Please NO mono in Mint

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adrianx
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by adrianx » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:32 pm

I think this is an interesting argument against the use of Mono from Michael de Haan (Red Hat).
What’s the danger?

Half-open or quasi-legal software still serves us horribly as a movement and as a tool, and lending creedence to it is a slippery slope. It is the problem of the Community Edition, the jokingly referred to “Children’s Edition”, the idea that a codebase (or in this case, only part of a set of specifications) can exist, but the “good” bits are held back, because Open Source is not suitable to producing them. This is a dangerous and corrupting belief system to allow to exist. This is worse, actually, because there isn’t even a codebase — just a hint of a specification.
.....
More here: http://michaeldehaan.net/2009/07/07/bef ... late-mono/

Edit: More food for thought - http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 7043855128 (or FUD, if you prefer... :D)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by ShadeTree » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:14 pm

Our company has a 'no mono' policy which means we can't install distros with mono. The only option being is using some type of removes to get all the 'policy illegal' garbonzo off the systems.

It would be most reasonable that if Clem wanted to consider catering to institutions that there is some mechanism devised so that removing mono is very easily done.

Contrary to some C# Fanboys, when the push comes to shove the higher-ups are always going to have the say. Not every company out there has had a good experience with M$ so the sure cure is to avoid them all together.

Remember the what a good book says, about the thief and the devil entering the home of a strong man, neither may enter without being welcomed..

Mono has to come off or we go elsewhere,

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by nebcanuck » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:36 pm

I assume those speaking against Mono don't have Java, Flash, Multimedia Codecs, unrar, nvidia/ATI drivers, broadcom wireless firmwares installed... to support such a strong stance against this open project I would expect them to be radically opposed to anything not wholly and fully Free Software. And in this case, I would question their motivation to run a distribution such as Linux Mint or Ubuntu, which aren't 100% Free Software.

In regards to Silverlight, the question isn't whether The World needs yet another Flash-like technology or not, the question is whether to give people another reason not to run Linux when their online banking service, their Ebay account and so on start using this technology. If there's even a shadow of a doubt, if there's the slightest possibility that Silverlight might become popular then we need to work really hard to make it compatible on Linux.
Wanted to chime in to say that this is why I respect Clem and the mint distribution. The vision for the project is very honest and pragmatic, and I feel like it's got the potential to become actually usable for those average users without skill, like my siblings and parents.

I've not bothered considering the mono debate all that much. This is pretty much the first discussion I've read the whole way through. It's largely because the discussions are often filled with Microsoft hatred and "end of Linux" talk. That just doesn't fly in my books.

What does interest me more is the discussion of the ideals that goes on. Ideals, I mean, aside from "anything but Microsoft". As I see it, pretty much every project is a combination of founding ideals and pragmatic compromises. The hope is that the compromises aren't sufficient to undermine the ideals in the long run.

In this debate, a number of ideals come up, and Mint's response will depend on its stance towards them. For example:

Freedom. Obviously a staple of any Linux distribution, Mint even keeps the word in its tagline: "From Freedom came Elegance". The anti-Microsoft commentary should be refrained from. But it probably is a valid question whether software freedom is benefiting from the inclusion of mono. In a micro-sense, the answer is clearly "no", since mono is non-free software. But in a macro-sense, it has provided us with a number of excellent free programs, including gnome-do and banshee, presumably both of which will be included as defaults in Mint 8 because of the excellent job they are doing. Also, including compatibility for something like Silverlight is necessary in order to allow an average user to transition with minimal effort. How far does a distribution go in order to attract new users, or to get the best software available now rather than developing new software? That's not a simple answer. Obviously there has to be a point at which a compromise would be too great and would sacrifice freedom entirely. The question that arises: Is mono any less free than the existing compromises we've made? Is it really "too far"?

Simplicity. Perhaps even more interesting to me is the argument that was mentioned by linuxviolin in his other post. It was brief, but essentially it was "how many dependencies should we add in order to get new software?" If we include support for a whole new coding system for every 3 applications on Linux, the speed and simplicity of the system is going to be compromised, is it not? However, some people emphasize this way too much for my tastes. After all, on modern hardware, Ubuntu is not that much slower than Debian. If you're really that picky over 5 seconds of boot time, then use the latter. But for myself, and particularly for people who don't have any real computer savvy, the advantages of Mint far outweighs the slight loss of speed and simplicity. Again, to sacrifice this entirely would be terrible... one of the reasons I advocate for Linux is that I truly believe that aside from the bugs, it's a more logical and easy-to-learn system than Windows, even. But it certainly won't seem logical to a new user who has to go through all sorts of loopholes to install MP3 support, a la Fedora. The question that arises: Will adding mono significantly detract from the speed or simplicity of Linux?

