LM 19 Slow Boot Time due Update.

[michael louwe]

The update of LM 19 from the default Linux kernel 4.15.20 to 4.15.24 caused the slow boot time. ...
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272263 (Re: Linux Mint 19 is booting for a very long time - 4 July 2018)

Because Timeshift comes preinstalled, LM 19 defaults to applying ALL updates when install-updates is selected, resulting in the problem as above. This kind of problems will stump many Newbies and will likely recur in the future.
....... Furthermore, most Newbies would not know how to do a Timeshift Restore/Recovery or revert to an older kernel and delete the buggy kernel.

In comparison, LM 18.x and LM 17.x defaults to only applying Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected, ie not the dangerous Level 4 & 5 updates.

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x, I would immediately manually change the Update Manager setting to only install Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected. Thereafter, I would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them.
....... "Back to the Future".

[Pjotr]

It's what I do in Mint 19: all level 1-3 updates both visible and preselected, all level 4 updates (kernels and security updates included) only visible. Level 5 has ceased to exist. See:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/20

[michael louwe]

.

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It says a lot when a tech-geek like yourself do not adopt LM 19's default setting for Update Manager.

Like they say, "Prevention is better than cure". Most non-Newbies do not like the trouble of curing a system that has been borked by a buggy update, if preventable.
....... Imagine the backlash from users if Linux Mint also follows M$/Win 10's forced auto-updates.

[catweazel]

The update of LM 19 from the default Linux kernel 4.15.20 to 4.15.24 caused the slow boot time. ...
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272263 (Re: Linux Mint 19 is booting for a very long time - 4 July 2018)

Because Timeshift comes preinstalled, LM 19 defaults to applying ALL updates when install-updates is selected, resulting in the problem as above. This kind of problems will stump many Newbies and will likely recur in the future.
....... Furthermore, most Newbies would not know how to do a Timeshift Restore/Recovery or revert to an older kernel and delete the buggy kernel.

In comparison, LM 18.x and LM 17.x defaults to only applying Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected, ie not the dangerous Level 4 & 5 updates.

Fair enough.

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x, I would immediately manually change the Update Manager setting to only install Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected. Thereafter, I would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them.
....... "Back to the Future".

You just blew your own argument to smithereens. First you say that "most Newbies would not know how to do a Timeshift Restore/Recovery", then you say that you "would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them."

What inexperienced newcomer would know to do that? You must have the knowledge and the experience to have the awareness required to do what you suggest. KABOOM!

[michael louwe]

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x, I would immediately manually change the Update Manager setting to only install Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected. Thereafter, I would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them.
....... "Back to the Future".

You just blew your own argument to smithereens. First you say that "most Newbies would not know how to do a Timeshift Restore/Recovery", then you say that you "would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them."

What inexperienced newcomer would know to do that? You must have the knowledge and the experience to have the awareness required to do what you suggest. KABOOM!

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x,...

KABOOM! KABOOM!

[gm10]

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x, I would immediately manually change the Update Manager setting to only install Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected. Thereafter, I would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them.
....... "Back to the Future".

You should actually check all levels carefully. Not everything that should be at level 4 actually is. For example, things like shim and grub2 signed packages, initramfs stuff, etc. are just default level 2 whereas they can potentially leave your system unbootable.

Moreover, this particular case is special, you would have had to check the source code and follow the mainline kernel mailing list or debian bug tracker to actually notice this bug. The problem is that Canonical f'ed up big time by releasing a kernel patch that was already known to be bad by the time they released it. At least they pulled it quickly and a fix should be coming shortly (bionic-proposed is on -26 already). Hopefully they learned from it and will be more careful in the future, these are LTS kernels they are releasing after all, i.e. users want stable systems.

I still agree with Mint 19's update policy though. The above is way over the head of a newbie user or anyone who just wants carefree use of their computer. Knowing how to restore from timeshift (which I fully agree should be communicated much better) is the price to pay for that.

[catweazel]

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x, I would immediately manually change the Update Manager setting to only install Level 1 to 3 updates when install-updates is selected. Thereafter, I would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them.
....... "Back to the Future".

