Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Chat about anything related to Linux Mint
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vonMos
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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:54 am

Hoser Rob wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:58 am
Developers are not interested in ill informed rants by rank newbies.
I stated in a post that developers really don't give a sh** about forum posts...so your opinion is pointless.
Last edited by Moem on Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No need to quote everything once more.

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by bwat47 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:57 am

The firefox issue is nothing to do with mint. Firefox simply doesn't have hardware accelerated compositing enabled by default on linux (and never has) and that's why there's tearing until you force enabled open gl layers. This would have been the same issue in mint 18.3 (or any other linux distro)

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=594876

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by Moem » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:36 am

vonMos wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:54 am
I stated in a post that developers really don't give a sh** about forum posts...so your opinion is pointless.
If that's true, isn't this whole thread even more pointless?
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by Pepi » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:45 am

Moem wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:36 am
vonMos wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:54 am
I stated in a post that developers really don't give a sh** about forum posts...so your opinion is pointless.
If that's true, isn't this whole thread even more pointless?
:mrgreen: Good point

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:34 pm

Pepi wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:45 am
Moem wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:36 am
vonMos wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:54 am
I stated in a post that developers really don't give a sh** about forum posts...so your opinion is pointless.
If that's true, isn't this whole thread even more pointless?
:mrgreen: Good point
Yep but i said that 18.3 is better than 19 on my old ultrabook. :mrgreen:

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by Moem » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:02 pm

You sure did. Feeling better?
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by JosephM » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:23 pm

I'd like to point out that Mint devs do occasionally read threads here ;) I'd also like to point out that I see zero useful info being given in this one. It sounds like a rant plain and simple. Nothing we can actually use to help improve things.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by lsemmens » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:10 pm

JosephM wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:23 pm
I'd like to point out that Mint devs do occasionally read threads here ;) I'd also like to point out that I see zero useful info being given in this one. It sounds like a rant plain and simple. Nothing we can actually use to help improve things.
Pepi wrote ⤴
Moem wrote: ⤴
Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:06 am
vonMos wrote: ⤴
Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:24 pm
I stated in a post that developers really don't give a sh** about forum posts...so your opinion is pointless.
If that's true, isn't this whole thread even more pointless?
:mrgreen: Good point
All good points! FINALLY, we are getting some GOOD Points in this somewhat pointless thread :D
Kernel: 4.15.0-36-generic x86_64 bits: 64
Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.9
Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara

Laptop T4500 Dualcore 4Gb RAM
Server AMD Phenom 9650 - GEForce 9400GT 6Gb RAM
+ three other Linux Mint machines
Out of my mind - please leave a message

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:59 am

JosephM wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:23 pm
I'd like to point out that Mint devs do occasionally read threads here ;) I'd also like to point out that I see zero useful info being given in this one. It sounds like a rant plain and simple. Nothing we can actually use to help improve things.
I can provide custom OS telemetrics but i don't want to reinstall LM 19 again for nothing... wasting my time for nothing... because 16.04.x kernels work better with my old hardware, for example check this picture ->> Rendering on Blender 3D in Linux on my machine, with the same blend file.
NOW YOU TELL ME WHO IS RIGHT?!? On 18 it renders faster but the main villain is CINNAMON I guess...but the Winner is 14.04
Google Photos ->>
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ExYG1j8CZ3VeKDe57
The OS was Lubuntu. CPU rendering. GPU rendering is pointless on Linux...
SO the BEST Linux Mint compatibility wise with my old ultrabook is 17.3 but the support time is next year so that's a sad thing that's why i am running 18.3

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:13 am

lsemmens wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:10 pm
JosephM wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:23 pm
I'd like to point out that Mint devs do occasionally read threads here ;) I'd also like to point out that I see zero useful info being given in this one. It sounds like a rant plain and simple. Nothing we can actually use to help improve things.
Pepi wrote ⤴
Moem wrote: ⤴
Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:06 am



If that's true, isn't this whole thread even more pointless?
:mrgreen: Good point
All good points! FINALLY, we are getting some GOOD Points in this somewhat pointless thread :D
LOL, wasting your life for Linux Mint Forum points =))), what an id***...

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by smurphos » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 am

You've actually posted some interesting info for the first time so well done. Shame you couldn't have spent a few minutes to actually type it out and describe your methology is a bit more detail but hey ho.