Ingenuity. One of the cool things about the free software world is just how much can be accomplished by groups of people who aren't allowing themselves to be bound by the standards. By accepting the standards, the chance at developing something equal or better in a completely community-oriented manner is lost. But clearly one has to accept limited to ingenuity too, since doing the same work as someone else in order to prove you can do it is a silly way to go about life. If Microsoft has provided us with an excellent coding system, then why reinvent the wheel? Then again, why accept the wheel when you can invent a hovercraft? The question that arises: Is there a vision for a mono-but-better? Is it feasible to expect one to arise?

It's a fun debate, anyways. Anything which brings up questions of ideals can really challenge a leadership and a community. I just hope that the people here at Mint can continue offering their logic in a personable, open manner!
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by optimize me » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:11 am

nebcanuck wrote:Freedom. Obviously a staple of any Linux distribution, Mint even keeps the word in its tagline: "From Freedom came Elegance". The anti-Microsoft commentary should be refrained from. But it probably is a valid question whether software freedom is benefiting from the inclusion of mono. In a micro-sense, the answer is clearly "no", since mono is non-free software. But in a macro-sense, it has provided us with a number of excellent free programs, including gnome-do and banshee, presumably both of which will be included as defaults in Mint 8 because of the excellent job they are doing. Also, including compatibility for something like Silverlight is necessary in order to allow an average user to transition with minimal effort. How far does a distribution go in order to attract new users, or to get the best software available now rather than developing new software? That's not a simple answer. Obviously there has to be a point at which a compromise would be too great and would sacrifice freedom entirely. The question that arises: Is mono any less free than the existing compromises we've made? Is it really "too far"?
I sincerely hope that's not the case. I've seen this since this discussion started - what about Tomboy, Gnome-do, and Banshee? (Actually, I think that's the first time I saw Banshee mentioned, but still...)

Speaking for myself, of course: Banshee is not my media player of choice, I've never found use for Gnome-Do, and Tomboy is one of the first things I ditch out of a fresh Mint or Ubuntu install.

I don't know if those are the only mono-dependent applications currently on the drawing board for future releases or not, but if that's all I stand to benefit from the use of mono, then I guess I have no use for it.

I suppose if it's (mono) going to be there, as long as it's easily removable and getting rid of it doesn't FUBAR an install, there's no big deal. If it's going to end up tied into every aspect of the OS, on the other hand, well.... I don't know.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by nebcanuck » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:25 pm

Speaking for myself, of course: Banshee is not my media player of choice, I've never found use for Gnome-Do, and Tomboy is one of the first things I ditch out of a fresh Mint or Ubuntu install.
Obviously the Mint team has thus far thought differently about Tomboy and gnome-do, since they've both been included in the default install. Tomboy, as has been mentioned, is on its way out thanks to Gnote. But Banshee has been slowly replacing Rhythmbox as the favorite Gnome music player, and I think it's pretty hard to argue that it's not better than rhythmbox, at least. I tend to use banshee largely due to podcasting functionality, since Songbird and VLC aren't very good at that, and Rhythmbox doesn't allow for streaming. Since Ubuntu will be using Banshee as default, I'm assuming Mint will too.

F-spot is another one that was mentioned and is commonly included as a default app. I prefer Picasa, personally, but that's already away from the freedom principle.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:53 pm

Since Ubuntu will be using Banshee as default, I'm assuming Mint will too.
Not necessarily. Like other upstream "improvements" made to Ubuntu it will be reviewed to decide whether or not it will be inherited by Linux Mint. Such a review will of course look at dependencies and system impacts but it will mostly focus on usability and common use-cases. Politics, religion and ideology will be ignored unless some pragmatic and reasonable arguments come to the table. The arguments made by Michael de Haan for instance, although insufficient are perfectly valid. And I happen to agree with him when he explains how Microsoft can guarantee the best implementation of their own specifications and how Mono developers can feel attracted to a a more complete and better integrated environment under Windows. This is the kind of arguments people who want to see Mono out of Linux Mint should bring forward. They will be heard, they will be listened to. Hatred, antipathy, fear, trends will be ignored.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by optimize me » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:05 pm

nebcanuck wrote:Obviously the Mint team has thus far thought differently about Tomboy and gnome-do, since they've both been included in the default install. Tomboy, as has been mentioned, is on its way out thanks to Gnote. But Banshee has been slowly replacing Rhythmbox as the favorite Gnome music player, and I think it's pretty hard to argue that it's not better than rhythmbox, at least. I tend to use banshee largely due to podcasting functionality, since Songbird and VLC aren't very good at that, and Rhythmbox doesn't allow for streaming. Since Ubuntu will be using Banshee as default, I'm assuming Mint will too.