You just blew your own argument to smithereens. First you say that "most Newbies would not know how to do a Timeshift Restore/Recovery", then you say that you "would wait and carefully peruse each Level 4 & 5 updates before installing them."

What inexperienced newcomer would know to do that? You must have the knowledge and the experience to have the awareness required to do what you suggest. KABOOM!

Personally, as a non-Newbie, if I were to install LM 19.x,...

KABOOM! KABOOM!

Hm. Secondary explosions.

[Pjotr]

The level system of mintUpdate has its limitations, one of them indeed being that more packages should be marked as level 4. But even though imperfect, it's still a fine tool that has its use.

It helps me, as experienced user, to *prevent* problems instead of curing them. And it's an enormous help for me as sysadmin for several inexperienced users: on their machines I've disabled level 4 entirely (security updates and kernel updates included). Those I update whenever I drop by for a cup of coffee. No more help calls at inconvenient times; users happy, I happy.

[gm10]

It helps me, as experienced user, to *prevent* problems instead of curing them. And it's an enormous help for me as sysadmin for several inexperienced users: on their machines I've disabled level 4 entirely (security updates and kernel updates included). Those I update whenever I drop by for a cup of coffee. No more help calls at inconvenient times; users happy, I happy.

Be aware that it's bugged though. If I had auto-updates configured I'd catch a kernel update despite having level 4 de-selected (this is how it comes up, I did not manually select the top one):

[Pjotr]

Well, kernels and security updates get a different treatment in the Options tab: did you look into that as well? See:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... ara-22.png

Furthermore, I loathe automatic updates. They might disturb me in my work. I only update consciously, at a time of *my* convenience.

[gm10]

Well, kernels and security updates get a different treatment in the Options tab: did you look into that as well? See:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... ara-22.png

Furthermore, I loathe automatic updates. They might disturb me in my work. I only update consciously, at a time of *my* convenience.

You caught it. A new user that just gets told to limit the levels won't. That was my point.

Also it's clearly nonsensical design. Nobody needs a "always apply kernel updates" checkbox, and in particular not one that only applies the binaries but not the headers, which may cause drivers to fail to compile. I'll keep calling it a bug.

[Pjotr]

Well, kernels and security updates get a different treatment in the Options tab: did you look into that as well? See:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... ara-22.png

Furthermore, I loathe automatic updates. They might disturb me in my work. I only update consciously, at a time of *my* convenience.

You caught it. A new user that just gets told to limit the levels won't. That was my point.

Also it's clearly nonsensical design. Nobody needs a "always apply kernel updates" checkbox, and in particular not one that only applies the binaries but not the headers, which may cause drivers to fail to compile. I'll keep calling it a bug.

Well, on the headers issue you're right. That should be fixed...

But as to treating kernels and security updates as different categories: I think that's a good idea, allowing for even more fine-grained control. Ideal both for advanced users and for system administrators.

I love the level system of mintUpdate; I consider it as one of the crown jewels of Mint. Unfortunately you have to dig around a bit for it nowadays, but thank God it's still in place.

[gm10]

But as to treating kernels and security updates as different categories: I think that's a good idea, allowing for even more fine-grained control. Ideal both for advanced users and for system administrators.

Oh no don't misunderstand me, I am certainly NOT suggesting to mix the kernel updates in with the security updates (even though kernel updates typically contain security updates).

My point is that I see no use case for having that kernel checkbox in the first place. Find me one user who'd want to have kernel updates always selected but not level 4. It just makes no sense to me. Kernel updates are the potentially most dangerous updates out there, if you're ok with those always going in, you're ok with everything. So that checkbox simply isn't needed. And with it overriding the level system it's potentially dangerous to some users because that part is not communicated on either of the tabs, the only info about dangerous updates is on the levels tab so that's the only part where a new user will look.

I guess it's less relevant with the Mint 19 default strategy of backup & update all.

