You can almost feel it, can't you?

jameskga · Post by **jameskga** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:14 am

What a fascinating and enlightening discussion. I could read this all night-- wait, I just did.

I hope I am not interrupting you, Clem and Cosmo. But after reading your exchange, I have a renewed respect for Linux Mint and the minds that work together toward the shared purpose of making Mint the best operating system there is. Cosmo raised some difficult questions in that fierce writing style that he has, and Clem responded every bit as eloquently as the lead developer of an operating system would, and with the language necessary not just to convey his ideas to Cosmo at the technical level, but to reassure and educate people like myself, down here where we're barely aware of our own hands, and still eating soft food.

Any FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) raised by outside critics of the OS could be put to rest by reading this conversation today, but also it's a kind of negativity that has no place in constructive public discourse, and certainly doesn't hold a candle to the brilliance of the community we witness here. Thank you for having these important discussions in the open, as part of the process of creating the world's friendliest, most capable operating system for everyone to enjoy. For free.

I've just been here a year, but this is why I will stay on Linux Mint forever.

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:21 am

clem wrote:One argument which goes your way, and I'm surprised you didn't mention it, is that a Firefox regression only impacts Firefox itself and this app is well known to users. As such, and we've clearly seen this in the past, people are able to immediately identify the update responsible for the regression. That is a valid argument to lower its level because it means it doesn't need to "stand out" as much within the list of updates.

Actually I did write, that a Firefox regression only impacts Firefox, see here (last paragraph). I did not repeat this in the discussion with you, because this fact is such a primitive self-evidence, that I thought it would be a kind of insult against you; and this is the last thing I want to do (not only against you, but especially against you). As you can see in the linked thread I wrote some aspects more and I also did not want to simply repeat myself.

Post by **clem** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:54 am

Quick follow-up on this. We had the opportunity to talk about it within the team as well and to implement the solutions we talked about:

- Firefox was lowered to level 1 (mintupdate 5.2.9).
- The systray will count all visible updates (this was implemented already on github but it requires new translations on launchpad, that takes a bit of time so it will be pushed post-release, probably in mintupdate 5.3.0).

Regarding the release progress, you can keep an eye on the roadmap. We're getting there very quickly. All translations were updated today and we should be entering QA again.

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:01 am

clem wrote:Quick follow-up on this. We had the opportunity to talk about it within the team as well and to implement the solutions we talked about:

- Firefox was lowered to level 1 (mintupdate 5.2.9).
- The systray will count all visible updates (this was implemented already on github but it requires new translations on launchpad, that takes a bit of time so it will be pushed post-release, probably in mintupdate 5.3.0).

Regarding the release progress, you can keep an eye on the roadmap. We're getting there very quickly. All translations were updated today and we should be entering QA again.

Good news!

Dutch translation is done.

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:04 am

jameskga wrote:Cosmo raised some difficult questions in that fierce writing style that he has

If you see it so, I am sorry. My principle in discussion is (and always was) to behave correct and respectful against the opponent, but to be as precise as possible and consequent on the matter. You will never hear me saying "Do you allow me to express a different opinion"; I say, what I mean, and if i mean, that the standpoint of the opponent is wrong, I say so clearly. My opponent shall know, what I mean, not having to guess. But this does not mean, that I do not have respect for the opponent; the contrary is right - especially regarding Clem. If this would not be the case, I would not trust in the product, which he provides to us and consequently I would not use Mint.

Even less I would invest my time for supporting Mint and Mint users. Without doubt the main activity for a supporter is to troubleshoot problems of the users, give them answers and present solutions. But in my understanding supporting a great product like Mint does also include to inspect the software - especially in a beta phase (and here I invest very much time) - and put a finger on a wound, if I find one. IMO it would be a bad behavior to write later - perhaps on a different place -, that I always knew, that this or that was wrong from the beginning.

I am happy that Clem invested his time to take in depth part into this discussion. In the end the decisions will be solely in his competence (and responsibility). But I got the chance to show him my objections and he has obviously understood me (despite, that his opinion is contrary). Even if the critical things will - to my understanding - make it into the final release I think, that the invested time for the discussion was not a waste of time.

One last point: Clem had said sorry, because of hijacking the thread. I don't feel bad at least because of this and I do not think, that we hijacked here. Not only, because you (the OP) more or less initiated the discussion yourself with this question, but also by reading your replies in the thread, not at least your last one. If we were able to find your interest - at least from my side this was intended.

