Why So Many Bad Kernels - Compatibility problems between Nvidia driver & kernel

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gm10
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by gm10 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 am

catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 am
I just love false dichotomies :)
I could have put more effort into that one, I know. :)

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:48 am

gm10 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 am
catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 am
I just love false dichotomies :)
I could have put more effort into that one, I know. :)
Oh, not you. @mediclaser ;->
¡uʍop ǝpısdn sı buıɥʇʎɹǝʌǝ os ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ ɯoɹɟ ɯ,ı

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:05 am

Telling from Bob's inxi report above, Bob is one of those users, who upgraded their Linux Mint 18.3 to kernel series 4.15.0.

If my memory serves me right (of course it does), there have been quite a few complaints about various serious problems by users of Mint 18.x, who had upraded to kernel series 4.15.0.

If I pay a visit to the instruction in the official Ubuntu wiki on how to switch to kernel series 4.15.0 on Ubuntu 16.04, this is what I read:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install --install-recommends linux-generic-hwe-16.04 xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04
I.e. you will not only install kernel K4.15.0-xx; but you will also install the corresponding xserver-xorg software. (In the past the Ubuntu guys called this "the kernel and its hardware enablement stack".)

I wonder a bit whether Mint Update Manager might ignore this second part, the HWE, the hardware enablement stack.
If it does, then this might perhaps be a hint why there are quite a few users, whose DE's started causing problems, after switching to kernel series 4.15.0 on Mint 18.x.
If it does, then the suspected bad kernels might really be incomptibilities between newer kernel series and the HWE, which had been designed for kernel series 4.4.0.
Just wondering ...
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JeremyB
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by JeremyB » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:48 am

karlchen, it is very likely that the Nvidia dkms module that Bob is using isn't updated to work with the 4.15 kernel in the xenial repos. The changelog shows no sign of a 4.15 patch for nvidia-340 http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs ... /changelog

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by gm10 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:15 am

karlchen wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:05 am
If I pay a visit to the instruction in the official Ubuntu wiki on how to switch to kernel series 4.15.0 on Ubuntu 16.04, this is what I read:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install --install-recommends linux-generic-hwe-16.04 xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04
I.e. you will not only install kernel K4.15.0-xx; but you will also install the corresponding xserver-xorg software. (In the past the Ubuntu guys called this "the kernel and its hardware enablement stack".)

I wonder a bit whether Mint Update Manager might ignore this second part, the HWE, the hardware enablement stack.
There is no "might" here. Of course Update Manager ignores this. Update Manager just grabs whatever newest kernel image version it can find, ignoring meta packages. That is why we had the 4.15.0-24 troubles, because while Ubuntu revoked it, Update Manager just doesn't care. ;)

If you want to switch over to the HWE meta packages and not just the kernel you'll still have to run that command. Once you did that, Update Manager will then keep those packages up to date in the future.
Last edited by gm10 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:17 am

Hi, JeremyB.

This might explain Bob's problems. Indeed. In case nvidia-340 is not supported by kernel series 4.15.0, then every kernel 4.15.0-xx will look "bad" to Bob.
Glad I have switched to nouveau completely. :)

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by bob466 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:22 am

DAMIEN1307,

According to Driver Manager I'm running the latest driver...nvidia-340.104-oubuntu 0.16.04.1

As for Microcode...
$bob@bob-B85M-D3H ~ $ dpkg -l | grep microcode
ii intel-microcode 3.20180425.1~ubuntu0.16.04.2 amd64 Processor microcode firmware for Intel CPUs
ii iucode-tool 1.5.1-1ubuntu0.1 amd64 Intel processor microcode tool
ii microcode.ctl 1.18~0+nmu2 amd64 Intel IA32/IA64 CPU Microcode Utility (transitional package)
bob@bob-B85M-D3H ~ $
Plus...
bob@bob-B85M-D3H ~ $ grep 'microcode' /proc/cpuinfo
microcode : 0x24
microcode : 0x24
microcode : 0x24
microcode : 0x24
bob@bob-B85M-D3H ~ $

