After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

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cecilieaux
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After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by cecilieaux » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm

I like what's new and shiny and, natch, went and tried out Tara Cinnamon in my non-production computer, a laptop. Linux Mint developers, please ... keep in mind those of us who are in extended user newbiedom.

ITEM 1

The idea of marrying Software Update to Timeshift is unquestionably a technical improvement that allows developers to experiment without killing users. But ... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software, especially for idiots like me who still cannot figure out the parameters on rsync after much trying. Someone named AZgl1500 suggested LuckyBackup and -- yeah ...!!! -- there's a software with options in ordinary English!

Moreover, because I have a 100 GB system partition (who woulda thunk that would not be enough for forever?), I cannot backup more than one Timeshift version at a time; not enough space left on that partition.

So now Update doesn't worry about regressions, which I have never experienced (knock on wood!), nor about software gorgons and trolls ... because we can always spend a quarter of each day figuring out Timeshift. Lovely! (I *liked* just not touching the 4s and 5s.)

ITEM 2

Flatpak ... really? What is the point of the safety of repositories and their efficient use of data space? Let's go for Windowsizing, with all its risks and bloat.

ITEM 3

The new Cinnamon is NOT snappier and faster in the same machine that ran Sylvia. There's also a diminution of lighter colored themes with icon sets that are not flat. No gain.

In sum, I love Linux Mint and want to stay and am grateful for the developers' past insistence on making sure things actually work before experimenting. (I would have remained in Ubuntu for the hand-holding but then they had to go all Unity on us and return to an abominable implementation of Gnome.) Not trying Arch any time in this life. However, I'm leaning toward reverting on my laptop to Sylvia (although I stupidly deleted the Timeshift backup of the system), even though I'm not running into any of the bugs warned about in the site.

I'm definitely keeping 18.3 for my desktop, although I may refresh it with fresh install to clean out some of the crud. I *really* liked the bundle of (much needed) software updates Sylvia got recently.
Every time I think I'm past newbiedom something like this happens.
Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia 64-bit

ajgringo619
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by ajgringo619 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:56 pm

cecilieaux wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm
I like what's new and shiny and, natch, went and tried out Tara Cinnamon in my non-production computer, a laptop. Linux Mint developers, please ... keep in mind those of us who are in extended user newbiedom.

ITEM 1

The idea of marrying Software Update to Timeshift is unquestionably a technical improvement that allows developers to experiment without killing users. But ... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software, especially for idiots like me who still cannot figure out the parameters on rsync after much trying. Someone named AZgl1500 suggested LuckyBackup and -- yeah ...!!! -- there's a software with options in ordinary English!

Moreover, because I have a 100 GB system partition (who woulda thunk that would not be enough for forever?), I cannot backup more than one Timeshift version at a time; not enough space left on that partition.

So now Update doesn't worry about regressions, which I have never experienced (knock on wood!), nor about software gorgons and trolls ... because we can always spend a quarter of each day figuring out Timeshift. Lovely! (I *liked* just not touching the 4s and 5s.)
Sounds like you're using Timeshift as a data backup program; that's NOT what's it's designed for. I have 6 snapshots on my system and I'm only using about 10GB (and that includes a large Flatpak presence).
ITEM 2

Flatpak ... really? What is the point of the safety of repositories and their efficient use of data space? Let's go for Windowsizing, with all its risks and bloat.
Hmmmm...did you know that Flatpak was installed by default on Mint 18.3? It's a great system if you need a feature that the older Ubuntu repos don't offer - Okular and Gimp come to mind - or if you just want to play around with the latest-and-greatest. Yes, Flatpaks need more space (due to installing sandboxed libraries that Mint most likely already has) but they don't touch the main system files. Bloat? Maybe. Risk? I don't see it.
ITEM 3
In sum, I love Linux Mint and want to stay and am grateful for the developers' past insistence on making sure things actually work before experimenting. (I would have remained in Ubuntu for the hand-holding but then they had to go all Unity on us and return to an abominable implementation of Gnome.) Not trying Arch any time in this life. However, I'm leaning toward reverting on my laptop to Sylvia (although I stupidly deleted the Timeshift backup of the system), even though I'm not running into any of the bugs warned about in the site.

I'm definitely keeping 18.3 for my desktop, although I may refresh it with fresh install to clean out some of the crud. I *really* liked the bundle of (much needed) software updates Sylvia got recently.
You know, you don't have to opt in to every update that gets pushed out, right? One of the first things I turned off after installing Mint 19 XFCE was the automatic kernel updates. You have to expect for bugs/updates with a x.0 release; I would expect the 19.1 release to be more more stable ("stable" meaning less bug fixes).
[Mint 19 XFCE, AMD FX-8350 Eight-Core w/16 GB RAM, 4.15.0-39-generic, GeForce GTX 960 w/Nvidia 410.73]
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cecilieaux
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by cecilieaux » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:31 am

ajgringo619 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:56 pm
You know, you don't have to opt in to every update that gets pushed out, right? One of the first things I turned off after installing Mint 19 XFCE was the automatic kernel updates. You have to expect for bugs/updates with a x.0 release; I would expect the 19.1 release to be more more stable ("stable" meaning less bug fixes).
Yes, thank you for your valuable response. Maybe I need to learn how Timeshift works more precisely. I got a 25GB backup that was only the system insofar as I could tell.