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:08 am

clem wrote:- Firefox was lowered to level 1 (mintupdate 5.2.9).
- The systray will count all visible updates (this was implemented already on github but it requires new translations on launchpad, that takes a bit of time so it will be pushed post-release, probably in mintupdate 5.3.0).

Bravo Clem, I am very happy to read this.

This is more, than I expected.

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:45 am

I've just installed Update Manager 5.2.9 from the .deb package, in order to test it. Firefox has indeed disappeared from the level 3 list in /usr/lib/linuxmint/mintUpdate/rules.

But the help text of Update Manager 5.2.9 still appears to need some updating as well, because of the level change of Firefox. See the screenshot below (click on it to enlarge it):

It looks like a simple removal of the words such as Firefox, will be enough. When I check the translation strings of mintUpdate, this is the only place where Firefox is being mentioned.

Website · Post by **Moem** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:14 am

... Ahem. Please carry on.

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:18 am

Addendum:

clem wrote:Instead we're here in front of an audience ...

Can you tell me a better place?

As you know, I had initially opened an issue regarding the Firefox level at GitHub. Problem there was, that for more than 2 weeks came no reaction (except another user complaining); so at some point I had to assume, that this will get abandoned.

But for the password issue (or decision) I had the problem, that I did not find a proper to place this. None of the sections at github/linuxmint seem to match. I don't ask this, because I want to reopen the discussion at another place, don't worry.

I have another subject, which needs to get handled: The pre-installed virtualbox-guest-additions; a topic, which gives trouble again and again. Also for this I do not see a proper place, where to report and describe this issue. Any suggestion? (This topic does really not fit into this thread, as the issue exists as long, as I can remember.)

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:21 am

@Moem:

I love animals. Please carry on (but not here).

Post by **JosephM** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:28 pm

The best place for one on one discussion with a dev is #linuxmint-dev on IRC. As I've said before, none of the devs really frequent here. I just happened to see the particular one and point it out. Using IRC can require a bit of patience due to time zone differences. Many of the devs are always logged in there but may not always be paying attention.

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:51 pm

Thank you for answering, Joseph, but IRC is out of some reasons (patience is not the problem) not an option for me.

Let me add a related question:
As there are sections for nearly everything on gh/linuxmintcom: Can it be, that a section for such aspects, which are Mint-specific, has simply been forgotten to create?

jameskga · Post by **jameskga** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:20 pm

No Cosmo. I like your writing style. I think it's cool!

'Fierce' is not a negative adjective. I did not mean to get tangled up on words. I actually meant to say you have a strong demeanor and also you make heavy statements that warrant a response. I'm glad for that. We all are.

I'll read the rest later. I am at work right now

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:42 am

It's a matter of days now, because the final iso's are already being tested:
https://community.linuxmint.com/iso

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:28 am

Hopefully the new bug in update manager regarding the partially missing package information will be fixed before release.

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:22 am

Cosmo. wrote:Hopefully the new bug in update manager regarding the partially missing package information will be fixed before release.

Clem has commented on GitHub....

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:47 am

Thank you. I just got (a few minutes later) the notification via mail about Clem's comment and have elaborated as requested.

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:49 am

I can't reproduce the problem (VM with Mint 18.2 Mate, Update Manager 5.2.9):

and:

Descriptions are visible as they should....

Cosmo. · Post by **Cosmo.** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:59 am

Pjotr, you misunderstood.

At first I speak about the description tab, not about the changelog-tab.

At second: Select another update; I don't get mintdesktop, most likely because of the different DE we use. A better example would be mintmenu, which we have both. Do you see a list of affected packages at the bottom of the description tab? I don't. But e g. for pix I get the list of affected packages (as I also wrote at GH).

EDIT: The upper part of this post has been written, before you provided the second screenshot.

Another misunderstanding: I did not say, that the description is missing; it appears here also. But as you can see on your screenshot, there is no affected package listed at the bottom of the description. Compare it with the description of pix. Or libarchive or libepoxy.

Pjotr · Post by **Pjotr** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:03 am

Description tab looks normal, too. I've edited my previous message.

I'll test with another package.

Linux Mint Forums

You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?

Re: You can almost feel it, can't you?