<SOLVED> Finally; I have to admit defeat.

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Spinner912
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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 7:50 pm

jimallyn: Likewise, sometimes my responses are a bit over the top, particularly when at the point of frustration leaving me with a feeling of almost wanting to throw the computer into the nearest toilet bowl. I thought these things were conceived to assist with solutions and not make problems. But at times, the opposite seems to be the case - like this failure has been.

Similarly, no insult or accusation was intended.

But what has come of all this, apart from a couple of not so necessary comments, is that there has been a flurry of assistance which I really do appreciate. I am doing everything reasonably recommended by these advisors to see if this ridiculous situation can be resolved.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 7:57 pm

Pjotr: I have installed kernel 3.13.0-119 as suggested, updated GRUB and rebooted.

No sign of that kernel in the system. The GRUB list still shows -024 and inxi confirms that that kernel is still running.

It seems not a lot of point going to the 4.4 kernels when the thing doesn't seem to be accepting changes.

Any further?

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by GlennJohnson » Mon May 22, 2017 8:05 pm

Have you tried a different graphics cable? You never know...
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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 8:34 pm

Thanks Glenn: That is certainly worth a try. In fact DVI does not function on either OS. Good suggestion.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 8:39 pm

Pjotr:

Further to the kernel advice, I have just taken a look at Update Manager->View and have noted that

kernel 3.13.0-119 is Installed but not Loaded.
kernel 3.13.0-24 (3.13.9) is Loaded.
kernel 3.19.0-32 is Recommended, Installed, but not Loaded.

Does mean, or explain, anything?

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by jimallyn » Mon May 22, 2017 9:33 pm

Spinner912 wrote:I thought these things were conceived to assist with solutions and not make problems.
You'd think. My uncle used to say "confuser" rather than "computer."
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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by phd21 » Mon May 22, 2017 9:37 pm

Hi "Spinner912",

If you boot into "Advanced Options", then pick the 3.19.x-xx Kernel, when the desktop comes up, re-run the "inxi -Fxzd" command to see if the fact that you have been booting to an older Linux Kernel is the problem. Not sure why your system is booting to an older kernel? You can even try installing the next higher Linux Kernel...

The nVidia drivers are not still not working, not loading. If after booting to the 3.19 Kernel series, you still cannot load the Nvidia video card drivers, then use the "sudo apt-get purge nvidia*" command to remove the Nvidia drives completely and use the default video drivers. And, maybe the video card and or cables have gone bad and need to be replaced.

Regarding my comment "Keep in mind that your computer is 10+ years old", is to remind you and others that computer equipment does wear out. The fact that your DVI cable does not work either? Also, video cards are very sensitive to static electricity and other electrical problems (power surges). You can easily "short out" a video card by trying to connect a video cable while the computer and or monitor screen is on, or if you get a power surge that restarts your computer, a good static charge shock touching your computer, even nearby lightening strikes... Each of the previous conditions can result in total video not working or harder to detect intermittent video problems.

Everyone should be using good surge protectors, or even better, a good battery backup (UPS)...

Good luck and keep us posted...

Hope this helps ...
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by thom_A » Mon May 22, 2017 10:36 pm

Mine is probably much older than yours. It says: Intel Pentium Dual CPU E2160 @1.80Ghz. Although I added a newer but cheap Nvidia card, GeForce 8400 GS about 2 years ago for $40, which you can probably get for $20 or less on ebay nowadays.

So it's most likely not about the machine being ten years old, fact that older computers are supposed to be the ones that have the most chances of getting successful Linux installation. By this time all drivers of 10 yr old PCs are supposed to be available even years ago, as opposed to newer ones.

I use the 64 bit Mint 18.1 to keep up with the times. BTW, I used whatever version Mint recommends for the driver. This machine uses the 340.102 version.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:20 pm

Phd21: Before I go down this road, whilst digging around a few minutes ago, I came across a file in the folder /etc/modprobe.d called disable-nouveau.conf Maybe this is why nouveau keeps showing up as failed. Should I do anything about that?

Then, at the risk of sounding a real newbie, how exactly do I bootup in Advanced Options?

Re: static and surges. I have tried to be meticulous about avoiding static when handling cards, and I make a practice of turning the machine off completely before connecting or disconnecting cables. Surges are not likely to be a problem as for years, I have used a good UPS. In fact, even that may be redundant as I have an off-grid battery power system with a solar generating system, so the entire house runs on battery power 24/7. Hopefully there are no problems there.

As for the cables, I have rationalised that not loading software probably has little to do with cables, particularly when Windows run successfully on the same cables.

