mint and personal views...

Chat about anything related to Linux Mint
User avatar
Arron
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:24 pm

mint and personal views...

Post by Arron » Sat May 02, 2009 9:44 pm

Ok, What the hell is going on? I love Linux for its ideals, and i truly love Mint for its amazing system (way ahead of other distros imho), the work put into it and the great community here on the forums.

But how is mint being dragged into personal views as a political token? This really sickens me, what is up with this? Has the site been hacked? Has something happened personally to someone to want to lash out? If so maybe some cool down time might be a better option.

Can someone tell me how "from freedom came elegance" changed to "if you don't believe in what I do, don't use it"?

Sorry to vent some, this does really urk me! I preached about, converted others on the idea, and loved Mint to much for this to happen.

Someone tell me the mint blog has been hacked?

User avatar
tdapple
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:14 am
Location: Plano, TX
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by tdapple » Sat May 02, 2009 9:48 pm

I believe it is Clems honest personal belief, and as the founder of Mint, I would guess he could blog anything he wants. The issue obviously disturbs him(whether I agree or not) and he needed to vent. It still doesn't take away from Mint as a distro.

User avatar
Old Marcus
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 389
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Exeter, UK

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by Old Marcus » Sat May 02, 2009 11:16 pm

As a distro, Mint is still awesome, but I refuse to base my software usage on my political beliefs. I will still request help and offer help here, regardless of whether I am talking to an American, Israeli or Martian. And if Clem wants to exclude people who do that without believing what he does, then he is a fool.
Linux Mint 8 RC1 = Nice
'apt install' can be used on Linux Mint as a shortcut for 'sudo apt-get install'. 'apt x' can be used for various other apt commands as well.
When a problem is solved, please add [SOLVED] to your thread title.

FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1284
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by FedoraRefugee » Sat May 02, 2009 11:25 pm

Wow! I did not know about this.

I respect Clem and his right to whatever views he wants. I think it is an unfortunate mistake putting an ultimatum like that up in a place that has nothing to do with the situation. I will say right now that as an unblinded Christian I fully support Israel and I know exactly what is happening in these end times. These are MY beliefs and I hold every right to them as Clem does his. I do not want a fight or a war, I just want to use the OS of my choice. I came here from Fedora because I see a lot of potential with this distro and I enjoy using it. I do not want to leave it.

But Clem, knowing my personal and political views, if you want me to give up your distro then just let me know and I will go back to Fedora. I do this to honor you, no one is forcing me. This distro has NOTHING to do with any religious or political views.

midas
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:47 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by midas » Sun May 03, 2009 4:02 am

Yeah, also wow to me! I certainly read between the lines a very engaged Clem in the blogpost. If you want to follow the line Clem is displaying to 'issues' in other parts of the world? China for instance? Not only talking about Tibet-issue but also talking what has happened to a lot of Chinese people and still happening on a very large scale in Chinese prisons? The world is on fire and we have to take our responsibilities whenever we can. It is simply the fact that everyone has the basic human right of a roof over the head, enough food, living without fear, never being prisoned or tortured for political or idealistic reasons. Whatever our mindsets or beliefs or political idealogies are. We live in very decisive century now....the life of whole the planet is at stake.

But I think also it's a very strange move from Clem connecting the usage of Mint to his personal views. Leave politics and personal views out please! Only ventilate them in topics like these :D

We need people building bridges now...
Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon (64 bits)

Craig
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:54 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by Craig » Sun May 03, 2009 4:25 am

I personally do not agree with any war that is not justified. Linux Mint is possibly the best Linux distribution that I have used and I've used a few but I'm not sure that putting political views into the project was the best way too vent anything when it comes to your personal views and I do not think it was the best thing to do when it concerns the project.

It's opinions like this particularly that many would say it should be kept too themselves because it's only going to create controversy that will effectively not go on to help this project in the future and I would have to agree with that.

We should all respect peoples views but that does not make them right too everyone reading it or in general because they also have a view on the matter and they may believe it to be wrong.

I do no not think the move was right too put Linux Mint and your works in the spotlight of a political debate which might even over-shadow the release of Linux Mint 7 and future releases and the project as a whole.

But besides that, nobody should be asked to give up their view or belief on something in exchange for Linux Mint as it is free software "with freedom came elegance" and I say this from a unbiased view.

