" maybe stay off the beginner's forum?
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by lexon »

I am not new but have been using 18.0 since it came out.
:Last few months after I uploaded new feature I started getting a page that tells me to select a user and sign in and sometimes no connection with my router. Nothing I do signs me in. I have to shut down and power up. Maybe two or three times before I get to my desktop and router connection.
Since I started with 6.0, I always did auto log in. Still have to enter PW for upgrades.
Not looking for help.
I will install 18 again as all my files are on a external hard drive for Mint or Windows.
No idea if this is the techies messing with users or a bug.
If this continues I will just go back to 17.3.
I have been learning the failure is not an option. It comes bundled with Windows and sometimes Linux. Just look at all the messages in these forums. Forget about other Linux forums.

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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Night Wing »

sphyrth wrote:I'm having small irks with Sonya because of some removed functionalities (No more buttons for hot corners, no option to auto-log in, no more snapping to the sides). But these are mere issues of "getting used to".
Some functionalities have not been removed in Sonya. I'm using 64 bit Mint 18.2 (Sonya) Xfce and the auto login feature is still there when one installs Mint from a clean install which formats (wipes) the hard drive. It is right after putting in and confirmation of your password for the installation of Mint (18.2). And the auto login feature is not checked my default. One has to select it.

And all of my windows snap to the side too.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Pjotr »

Cosmo. wrote:
exploder wrote:There are a couple regressions with the Ubuntu 16.04 base
... but also in Mint itself, which are (supposed to be) under the control of the Mint team. For example the wrong ownership of files, created by the update manager. Or the silently removed delay, when you move with mouse diagonally in the Cinnamon menu (for me a deal breaker). Or xed not autoclosing after saving file changes. Or Nemo showing the wrong file types. - I mentioned here only issues, which have been introduced with LM 18 or above.
Small "beauty blemishes", nothing serious. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill, or as they say in Dutch: don't make a mosquito into an elephant.

Definitely no reason to stay away from 18.2; it's a fine release which I highly recommend to everybody. This whole thread is overly, and unjustly, negative. Its title alone is totally false and might wrongly scare off people.

Linux Mint 18.2: the very best that desktop Linux currently has to offer! :mrgreen:
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Cosmo. »

What you name a mosquito - do you even know, that this can be a very dangerous animal? - is for others a serious thing. In one case I named it above as a deal breaker.

And what might be the reasoning to use a version with bugs (I only mentioned a few, there are more), if there exist a version without all of them? Are bugs a new kind of features? If 18.2 is for you the best, than 17.3 is divine and celestial.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Pjotr »

Cosmo. wrote:And what might be the reasoning to use a version with bugs (I only mentioned a few, there are more), if there exist a version without all of them? Are bugs a new kind of features? If 18.2 is for you the best, than 17.3 is divine and celestial.
No, it's not. I quite like the novelties and innovations in 18.2. Old 17.x is OK, but it's still yesterday's stuff.

I don't care about the small, unimportant bugs in 18.2. And I think they're probably unimportant for the vast majority of users, as well.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Cosmo. »

Pjotr wrote:it's still yesterday's stuff.
This is a phrase, nothing more. If "yesterday" means stability and "today" means bugs, yes then I am a man from yesterday and I am proud about it. Values supersede higher version numbers!
Pjotr wrote:I don't care about the small, unimportant bugs in 18.2. And I think they're probably unimportant for the vast majority of users, as well.
I never claimed to write for a (vast) majority. I write for myself; this should be easily recognizable by my words "for me a deal breaker"; if this is to difficult to understand, I cannot help.

I wrote already half a year ago, what I whished to get in 18.2 and I also wrote, that the perspective does not look good. After being able to look at the final result I must unfortunately notice, that my concerns had been right.
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Re: New people need to stop using 18.X and use 17.3.

Post by Pjotr »

Cosmo. wrote:
Pjotr wrote:I don't care about the small, unimportant bugs in 18.2. And I think they're probably unimportant for the vast majority of users, as well.
I never claimed to write for a (vast) majority. I write for myself; this should be easily recognizable by my words "for me a deal breaker"; if this is to difficult to understand, I cannot help.

I wrote already half a year ago, what I whished to get in 18.2 and I also wrote, that the perspective does not look good. After being able to look at the final result I must unfortunately notice, that my concerns had been right.
For you, personally. This cannot be stressed enough.

My concern with this entire thread is, that it simply evokes unjust negativity from all sides and creates a wrongly negative public image of 18.2. Its title is spreading FUD (unwarranted Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) pure and simple, and might needlessly scare off other people.

For that reason alone, I would welcome it if the mods would close this thread.
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