So you've identified spectre and meltdown mitigations impact your performance as do later kernels. Not a lot the Mint team can do about that...the kernels all come directly from upstream. But you can if you so wish disable specific mitigations in newer kernels via modified grub parameters. Personally I'd think that would be unwise but Ubuntu have made it possible and published guidance on their site as to how to go about it.

I don't know why you think Cinnamon it to blame. Sure it needs GPU accelerated graphics so old hardware with a weak GPU may struggle but on my hardware (2012 mid range 2nd generation Intel with Integrated Intel graphics) its perfectly fine in day to day use. Prior to upgrading to SSD boot time with 19 was maybe a minute or so, pretty much the same as on 18.x. Now it's about 20 seconds. Sure people have reported issues with long boot times on 19. Mostly we been able to help them fix them.

If you are happy with 18.3 on your hardware that's great...stick with it and save the pennies over the next few years for something a bit newer ready for when support for 18.x ends

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by Pepi » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:05 am

I'm in the same boat really. My computers all run great with 18.3 and I'm sticking with it until the end. I do realize that Mint 19 doesn't suck ... it's my old hardware that is going to suck in a few years :mrgreen:

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by gm10 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:07 am

Pepi wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:05 am
I'm in the same boat really. My computers all run great with 18.3 and I'm sticking with it until the end. I do realize that Mint 19 doesn't suck ... it's my old hardware that is going to suck in a few years :mrgreen:
Pretty much. New (versions of) operating systems and kernels aren't getting created for old hardware, they are adding new features that you can comfortably run with current hardware. Normal cycle of life.

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:44 pm

smurphos wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 am
You've actually posted some interesting info for the first time so well done. Shame you couldn't have spent a few minutes to actually type it out and describe your methology is a bit more detail but hey ho.

So you've identified spectre and meltdown mitigations impact your performance as do later kernels. Not a lot the Mint team can do about that...the kernels all come directly from upstream. But you can if you so wish disable specific mitigations in newer kernels via modified grub parameters. Personally I'd think that would be unwise but Ubuntu have made it possible and published guidance on their site as to how to go about it.

I don't know why you think Cinnamon it to blame. Sure it needs GPU accelerated graphics so old hardware with a weak GPU may struggle but on my hardware (2012 mid range 2nd generation Intel with Integrated Intel graphics) its perfectly fine in day to day use. Prior to upgrading to SSD boot time with 19 was maybe a minute or so, pretty much the same as on 18.x. Now it's about 20 seconds. Sure people have reported issues with long boot times on 19. Mostly we been able to help them fix them.

If you are happy with 18.3 on your hardware that's great...stick with it and save the pennies over the next few years for something a bit newer ready for when support for 18.x ends
Basic ISO OS from the website without any updates or security/ micro kernel patches.
And the same OS with updates and latest kernel updates& stuff.
I used a custom Blend file made by me, as i work in 3D...the same file in all tests.
Cinnamon and Intel drivers GPU for linux are the main factor. Who at Intel really writes code for old 2'nd gen or 3'rd gen like mine integrated graphics...on the other side in Windows it works like a charm..the drivers :)..but windows is slow as duck nearly 4 minutes.

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by smurphos » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:04 am

vonMos wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:44 pm
Cinnamon and Intel drivers GPU for linux are the main factor. Who at Intel really writes code for old 2'nd gen or 3'rd gen like mine integrated graphics...on the other side in Windows it works like a charm..the drivers :)..but windows is slow as duck nearly 4 minutes.
The linux kernel drivers are pretty mature now for 2nd generation intel - this is my system - with good performance on Mint 18.x and now 19. Not that I do any complex graphical work, but it's fine for video, light gaming etc and with a SSD recently installed the desktop is lightning responsive.