I hope the future of Linux Mint is not put into doubt by this decision because it's such a great Linux distribution but if it is then we will have the understanding of why that was the case.

User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2045
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by MALsPa » Sun May 03, 2009 6:01 am

Yes. There's nothing good about tying politics and religion to Linux Mint or Linux. I'm sure that Clem is a good guy, and I understand that he felt that this issue was important enough for him to speak out about it. Speaking out about it is fine, but bringing Mint into it doesn't help the situation and doesn't help Mint.

mercier
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by mercier » Sun May 03, 2009 4:58 pm

thanks clem for being open with us and sharing your personal beliefs. you are a brave man.

i started using mint since i found it to be the best linux distro for a beginner, with great community always willing to help.

i will continue to use mint, and i will consider it as small effort for reconciliation from someone who comes from the continent and a background with centuries long history of abuse and persecution of my people, and are continuing to do so, by financialy and logisticaly supporting never-ending quest to exterminate the jewish nation.

since all the jewish property and lives from france and ireland are long gone - never to be returned, a small linux distro is as good as one can hope.

you should not worry about the future of mint - i'm sure that gazillions of petrodollars will make their way to a brave and informed person as you are.

Craig
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:54 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by Craig » Mon May 04, 2009 5:36 am

I just want to add something to my previous post.

I still support Linux Mint and will continue to use it and I admire the fact that you have shared your views so that people were in the know but the only thing I disagree with was them being vented here although doing so can also have a positive effect just as much as it can a negative one as we will see.

I do not agree with any war like I stated particularly when innocent people are getting killed and I'm not one to choose sides either so I just hope that Linux Mint is not perceived in this way because of these comments because a lot of users in this community i'm sure have their own thoughts on this situation and rightfully so because we have a right to an opinion even if people consider it right or wrong.

And it's not something that should come into it when picking Linux Mint because there should be more respect towards the actual project and it's community when that is the case because like it's been bluntly displayed we don't all have the same opinions but the unity is still there and am sure Linux Mint will go on to more success because of this.

After editing your comments further and moving them to somewhere more appropriate I think it's done a lot of justice and shows that you are professional in that respect and do care about Linux Mint users who have their own thoughts on the situation even if you do not particularly agree with them.

On a more positive note great work on Linux Mint by the way Clem (and the team).

User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4126
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by clem » Mon May 04, 2009 6:36 am

Hi,

I know this raised a lot of questions and I understand that you need to clear things about this. I don't have much time for it though as I really need to get this release out of the way. I just want to say two things:

- I expressed personal opinions in the wrong place and I'm sorry I made it look like this applied to the team or the distribution. As far as both the team and the distribution are concerned, nothing is changed for them.

- Even though it was in the wrong way and in the wrong place, I'm glad I managed to let people know what I felt about this conflict.

I'm happy enough to let this thread open so everyone gets a chance to express their opinion about this (although in fairness we're probably already at around 400 comments so far altogether). As some of you mentioned (and were right to mention): This is not the place for politics. So please don't be too fast in implementing Godwin's law and keep the discussion calm and open.

When a topic is so sensitive and there are so many comments it becomes really hard to efficiently moderate it, that's why I'm asking this. If this can't be moderated we'll end up locking the thread.

Please address your questions to me by email, and be polite and open when addressing each others.

Thanks in advance and apologies for how this was initially handled.

Clem.

Edit: I'm saying this due to the sensitive nature of the topic, not in reaction to anyone's post in this thread. Somebody asked me if that was targeted at him, and it's not targeted at anyone above. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Image

User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4126
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by clem » Mon May 04, 2009 6:55 am

since all the jewish property and lives from france and ireland are long gone
My mother's been living with someone for a good few years now (my parents are separated), he's French, Jewish, and they live in France. He's quite a nice guy and he's definitely very much alive. I don't know who's Jewish here in Ireland, as in fairness that's not something we talk much about. But I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some people with that religion in these two countries.

As far as persecution goes, the only group of people who are victim of it nowadays in France are the travelers. Same goes in Ireland, and it's particularly hard to acknowledge since that's been going on for decades and they too had quite a tough time in the 40's. I would also add that there is an increasing and worrying trend in Ireland against Polish and Eastern-Europeans, I think it's mostly because of their impact on the economy (they work harder and cheaper than the local crowd, so in some industries they didn't get very popular) and the fact that most of them migrated at around the same time and didn't plan to stay.