F-spot is another one that was mentioned and is commonly included as a default app. I prefer Picasa, personally, but that's already away from the freedom principle.
Well, yeah, everybody thinks differently about everything. My point with removing Tomboy isn't that I find Gnote (or any other comparable software) better or more comprehensive, it's that I have no use for virtual sticky-notes. If I feel I need a sticky note to remind me of something important, I'll use an actual sticky note to do it. OK, Banshee is getting more popular. It's not hard to see why - I've always felt Rhythmbox was a little "unpolished" (for lack of a better term) anyways. But neither one of them is my media player of choice - BMP suits my needs perfectly. The options are useful, I find the interface agreeable, and it does what I need it to do. (I think BMP is dying off, though, so I'm in the market for a new player. Maybe Banshee... who knows?) And Gnome-Do, well, like I said - I just never found a use for it, and I'll leave it at that. Picasa/F-spot.. I don't use programs like that, so I can't comment on them. I'm sure some people like/use them, since they do exist and all, so a "good job!" for the people who put those projects together...

I guess what I'm getting at is this: I choose Mint (or Ubuntu or whatver I use at whatever given moment) because I like that particular OS. I like the capabilities, the "controlability" and customization, the support and the functionality. I choose an OS based on these factors, not on what apps get bundled into a default install. Quite the opposite, actually - if an OS has a bunch of BS I don't want bundled into a fresh install, that's reason enough for me to steer clear of it.

(Ubuntu being a perfect example of this: They give you Tomboy, F-Spot, Evolution email, GIMP.. and they neglect to give you things like a decent Java runtime, Flash, multimedia codecs, and a lot of the things that Mint includes by default. Say what you will about their "freedom philosophy" or whatever, but that seems off to me.)

The point I'm trying to make (and doing horribly) is: All that crap should stay in the repos, not in a default install. If someone wants a photo manager, let them go dig it out of add/remove or mintinstall or synaptic or whatever. If someone wants virtual sticky notes all over their desktop, let them go download whatever sticky note program suits their needs. If someone wants a media player, let them find the one that does what they need a media player to do. I, for one, am rather weary of having to go through a default install of every Linux version I try out and having to gut the application base because the chosen apps are not what I like, what I need, or what I would ordinarily choose. I'm not trying to say my choices should be the defaults or some silly thing - quite the opposite - I don't think there should be defaults. Let people find that stuff on their own. Maybe, as OS developers, put together metapackages that have those things bundled into them so Average User can say "I'd like the multimedia bundle," or "I'd like the photo editing/managing bundle" and they can find and install that.

Or, maybe I'm just a cranky bastard and something like Arch or Gentoo or DIY Linux is more up my alley, so I can build my distro from scratch and include only the applications I want.

I guess I'm a little off the "please no mono" topic here, but when it comes down to the fact that its' inclusion is based on a bunch of applications that I have never and probably will never use, I guess I'm not that far off...
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by nebcanuck » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:49 pm

The point I'm trying to make (and doing horribly) is: All that crap should stay in the repos, not in a default install. If someone wants a photo manager, let them go dig it out of add/remove or mintinstall or synaptic or whatever. If someone wants virtual sticky notes all over their desktop, let them go download whatever sticky note program suits their needs. If someone wants a media player, let them find the one that does what they need a media player to do. I, for one, am rather weary of having to go through a default install of every Linux version I try out and having to gut the application base because the chosen apps are not what I like, what I need, or what I would ordinarily choose. I'm not trying to say my choices should be the defaults or some silly thing - quite the opposite - I don't think there should be defaults. Let people find that stuff on their own. Maybe, as OS developers, put together metapackages that have those things bundled into them so Average User can say "I'd like the multimedia bundle," or "I'd like the photo editing/managing bundle" and they can find and install that.
Problem is, for someone like my mom, there's no time nor motivation to go searching for these things. Nor the ability, really, especially on a foreign OS.