But I will certainly go with your advice.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Mon May 22, 2017 11:25 pm

Thom_A: Thanks for the reply. I thought I had the oldest computer. But you take the prize. And yes; I was also under the impression that Linux had a better chance at running well on older machines than that other OS.

But in the event, it is the other OS which is operating well, albeit not with everything as it should be, and that is a bit galling.

So the cables and hardware thoughts are being put in the background for the moment because of the success with Win 10. I would still much prefer Mint than that option.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Tue May 23, 2017 2:43 am

Phd21: I worked out that to boot to Advanced Options one needs to hold down the Shift key during the actual boot. This I have done and Mint 17.3 not only wants to boot to the incorrect kernel, but I can get no "Advanced Options".

To check that what I was doing was what you wanted, I then tried it on the newly installed, but unused, Mint 18.1. There I do get an "Advanced Options" line in the Grub menu. I didn't continue as to date I have no luck in booting to 18.1. Merely a black screen, "nomodeset" or not.

Any suggestions as to how to overcome this one? I am particularly interested in getting 17.3 up and running with a more usable display resolution as that is where all my data files - lots, and lots, of them - are situated. I do have backups before you ask.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue May 23, 2017 4:02 am

Just a couple of observations on this, it's not showing the incorrect kernel in 17.3. You installed a later kernel to 18.1 unless I missed you doing it in the 17.3 install as well. They are two seperate OS's and one has nothing to do with the other. Other than if you allowed 18.1 to install it's grub2, it'll now be the main one in control of the boot process on the system. I am NOT the person to ask about proprietary vid drivers in gnu/Nix. I've always used the open source drivers w/o any problems. Only had 1 laptop with Nvidia graphics and LM 14-xfce with nouveau did fine on it for me.

This is a real hail mary play and every time I've ever suggested it to anyone seemingly having serious problems with a dedicated video-card it wasn't well recieved. Which is understandable, why have a video-card and not be able to use it. Though might consider disabling that puppy and trying the integrated mobo graphics w open source drivers ? Perhaps could give you an improvement ... dunno. Stuff along the lines of this. If it's applicable to your situation.
Edit: By that I mean the OP there above flatout says, hey I get better graphics in gnu/Nix with the integrated stuff fellas.
Tell the truth, have never even had a system with a dedi vidcard so never had to deal with what I'd suggested above and have ( and will continue) to avoid this proprietary vid-driver mess/maze like the plague and use the open source ones. They've always worked just fine on pc's I've had. Of all the pita's I've seen while dorking with gnu/Linux this subject is one that seems to pop up over and over endlessly. Apparently having caused many a nixer MUCH pain, suffering and hair pulling. The blackscreen of death thing, jmo, were you getting something video/graphics-wise out of it when you'd 1st installed it ? Your earlier posts suggest you were with nomodereset or etc. If so would perhaps suggest reinstalling the thing and this time around maybe try exploring the integrated/open source route ?

A related memory to this, vividly remember the pic of Linus Torvalds giving Nvidia the finger for their undying support for graphics and drivers in gnu/Linux. Am sure he didn't flip them the bird w/o good reason. :D

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Pjotr » Tue May 23, 2017 4:41 am

As lmintnewb2 already remarked: you've probably got two Linux distro's next to each other on the hard disk (dual boot), and the Grub of the other distro is the dominant one. Solution: boot into the distro with the dominant Grub and run this terminal command:

Code: Select all

sudo update-grub
Then reboot. All should be well, at least where the kernel version is concerned.
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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by thom_A » Tue May 23, 2017 9:57 am

lmintnewb2 wrote:Though might consider disabling that puppy and trying the integrated mobo graphics w open source drivers ? Perhaps could give you an improvement ... dunno.
I would agree with this. Mine, as I've mentioned, is older than his. It didn't come with a Nvidia card and the only reason why I added it is because I wanted another monitor to attach to it like a TV, for instance. But that's only once in a blue moon. With or without it, everything is the same. Meaning, I can remove it and it won't make a difference. So if I were him I would do what you're suggesting here. Most likely I'd just probably physically remove the card.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:27 pm

Pjotr: I have now run update-grub, and as expected, nothing changes. Although I have installed the later kernel as you suggested, it still remains "installed" but nor "loaded". The original older kernel remains stubbornly, the only one shown in the GRUB and in Update Manager, it is shown as "Installed", and "loaded". And I do not know how to change that.

The other thing is that although I have chosen kernel 3.13.0-119 (the latest), Update Manager shows -35 as "Recommended" Which should I go for? And unless I know how to force the change, I don't know how it would help anyway.