I only just updated the Microcode recently after doing a clean install of Cinnamon 18.3 and of cause everything else too.
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karlchen
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 am

gm10 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:15 am
If you want to switch over to the HWE meta packages and not just the kernel you'll still have to run that command. Once you did that, Update Manager will then keep those packages up to date in the future.
Last time when I had to switch to a newer kernel series on Mint, because my hardware was too new for the default kernel series, that was on Mint 13. And I know that I used this commandline to switch the kernel series:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install --install-recommends linux-generic-lts-trusty xserver-xorg-lts-trusty libgl1-mesa-glx-lts-trusty
(I know, because this was when I bookmarked the LTSEnablementStack Wiki page.)
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:28 am

bob466 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:22 am
According to Driver Manager I'm running the latest driver...nvidia-340.104-oubuntu 0.16.04.1
But, Bob, your problem is not the microcode. Your problem is, as JeremyB had pointed out, that kernel 4.15.0-xx does no longer support Nvidia driver nvidia-340.
So, either you find a newer Nvidia driver, which is supported by kernel 4.15.0-xx and which can be used on Mint 18.3, or you switch from Nvidia to nouveau.
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by gm10 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:29 am

karlchen wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:25 am
(I know, because this was when I bookmarked the LTSEnablementStack Wiki page.)
It's how Ubuntu's LTS model works. They guarantee you 5 years on the original LTS. The point releases aka HWE upgrades are optional, so they have to use separate meta packages for those. If you never install them, you stay on the original release branch. Mint's Update Manager letting you install kernels separately is not part of that equation.

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by uberdorf » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:40 am

4.13 has reached end of life and will no longer get security updates, so the choices to get updates like for Meltdown and Spectre are 4.4 and 4.15.
https://www.ubuntu.com/info/release-end-of-life

NVIDIA 390 does not support OP's GT 210 graphics card. He is stuck with the legacy 340 driver while using the GT 210.
https://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_32667.html

So the options as I see it are...
1. Use nouveau instead of the proprietary graphics on 4.15 kernel.
2. Use NVIDIA 340 with 4.4 kernel.
3. Get a more recent video card that is supported by 390 and 4.15.

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by JeremyB » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:46 am

uberdorf wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:40 am
4.13 has reached end of life and will no longer get security updates, so the choices to get updates like for Meltdown and Spectre are 4.4 and 4.15.
https://www.ubuntu.com/info/release-end-of-life

NVIDIA 390 does not support OP's GT 210 graphics card. He is stuck with the legacy 340 driver while using the GT 210.
https://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_32667.html

So the options as I see it are...
1. Use nouveau instead of the proprietary graphics on 4.15 kernel.
2. Use NVIDIA 340 with 4.4 kernel.
3. Get a more recent video card that is supported by 390 and 4.15.
You missed an option, install Mint 19 and have an updated Nvidia dkms module that supports the 4.15 kernel

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:53 am

Hm. As I understand the old NVidia card will not like the new Nvidia driver nvidia-390, used on Mint 19.
uberdorf wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:40 am
NVIDIA 390 does not support OP's GT 210 graphics card. He is stuck with the legacy 340 driver while using the GT 210.
This might return us to the option of switching to the "nouveau" driver, provided the nouveau driver and the GT210 get along well with each other.
~~
I seem to be lucky that my 2 Nvidia graphics cards get along with nouveau quite well, on Mint 18.1 and Ubuntu 18.04.
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by bob466 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:11 am

karlchen wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:28 am
bob466 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:22 am
According to Driver Manager I'm running the latest driver...nvidia-340.104-oubuntu 0.16.04.1
But, Bob, your problem is not the microcode. Your problem is, as JeremyB had pointed out, that kernel 4.15.0-xx does no longer support Nvidia driver nvidia-340.
So, either you find a newer Nvidia driver, which is supported by kernel 4.15.0-xx and which can be used on Mint 18.3, or you switch from Nvidia to nouveau.
I will try your suggestions and see what happens...I made the mistake of blaming Linux Mint which is easy to do out of pure frustration and not understanding why a black screen appears on a computer that's fully up to date...sorry guys...I'm still a newbie but learning.
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by mediclaser » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:52 am

catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:48 am
gm10 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 am
catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:14 am
I just love false dichotomies :)
I could have put more effort into that one, I know. :)
Oh, not you. @mediclaser ;->
Please refer to my question above. If my argument sounded like what you describe, it's probably because of my limited knowledge as a Linux beginner.

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by bob466 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:18 pm

I installed nouveau...Re-Booted then installed Kernel 4.15.0-32 and Re-Booted again...no black screen...works just fine. :oops:

Sorry Guys and especially the Mint Team...it wasn't the Kernel after all...it's bloody nvidia :x I couldn't understand why I'd get one Kernel that worked then one that didn't...anyway now I know.