Now, back to the Jewish people in France and Ireland. What you say was true in the 40's but not after the war. I've had a lot of friends in France, from childhood to university and I can tell you, I didn't witness any such discrimination. I'm not sure I even know most of my friend's religions in France.

Clem.
now I'm definitely gone, just needed to answer that one. I'll be looking at the release notes now.
Image

mercier
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by mercier » Mon May 04, 2009 9:01 am

clem wrote:
since all the jewish property and lives from france and ireland are long gone
My mother's been living with someone for a good few years now (my parents are separated), he's French, Jewish, and they live in France. He's quite a nice guy and he's definitely very much alive. I don't know who's Jewish here in Ireland, as in fairness that's not something we talk much about. But I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some people with that religion in these two countries.

As far as persecution goes, the only group of people who are victim of it nowadays in France are the travelers. Same goes in Ireland, and it's particularly hard to acknowledge since that's been going on for decades and they too had quite a tough time in the 40's. I would also add that there is an increasing and worrying trend in Ireland against Polish and Eastern-Europeans, I think it's mostly because of their impact on the economy (they work harder and cheaper than the local crowd, so in some industries they didn't get very popular) and the fact that most of them migrated at around the same time and didn't plan to stay.

Now, back to the Jewish people in France and Ireland. What you say was true in the 40's but not after the war. I've had a lot of friends in France, from childhood to university and I can tell you, I didn't witness any such discrimination. I'm not sure I even know most of my friend's religions in France.

Clem.
now I'm definitely gone, just needed to answer that one. I'll be looking at the release notes now.
your reply is as close to facts as your famous blog "post".

imagine my surprise...

FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1284
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by FedoraRefugee » Mon May 04, 2009 9:56 am

mercier wrote:your reply is as close to facts as your famous blog "post".

imagine my surprise...
My friend, I do not know your religion, but if you know the Bible, or Tanakh, then this all should come as no shock to you. Do not blame Clem, he is just blind to this because he does not have the Word. He doesnt understand. We are waiting for Daniels final seven, we have the map and things have gone according to prophecy so far so we know the end. Being a Christian I may have a different story than you do, we both shall see how that unfolds in the future, probably with our own eyes. The time is coming, the Temple will be restored. But dont blame those who do not know this. Much wrong has been done on both sides. Hamas is the problem, Iran is poised. Like in Belshazzar's day the writing is on the wall. But let's not make the same mistake Clem did. For whatever reason he was compelled to air his views. Let's just let it drop now.

I ask this of everyone. We are here because we enjoy this distro. No more than that. It does not matter where you come from in the world, what language you speak, what god you believe (or not believe) in, or what political ideals you hold. Linux brings us all together as brothers. Why look for things to rip us apart, the world is a harsh enough place. Let the warriors fight, let the politicians lie. What has all that got to do with us in here? You might not like my religion or my politics, but so what? I am not here for those. I am here for Linux Mint.

User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2045
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by MALsPa » Mon May 04, 2009 10:49 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:My friend, I do not know your religion, but if you know the Bible, or Tanakh, then this all should come as no shock to you. Do not blame Clem, he is just blind to this because he does not have the Word. He doesnt understand. We are waiting for Daniels final seven, we have the map and things have gone according to prophecy so far so we know the end. Being a Christian I may have a different story than you do, we both shall see how that unfolds in the future, probably with our own eyes. The time is coming, the Temple will be restored. But dont blame those who do not know this. Much wrong has been done on both sides. Hamas is the problem, Iran is poised. Like in Belshazzar's day the writing is on the wall. But let's not make the same mistake Clem did. For whatever reason he was compelled to air his views.
Yeah, right (cough, cough). You should have left all that out, and just started with:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Let's just let it drop now.

I ask this of everyone. We are here because we enjoy this distro. No more than that. It does not matter where you come from in the world, what language you speak, what god you believe (or not believe) in, or what political ideals you hold. Linux brings us all together as brothers. Why look for things to rip us apart, the world is a harsh enough place. Let the warriors fight, let the politicians lie. What has all that got to do with us in here? You might not like my religion or my politics, but so what? I am not here for those. I am here for Linux Mint.

FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1284
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by FedoraRefugee » Mon May 04, 2009 11:06 am

MALsPa wrote:Yeah, right (cough, cough). You should have left all that out, and just started with:
Why? :D

Because YOU dont happen to believe it? That is too bad because everything that has happened up to this point and everything that is to come is all written down in one place where you can read it. It has been for 2000 years or so now, if you include the Revelation, which is the final act. If you dont choose to include that book and just want to stick with Daniel then this information has been available for 2500 years. Of course you really need to go to Genesis and read about Ishmael and Isaac to understand what is really happening here. I dont suppose that the fact that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all believe this history would lend it any credence in your mind? No...well...Doesnt matter, it shall all come to pass anyway. :D

But maybe you are right, maybe I should have left that out. I was just trying to relate to mercier and to show that many of us do understand. This can also be seen in reading the responses to Clem's blog. It really is pretty amazing that most, if not all, of the Israelis and Jews that commented were gracious and even understanding. Just a little food for thought.

User avatar
MALsPa
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2045
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Location: albuquerque

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by MALsPa » Mon May 04, 2009 11:15 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:Why?
Because religion and politics should have no place in these forums.

FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1284
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by FedoraRefugee » Mon May 04, 2009 11:19 am

MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Why?
Because religion and politics should have no place in these forums.
Point conceded! I agree. Thank you. :D

User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4126
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by clem » Mon May 04, 2009 11:32 am

It really is pretty amazing that most, if not all, of the Israelis and Jews that commented were gracious and even understanding. Just a little food for thought.
A little precision about this. You read about 400 comments, I probably received around 800... a huge part of them were moderated so that's why most people who commented on the blog (well, whose comments appeared on the blog) were respectful, "gracious" and "understanding". I was called anti-Semitic by many (which I find absolutely ridiculous and extremely "cheap") and many others actually sent comments of anti-Semitic nature. So between the numerous factions and the various landscape out there, I did receive a lot of non-constructive content, and that's something you don't see among the comments. I let some of them be published when despite their aggressive nature they were bringing something to the debate. I eventually closed the comments section as this was simply taking all of my time.

As for me, I don't think the "Israelis and Jews" that commented were more gracious or understanding, I think they were just the same. I got very interesting feedback from various different people, whether they were in support of Israel, against it, or apolitical about it. And I also got a lot of useless comments, again, from both sides. Nationalities, religions, that doesn't matter too much in my opinion.

Clem.
Image

User avatar
dlkreations
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:40 pm
Location: Orange County, California
Contact:

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by dlkreations » Mon May 04, 2009 11:39 am

MALsPa wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:Why?
Because religion and politics should have no place in these forums.
I have to say I agree as well. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on what they deem as true religion; whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, and a multitude of others... There are always going to be disputes on this, but they have no place here, especially mixing the two together.

Now as for this thread in particular, I had a big post last night and was getting ready to hit submit when I decided it wasn't worth it. I tend to stay away from discussions concerning religion and politics, because frankly I don't care.

Clem said what he needed to say; it was something in his heart that was troubling him. Yeah he didn't need to post it on the Mint blog, he does have a personal blog for that. But he apologized for doing so, and this just needs to be let go.

I will continue using this distro, because I have absolutely fallen in love with it. I don't share his ideologies, but then again, I don't share others as well. This is just one hurdle out of many more to come, so let's not make this such a big deal.

Besides, if people want to argue and debate this, there is always the PM system.
Image
It's perfectly OK to express an opinion, but refrain from foul and stupid language
- Husse

FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1284
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: mint and personal views...

Post by FedoraRefugee » Mon May 04, 2009 11:44 am

Too true Clem. I can well imagine some of the comments you received. The only fault I found was maybe you could have elaborated a little on your blog. I do not believe It was so much your personal views that bothered people but the feeling that you were saying, "If you do not agree with me then get out!" After I had read some of the comments you posted back in your blog I came to understand this was not what you were saying. I just wish you had doubled the length of your blog post and explained more your reasoning and purpose. I might not have agreed but at least I would have known why! And I would not have felt like your distro was being used as a political tool.

Anyway, enough IS enough and I will post no further in this thread. I continue to use and enjoy Mint and I greatly respect you for what you have created. I am grateful.

Locked

Return to “Chat about Linux Mint”