[Pjotr]

My point is that I see no use case for having that kernel checkbox in the first place. Find me one user who'd want to have kernel updates always selected but not level 4. It just makes no sense to me. Kernel updates are the potentially most dangerous updates out there, if you're ok with those always going in, you're ok with everything. So that checkbox simply isn't needed.

It's the other way around: the kernel checkbox allows you to *enable* all level 4 updates, *with the exception of* kernel updates.

What's perhaps confusing for you is, that *all* check boxes (including the kernel check boxes) are currently checked by default in mintUpdate in Mint 19. That used to be different; in older versions of mintUpdate, kernel updates were never enabled by default. Up to 2016 even. Then with Mint 18.x came the system of update policies, in which kernel updates were only enabled in the most aggressive update policy.

[gm10]

It's the other way around: the kernel checkbox allows you to *enable* all level 4 updates, *with the exception of* kernel updates.

Heh, so it overrides level 4 both ways? As in, not checking "always select" actually means "never select"? Then it's really badly named. I wouldn't have a problem with the checkbox if it only worked one way, and only in the "never" direction, and was placed on the levels tab.

I didn't actually know, because I never had level 4 pre-selected (yes, I know how it used to be, I've used Mint for a while).

[michael louwe]

A Newbie(= kblexel) nearly gave up on LM 19 and went back to Win 10 because of this problem caused by LM 19's default update settings. ... viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272252#p1491782

[gm10]

A Newbie(= kblexel) nearly gave up on LM 19 and went back to Win 10 because of this problem caused by LM 19's default update settings. ... viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272252#p1491782

But he didn't and was very happy.

This kernel was a disaster for some users, no doubt, but luckily that doesn't happen all that often. Also the default setting is to nag about timeshift, so a simple timeshift restore would have put him back in business as well.

[DAMIEN1307]

The 4.15.24 kernel is a total disaster...though i did not experience the major problems that were reported here, i did experience problems with my wireless logitech keyboard and mouse while using that kernel...they both just after a short while would stop responding...wouldnt work until a reboot and then stop responding again in short order...i at first thought, ok, maybe i need to replace the batteries in both the keyboard and mouse...nope...still the same problem...then i read this post about the "24" kernel problems that other people were having which were much more serious problems than my own...i then decide to go to grub during reboot to regress to the "23" kernel that was installed as my backup...well...that didnt work out well either...when i rebooted everything was wanky, so i went to the update manager to look at installed kernels and it reported that there were no kernels installed at all which i knew was not true to begin with because i purposely checked that there were 2 backup kernels installed before rebooting to grub to regress the kernel...so again i rebooted system with my ISO USB to regain kernel installation, etc. hoping i would not have to re-install my OS...that worked thank God and im back up and running perfectly again...im a true believer in updating kernels running in the same LTS series, but this left a very bitter taste in the mouth to me...how this "24" kernel ever got into the update manager to begin with is beyond words how it ever got beyond the "proof readers" to ever make it into the update manager as an "approved" kernel update...someone was definitely asleep at the switch on this one...i know full well that sometimes, updates to anything can go pear shaped but kernels, especially updated kernels within the same series using the built in mint update manager, well this just shouldnt be happening without being properly vetted before being released...(it never did effect my boot time on my HDD...its still at 14 seconds)...and my keyboard and mouse are now working perfectly again...DAMIEN

[Len99]

A Newbie(= kblexel) nearly gave up on LM 19 and went back to Win 10 because of this problem caused by LM 19's default update settings. ... viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272252#p1491782

I have been using mint for about a year or so and still class myself as a newbie in the sense that I am too old to learn to use the terminal stuff for anything other than copy and paste from helpful hints etc, and trouble shooting is not my forte' either, prefer to use an image to fix problems now since its discovery this week..... but Linux Mint 18 got me out of windows 10 for the rest of my life!! and I have tried most flavours of Linux now and think L.Mint Cinnamon is the best enviroment..... LM18 then 19 beta which ran flawlessly that eventually I changed to LM19 Mate, but I had that many problems with going to the full LM19 release from those earleer ones that I have lost faith in this release and I have turned off all updates, now I am looking at changing to another distro all together if I can just find one that suits as well as LM did........