I'll be sticking with nouveau as I wont be fooled twice...I also installed the Brightness Applet which helps too. Apart from Firefox I have Google Chrome and Opera...Liveleak never worked on Opera...now it does...seems nvidia was responsible for that too. :x

Mods...please feel free to delete this Thread because I'm wrongly accusing Mint...when it is now clearly not the case. :D
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by karlchen » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:48 am

Hi, Bob.

I am glad to learn that switching from the proprietary nvidia-340 driver to the nouveau driver really solved your problem. :D
I think other users, who experience a similar situation, might find this thread useful.
So I do not see any reason to delete anything.

It really is a tricky situation:
Your machine has got an old NVidia card. You use the proprietary nvidia-340 driver. Up to kernel series 4.13.0-xx, kernel and driver get along.
The next kernel series K4.15.0-xx, however, does require nvidia-390 or higher.
But nvidia-390 no longer supports your old NVidia card.
Which user can be expected to understand this plight and not to blame the kernel?

Regards,
Karl
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels - Compatibility problems between Nvidia driver & kernel

Post by Pjotr » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:06 am

Well, on my machine with exactly the same graphics card, the nvidia-340 driver works fine on the 4.15.x kernel....

Video card and driver:

Code: Select all

pjotr@MS-7740:~$ inxi -G
Graphics:
  Card-1: NVIDIA GT218 [GeForce 210] driver: nvidia v: 340.106 
  Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.19.6 driver: nvidia 
  unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,nouveau,vesa resolution: 1920x1080~60Hz 
  OpenGL: renderer: GeForce 210/PCIe/SSE2 v: 3.3.0 NVIDIA 340.106
Kernel and Mint version:

Code: Select all

pjotr@MS-7740:~$ inxi -S
System:
  Host: MS-7740 Kernel: 4.15.0-32-generic x86_64 bits: 64 
  Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.8 Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara
One relevant difference between the OP's machine and mine, might be that he's still running 18.3 Sylvia, while mine is a clean installation of 19 Tara.
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19 Tara
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
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All in all, horse sense simply makes sense.

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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels - Compatibility problems between Nvidia driver & kernel

Post by bob466 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:32 pm

Now comes the strange part...

Two weeks ago I installed Cinnamon 19 on my spare HDD...when I tried to install Wine from WineHQ in the Terminal I couldn't...kept getting errors and it's not in the Software Manager which didn't work either. :(

So I deleted it and did a clean install of Cinnamon 18.3...what happened after we all know. Yesterday I downloaded a fresh copy of Cinnamon 19 and installed it on my spare HDD. After the install I ran the Driver Manager...nvidia 340.106 comes up...this doesn't appear in 18.3.

So I installed it and Re-Booted...then installed all Updates and Re-Booted again...I'm now running my Graphics Card with 304.106 and Kernel 4.15.0-32 with no problems. :o Went to WineHQ and installed Wine 3.0.2 without any drama...installed some software from Software Manager as well.

Then I installed VirtualBox Bionic AMD64 and imported my Win7 VM and it works just fine...I think I'll book myself into the Loony Bin after this. :roll: Anyway I'll be sticking with 18.3 for now...unless I get more nvidia/Kernel problems...I can't wait till the next Kernel update. :D
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Re: Why So Many Bad Kernels.

Post by puddleglum » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:59 am

karlchen wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:05 am
Telling from Bob's inxi report above, Bob is one of those users, who upgraded their Linux Mint 18.3 to kernel series 4.15.0.

If my memory serves me right (of course it does), there have been quite a few complaints about various serious problems by users of Mint 18.x, who had upraded to kernel series 4.15.0.

If I pay a visit to the instruction in the official Ubuntu wiki on how to switch to kernel series 4.15.0 on Ubuntu 16.04, this is what I read:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install --install-recommends linux-generic-hwe-16.04 xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04
I.e. you will not only install kernel K4.15.0-xx; but you will also install the corresponding xserver-xorg software. (In the past the Ubuntu guys called this "the kernel and its hardware enablement stack".)
Interesting that Ubuntu doesn't tell you how to go back. Since Linux Mint 18.3 is already on the 4.15.0 kernel series, that command doesn't help us downgrade to the 4.4 kernel series. Sure, you can manually install the latest 4.4 kernel but you are still going to be getting update notices for 4.15. Anybody have any ideas on how to properly downgrade Linux Mint 18.3 to the 4.4 series?

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