Cecilieaux
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Hoser Rob
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by Hoser Rob » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:41 am

cecilieaux wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm
...The idea of marrying Software Update to Timeshift is unquestionably a technical improvement that allows developers to experiment without killing users. But ... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software...
Haven't actually installed 19, just played a bit on USB stick boot. I don't disagree there.
Flatpak ... really? What is the point of the safety of repositories and their efficient use of data space? Let's go for Windowsizing, with all its risks and bloat.
The point of flatpak/snap etc is to try and solve one of the biggest problems with fragmentation in Linux. There are far too many distros and package managelent systems and a lack of stable APIs. And the FOSS dev community is quite understaffed in general. This, for all it's probloems with efficiency ... you're basically including a Linux runtime environment with the app ... is a step in the right direction. But not as good a step as stable APIs would be of course.
The new Cinnamon is NOT snappier and faster in the same machine that ran Sylvia. ...
You should never expect the DE on a new Linuix release to be faster than the old one. It happens but not all that often. Of course it may have been something that needed to be configured differently but really, you shouldn't expect more speed.

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JerryF
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by JerryF » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:21 am

cecilieaux wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm
... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software...
Timeshift is not designed to be a backup software in the conventional sense. It is more like the System Restore of Windows. That's why in it's default settings, the Home directory is excluded.

I'm not sure why you say it's not an easy piece of software. The wizard starts at which type of snapshot you want. If you have read the Help on that page, and recommendations from this forum, you'll pick RSYNC.

Then the wizards asks where you want to store the snapshots. If you created a separate home partition, choose the sdax partition that's your home partition, if you didn't, it'll be one partition to choose.

Then you choose how often you want snapshots.

Then it lets you change the default setting if you want to include your home directories. Most users leave this as is.

Done.
IF your problem has been solved, please edit your original post and add [SOLVED] to the beginning of the Subject Line. It helps other members.

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smurphos
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by smurphos » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:02 am

You don't have to use timeshift if you don't want to. After install just open Update Manager > Edit > Preferences and uncheck the 'Show a warning if system snapshots are not set up'

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Want to set up the level protection system from Mint 18.x?

Open Update Manager > Edit > Preferences - make an informed decision about whether to always show and/or select security and kernel updates before navigating to the levels tab and unchecking the defaults as required.

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Go to View > Visible Columns and check Levels.

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Flatpak ultimately is just another repository with another packaging format. The repository is flathub - it's human curated. Nothing to fear. No-one is forcing any individual user to install a flatpak.

Cinnamon performance - did you mention you were testing from a Live session? That's not a surprise then - live sessions are always going to run slower than an installed system. How much better Cinnamon 3.8.x is than Cinnamon 3.6.x is will vary depending on hardware. It's was definitely a little better on mine when I first installed. I've subsequently installed again onto an SSD and I have to say my system flies (2012 era gen2 intel with 6GB RAM).

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AZgl1500
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by AZgl1500 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:49 am

cecilieaux wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm


ITEM 1

The idea of marrying Software Update to Timeshift is unquestionably a technical improvement that allows developers to experiment without killing users. But ... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software, especially for idiots like me who still cannot figure out the parameters on rsync after much trying. Someone named AZgl1500 suggested LuckyBackup and -- yeah ...!!! -- there's a software with options in ordinary English!

Moreover, because I have a 100 GB system partition (who woulda thunk that would not be enough for forever?), I cannot backup more than one Timeshift version at a time; not enough space left on that partition.
Maybe I misconstrued what you are saying here, but Timeshift Backup Files should never be stored inside the partition source AND, do NOT try to use Timeshift to backup /home, that is a huge mistake....

they must be, stored on a separate partition, or extHDD.... once the initial backup is created, all of the following updates take very little space at all. Here is a pix of the Timeshift backup for my system. it is 5.9gB and has stayed that way almost from the start. Timeshift only backs up my OS, and I use LuckyBackup for /home...

Note that all of my backup folders live in a Separate Partition away from my OS's partition.

Also, I use Timeshift with the settings it came with, the only changes I make are in the Scheduling.


TimeshiftSpace.png

cecilieaux
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by cecilieaux » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 am

Thank you to Smurphos and AZgl1500. I will check out your suggestions. I haven't reverted to 18.3 on the laptop.

As to flatpak, maybe I ought to try it. This is a useful discussion.
Every time I think I'm past newbiedom something like this happens.
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ajgringo619
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by ajgringo619 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:53 pm

AZgl1500 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:49 am
cecilieaux wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 pm


ITEM 1

The idea of marrying Software Update to Timeshift is unquestionably a technical improvement that allows developers to experiment without killing users. But ... Timeshift is not an easy piece of backup software, especially for idiots like me who still cannot figure out the parameters on rsync after much trying. Someone named AZgl1500 suggested LuckyBackup and -- yeah ...!!! -- there's a software with options in ordinary English!