Code: Select all

$ inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: steve-HP-Pavilion-g6-Notebook-PC Kernel: 4.15.0-38-generic x86_64
           bits: 64 gcc: 7.3.0
           Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.9 (Gtk 3.22.30-1ubuntu1)
           Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara
Machine:   Device: laptop System: Hewlett-Packard product: HP Pavilion g6 Notebook PC v: 0690120000204710000620100 serial: N/A
           Mobo: Hewlett-Packard model: 166F v: 09.4C serial: N/A
           BIOS: Insyde v: F.66 date: 01/24/2013
Battery    BAT0: charge: 31.1 Wh 100.0% condition: 31.1/31.1 Wh (100%)
           model: Hewlett-Packard Primary status: Full
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core i5-2430M (-MT-MCP-) 
           arch: Sandy Bridge rev.7 cache: 3072 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 9578
           clock speeds: max: 3000 MHz 1: 2012 MHz 2: 2233 MHz 3: 2550 MHz
           4: 2295 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Intel 2nd Generation Core Integrated Graphics Controller
           bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: x11 (X.Org 1.19.6 )
           drivers: modesetting (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1366x768@60.03hz
           OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel Sandybridge Mobile
           version: 3.3 Mesa 18.0.5 Direct Render: Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 6 Series/C200 Series Family High Def. Audio Controller
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.15.0-38-generic
Network:   Card-1: Ralink RT5390 Wireless 802.11n 1T/1R PCIe
           driver: rt2800pci v: 2.3.0 bus-ID: 01:00.0
           IF: wlp1s0 state: up mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Realtek RTL8101/2/6E PCIE Fast/Gigabit Ethernet controller
           driver: r8169 v: 2.3LK-NAPI port: 3000 bus-ID: 02:00.0
           IF: eno1 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 2000.4GB (41.5% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: CT250MX500SSD1 size: 250.1GB
           ID-2: USB /dev/sdb model: N/A size: 750.2GB
           ID-3: USB /dev/sdc model: Expansion size: 1000.2GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 37G used: 16G (46%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
           ID-2: /home size: 183G used: 112G (65%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda5
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 65.0C mobo: N/A
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 245 Uptime: 1:11 Memory: 2010.0/5908.1MB
           Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 7.3.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.4.191) inxi: 2.3.56 
There are a couple of changes between Mint 18.x and 19 for intel graphics. In 19 the modesetting driver is now default. Out of the box in 18.x the older intel driver is used (package - xserver-xorg-video-intel). But the performance with the modesetting driver should be better in any intel chipset less than 10 years old. In 18.x you can switch to modesetting by uninstalling that package. I'm not sure to be honest how you do the reverse in 19. The package is present by default but modesetting is used.

Another thing that might help with intel graphics performance in 19 (and probably 18.3) is to install the i965-va-driver which allows the system to more fully utilise the GPU for video decoding. Beware right now this package does break Nemo video thumbnail generation in Mint 19 although that bug is fixed for Mint 19.1

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:04 pm

smurphos wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:04 am
vonMos wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:44 pm
Cinnamon and Intel drivers GPU for linux are the main factor. Who at Intel really writes code for old 2'nd gen or 3'rd gen like mine integrated graphics...on the other side in Windows it works like a charm..the drivers :)..but windows is slow as duck nearly 4 minutes.
The linux kernel drivers are pretty mature now for 2nd generation intel - this is my system - with good performance on Mint 18.x and now 19. Not that I do any complex graphical work, but it's fine for video, light gaming etc and with a SSD recently installed the desktop is lightning responsive.

Code: Select all

$ inxi -Fxz
System:    Host: steve-HP-Pavilion-g6-Notebook-PC Kernel: 4.15.0-38-generic x86_64
           bits: 64 gcc: 7.3.0
           Desktop: Cinnamon 3.8.9 (Gtk 3.22.30-1ubuntu1)
           Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara
Machine:   Device: laptop System: Hewlett-Packard product: HP Pavilion g6 Notebook PC v: 0690120000204710000620100 serial: N/A
           Mobo: Hewlett-Packard model: 166F v: 09.4C serial: N/A
           BIOS: Insyde v: F.66 date: 01/24/2013
Battery    BAT0: charge: 31.1 Wh 100.0% condition: 31.1/31.1 Wh (100%)
           model: Hewlett-Packard Primary status: Full
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core i5-2430M (-MT-MCP-) 
           arch: Sandy Bridge rev.7 cache: 3072 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 9578
           clock speeds: max: 3000 MHz 1: 2012 MHz 2: 2233 MHz 3: 2550 MHz
           4: 2295 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Intel 2nd Generation Core Integrated Graphics Controller
           bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: x11 (X.Org 1.19.6 )
           drivers: modesetting (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1366x768@60.03hz
           OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel Sandybridge Mobile
           version: 3.3 Mesa 18.0.5 Direct Render: Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 6 Series/C200 Series Family High Def. Audio Controller
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.15.0-38-generic
Network:   Card-1: Ralink RT5390 Wireless 802.11n 1T/1R PCIe
           driver: rt2800pci v: 2.3.0 bus-ID: 01:00.0
           IF: wlp1s0 state: up mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Realtek RTL8101/2/6E PCIE Fast/Gigabit Ethernet controller
           driver: r8169 v: 2.3LK-NAPI port: 3000 bus-ID: 02:00.0
           IF: eno1 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 2000.4GB (41.5% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: CT250MX500SSD1 size: 250.1GB
           ID-2: USB /dev/sdb model: N/A size: 750.2GB
           ID-3: USB /dev/sdc model: Expansion size: 1000.2GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 37G used: 16G (46%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda1
           ID-2: /home size: 183G used: 112G (65%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda5
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 65.0C mobo: N/A
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 245 Uptime: 1:11 Memory: 2010.0/5908.1MB
           Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 7.3.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.4.191) inxi: 2.3.56 
There are a couple of changes between Mint 18.x and 19 for intel graphics. In 19 the modesetting driver is now default. Out of the box in 18.x the older intel driver is used (package - xserver-xorg-video-intel). But the performance with the modesetting driver should be better in any intel chipset less than 10 years old. In 18.x you can switch to modesetting by uninstalling that package. I'm not sure to be honest how you do the reverse in 19. The package is present by default but modesetting is used.