For clarification, although I have three OS available in this box, each is on a separate HDD, and I choose the required boot disk from BIOS Beet Menu each time. So there should be no conflict between OS - should there?

What next?
Last edited by Spinner912 on Tue May 23, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:33 pm

lmintnewb2: Thank you for your suggestion. The Motherboard in my old system has no specific in-built graphics function. Does this preclude simply removing the graphics card, or would the system handle graphics output without a dedicated card?

If that would work, how would I incorporate such a change into the existing 17.3 system. Although I have found similar problems in the 18.1 installation, all of this applies only to the 17.3 system. I really would prefer to not upgrade to 18.1 at this point in time because everything is so organised on the 17.3 HDD that I would like to continue that way for the foreseeable future (at least until say, 2020).

Any procedural steps you could suggest would be greatly appreciated. But only with respect to the 17.3 system.

lmintnewb2

Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:06 am

Yeah your mobo should have integrated graphics capabilities. This old cheapy 5+ yr old laptop I'm typing on doesn't have a dedi graphics card ( using the integrated graphics and xserver-xorg-video-radeon open source driver.) The output of the cmd "xrandr" is telling me I'm presently getting 1366 x 768 resolution.

Integrated and open source have never given me any problem. Whereas the proprietary drivers and dedi vid-cards seem to be a constant source of massive butt pains for many gnu/Linux users. You should be able to take the card out and/or don't doubt it's possible to disable it via the OS too. Again though, that's something you'd really need to take up with your search engine of choice.

The thing about wrong kernel you're having with LM 18.1, you need to edit the /etc/default/grub file to choose the kernel you want to boot default and then "sudo update-grub" afterwards. It used to be that the last kernel someone installed became <hold on, placeholder> I don't have grub on this OS and need to reboot. Arghhh! :)
Last edited by lmintnewb2 on Wed May 24, 2017 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by Spinner912 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:37 am

lmintnewb2: Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately this ASUS motherboard provides no graphics output port. It seems that no graphics card, no monitor connection.

lmintnewb2

Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed May 24, 2017 1:48 am

Yowza ... that's just weird. No graphics port ??!?! Well so much for integrated. Perhaps you could explore replacing your current graphics card with something less painful and gnu/Nix friendly. Electronics prices being what they are and in a pinch sheesh, see what's available second-hand. Could turn out dirt cheap and not like replacing a graphics card requires NASA.

Though yeah it'd drive me nuts too if I had a high-resolution monitor and was limited to what you're experiencing. Barring integrated, replacement and ridding yourself of this nonsense is the only other thing that occurs.

The /etc/default/grub thing, rather than reinvent the wheel anyone curious can google up on it. Trying to do a boot menu mock-up and outline how selecting grub_default in submenus works in grub2 is a nightmare. Though used to be the last kernel installed automatically became default, apparently that's changed.

Here's a good link on grub2.

Think this type of stuff is really cool.
Disable submenu

If you have multiple kernels installed, say linux and linux-lts, by default grub-mkconfig groups them in a submenu. If you do not like this behaviour you can go back to one single menu by adding the following line to /etc/default/grub:

GRUB_DISABLE_SUBMENU=y

Recall previous entry

GRUB can remember the last entry you booted from and use this as the default entry to boot from next time. This is useful if you have multiple kernels (i.e., the current Arch one and the LTS kernel as a fallback option) or operating systems. To do this, edit /etc/default/grub and change the value of GRUB_DEFAULT:

GRUB_DEFAULT=saved

This ensures that GRUB will default to the saved entry. To enable saving the selected entry, add the following line to /etc/default/grub:

GRUB_SAVEDEFAULT=true
Asus ... wait till Mr Torvalds hears of this treachery !!!! :)

lmintnewb2

Re: Finally; I have to admit defeat.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:49 am

Why not ... one more and some parting thoughts eh.

Rediscovered this sucker while nosing around about this graphics mess, had forgotten all about it. Install the package "lshw" and run it in terminal with "sudo lshw". You want to know more than you ever wanted to know about your box, that'll do it. :)

For instance, it showed me I have an empty ram slot and can upgrade this puppy to 8gbs. I won't ... cause I don't really use what I've got now but it's good to know. Speaking of knowing thy hardware, think it's important. People who want great graphics performance and graphics cards in gnu/Linux need to do their homework beforehand. Make sure they're getting something Nix friendly.

OP you'll be better prepared hopefully next time. So don't throw in the towel dude, throw in a different graphics card and throw on your thinking cap. :)

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