Moreover, because I have a 100 GB system partition (who woulda thunk that would not be enough for forever?), I cannot backup more than one Timeshift version at a time; not enough space left on that partition.
Maybe I misconstrued what you are saying here, but Timeshift Backup Files should never be stored inside the partition source AND, do NOT try to use Timeshift to backup /home, that is a huge mistake....

they must be, stored on a separate partition, or extHDD.... once the initial backup is created, all of the following updates take very little space at all. Here is a pix of the Timeshift backup for my system. it is 5.9gB and has stayed that way almost from the start. Timeshift only backs up my OS, and I use LuckyBackup for /home...

Note that all of my backup folders live in a Separate Partition away from my OS's partition.

Also, I use Timeshift with the settings it came with, the only changes I make are in the Scheduling.
FYI - if you use BTRFS (as I am) the snapshots MUST be saved on the same partition. It's super fast - I hardly notice when it runs - but it obviously has its risks.
[Mint 19 XFCE, AMD FX-8350 Eight-Core w/16 GB RAM, 4.15.0-39-generic, GeForce GTX 960 w/Nvidia 410.73]
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by Rtep » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:37 pm

Do research on ACRONIS HOME IMAGE software.. I'm using this application for backup and restore for decade. No problem at all. Trick is DO NOT use it for anything else then FULL partition (with OS on it) backup and restore. It took me 10 min max to perform full backup and about the same time to do restore. It is beyond logic why Linux basically adapted Windows "restore point" backup and restore. This is my explanation: When system is making those restore points it is doing it without knowing if something is broken, corrupted, infected....so next time you use that "restore points" you are returning your computer to that no good point! Before I start making backup with Acronis, I perform anti virus scan, I'm updating system...make myself sure everything is top notch. So, when I use THAT backup I know it will work! Period. That's why I abandoned that Windows "restore points" system. Acronis is working on Windows AND on Linux. It is not free, but it is worth EVERY PENNY you spend. You can "burn" "Acronis rescue media" on USB stick from that installation and you'll be able to do restore and backup when you boot to that USB. YES, you can use that bootable USB stick on ANY computer you have! It is fast and just a few click operation. During backup process you can choose level of compression, place where you want to place that backup and name of that backup.Full backup using HIGH compression made from LM 18.3 Sylvia MATE is about 9GB ! You do not have to install Acronis to every computer. Just instal it once on Windows computer, make bootable USB stick and use it on every Windows or Linux computer withour any limitation. Then if you want, you can uninstall Acronis, but use only that bootable USB media. Sorry for my my broken English.

ajgringo619
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Re: After trying Tara ... pleas for the developers

Post by ajgringo619 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:58 pm

Rtep wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:37 pm
Do research on ACRONIS HOME IMAGE software.. I'm using this application for backup and restore for decade. No problem at all. Trick is DO NOT use it for anything else then FULL partition (with OS on it) backup and restore. It took me 10 min max to perform full backup and about the same time to do restore. It is beyond logic why Linux basically adapted Windows "restore point" backup and restore. This is my explanation: When system is making those restore points it is doing it without knowing if something is broken, corrupted, infected....so next time you use that "restore points" you are returning your computer to that no good point! Before I start making backup with Acronis, I perform anti virus scan, I'm updating system...make myself sure everything is top notch. So, when I use THAT backup I know it will work! Period. That's why I abandoned that Windows "restore points" system. Acronis is working on Windows AND on Linux. It is not free, but it is worth EVERY PENNY you spend. You can "burn" "Acronis rescue media" on USB stick from that installation and you'll be able to do restore and backup when you boot to that USB. YES, you can use that bootable USB stick on ANY computer you have! It is fast and just a few click operation. During backup process you can choose level of compression, place where you want to place that backup and name of that backup.Full backup using HIGH compression made from LM 18.3 Sylvia MATE is about 9GB ! You do not have to install Acronis to every computer. Just instal it once on Windows computer, make bootable USB stick and use it on every Windows or Linux computer withour any limitation. Then if you want, you can uninstall Acronis, but use only that bootable USB media. Sorry for my my broken English.
I use Clonezilla for my full system backups, Timeshift for system snapshots (/ only), and Backintime for daily backups (/home).

Your comparison of Acronis to Timeshift is misguided, 2 totally different disaster recovery systems. You say that you perform updates BEFORE making a backup - doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a restorable point if something breaks? Remember this: no backup system checks to see if everything's "working" before it runs; that would be an impossible task. Even though Windows restore points are super slow and the overall implementation is horrible, they have the right concept - give the user a place to return to in case the upgrade fails. Timeshift can be used the same way, by creating manual snapshots before any software changes; you don't have to use its scheduler.

Does this "restore point" system always work? Of course not. That's why I make once-every-two-weeks full system images with Clonezilla, more often if new kernels/Nvidia drivers come out.
[Mint 19 XFCE, AMD FX-8350 Eight-Core w/16 GB RAM, 4.15.0-39-generic, GeForce GTX 960 w/Nvidia 410.73]
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