Another thing that might help with intel graphics performance in 19 (and probably 18.3) is to install the i965-va-driver which allows the system to more fully utilise the GPU for video decoding. Beware right now this package does break Nemo video thumbnail generation in Mint 19 although that bug is fixed for Mint 19.1
This is mine

Code: Select all

Kernel: 4.15.0-38-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
           Desktop: Cinnamon 3.6.7 (Gtk 3.18.9-1ubuntu3.3)
           Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia
Machine:   System: Acer product: AO756 v: V1.09
           Mobo: Acer model: Mimic v: Type2 - Board Version
           Bios: Acer v: V1.09 date: 10/30/2012
CPU:       Dual core Intel Celeron 1007U (-MCP-) cache: 2048 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 5986
           clock speeds: max: 1500 MHz 1: 1040 MHz 2: 1004 MHz
Graphics:  Card: Intel 3rd Gen Core processor Graphics Controller
           bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 driver: intel
           Resolution: 1366x768@59.97hz
           GLX Renderer: Mesa DRI Intel Ivybridge Mobile
           GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 18.0.5 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card-1 Intel 7 Series/C210 Series Family High Definition Audio Controller
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Card-2 Sennheiser driver: USB Audio usb-ID: 002-007
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.15.0-38-generic
Network:   Card-1: Intel Centrino Wireless-N 105
           driver: iwlwifi bus-ID: 03:00.0
           IF: wlp3s0 state: up mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Broadcom NetLink BCM57785 Gigabit Ethernet PCIe
           driver: tg3 v: 3.137 bus-ID: 04:00.0
           IF: enp4s0f0 state: down mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 128.0GB (90.6% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: ADATA_SU800 size: 128.0GB
Partition: ID-1: / size: 19G used: 17G (94%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda3
           ID-2: /boot size: 276M used: 81M (31%) fs: ext2 dev: /dev/sda2
           ID-3: swap-1 size: 2.20GB used: 0.52GB (23%) fs: swap dev: /dev/dm-0
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 61.0C mobo: N/A
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 193 Uptime: 13:32 Memory: 2222.7/3785.1MB
           Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.481) inxi: 2.2.35 
Why don't u use EXT2 for boot? It's faster with ext2.

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by smurphos » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:03 am

vonMos wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:04 pm
Why don't u use EXT2 for boot? It's faster with ext2.
I can't be bothered to maintain a separate boot partition for a start...does it really make much difference?

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by vonMos » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:51 pm

smurphos wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:03 am
vonMos wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:04 pm
Why don't u use EXT2 for boot? It's faster with ext2.
I can't be bothered to maintain a separate boot partition for a start...does it really make much difference?
yep, it's fast as duck.. :)

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Re: Linux Mint 18.3 is better than 19 ... Why? I hope main developer see this

Post by gm10 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:50 pm

1. I have never seen a benchmark where ext2 would outperform ext4 on read performance.

2. Nobody cares about the file system performance for the 50 MB sequential read that's being done from /boot.

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