I think the customizability of Linux and FOSS is one of the undeniable strong points. That's been made even more accessible through the inclusion of great graphical tools like MintInstall and MintMenu. But to get average users anywhere near the point where they begin customizing, the out of the box experience needs to be verging on complete.

For myself, I spend more time adding stuff than removing it. I've not found that Linux lags as terribly as Windows even as a few more things are added to the list. And thank goodness for that -- with 4 siblings back home, their home computer gets pretty stretched!
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by FedoraRefugee » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:20 am

nebcanuck wrote:
The point I'm trying to make (and doing horribly) is: All that crap should stay in the repos, not in a default install. If someone wants a photo manager, let them go dig it out of add/remove or mintinstall or synaptic or whatever. If someone wants virtual sticky notes all over their desktop, let them go download whatever sticky note program suits their needs. If someone wants a media player, let them find the one that does what they need a media player to do. I, for one, am rather weary of having to go through a default install of every Linux version I try out and having to gut the application base because the chosen apps are not what I like, what I need, or what I would ordinarily choose. I'm not trying to say my choices should be the defaults or some silly thing - quite the opposite - I don't think there should be defaults. Let people find that stuff on their own. Maybe, as OS developers, put together metapackages that have those things bundled into them so Average User can say "I'd like the multimedia bundle," or "I'd like the photo editing/managing bundle" and they can find and install that.
Problem is, for someone like my mom, there's no time nor motivation to go searching for these things. Nor the ability, really, especially on a foreign OS.

I think the customizability of Linux and FOSS is one of the undeniable strong points. That's been made even more accessible through the inclusion of great graphical tools like MintInstall and MintMenu. But to get average users anywhere near the point where they begin customizing, the out of the box experience needs to be verging on complete.

For myself, I spend more time adding stuff than removing it. I've not found that Linux lags as terribly as Windows even as a few more things are added to the list. And thank goodness for that -- with 4 siblings back home, their home computer gets pretty stretched!
Agreed! Optimize me, If you are tired of stripping the developers choice of apps then why not use something like Arch or build a debian net install? YOU have the experience! I sort of think like you do, and I side with you on the mono thing. What I disagree with is the same as nebcanuck here points out. Mint is the beginners distro. There is no shame in that, we all love Mint for its completeness out of the box and ease of install and use. I can slap it on any machine in 15 minutes and watch any movie or play any music without having to worry about installing anything. Even on the point of mono, this is just NOT the distro to make a stand. Just let it be what Clem envisions. It is the distro that is attracting the masses, it is the one that dares to answer the challenge of why use Linux over Windows. The typical person entering into Linux with this distro does not need any added complications. And if you think I am just one of those "make it like Windows" anti-terminal dorks then read my posts in here. I have been openly criticized for arguing against these people and the fools who think Mint ios going to take over the world from Windows. But I do concede that this distro, out of all of them, is the one that needs a well thought out list of default apps complete codecs and whatever else they can throw in. Even mono. I am not interested in making a stand with this distro, I use Arch for the reasons Optimize me lists. That is my distro of choice. Linux is Linux, it could as easily be sidux, slack or gentoo. Crunchbang rocks. Lets not ruin Mint, keep it idiot proof.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by emorrp1 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:38 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:Agreed! Optimize me, If you are tired of stripping the developers choice of apps then why not use something like Arch or build a debian net install? YOU have the experience! I sort of think like you do, and I side with you on the mono thing. What I disagree with is the same as nebcanuck here points out. Mint is the beginners distro. There is no shame in that, we all love Mint for its completeness out of the box and ease of install and use. I can slap it on any machine in 15 minutes and watch any movie or play any music without having to worry about installing anything. Even on the point of mono, this is just NOT the distro to make a stand. Just let it be what Clem envisions. It is the distro that is attracting the masses, it is the one that dares to answer the challenge of why use Linux over Windows. The typical person entering into Linux with this distro does not need any added complications. And if you think I am just one of those "make it like Windows" anti-terminal dorks then read my posts in here. I have been openly criticized for arguing against these people and the fools who think Mint ios going to take over the world from Windows. But I do concede that this distro, out of all of them, is the one that needs a well thought out list of default apps complete codecs and whatever else they can throw in. Even mono. I am not interested in making a stand with this distro, I use Arch for the reasons Optimize me lists. That is my distro of choice. Linux is Linux, it could as easily be sidux, slack or gentoo. Crunchbang rocks. Lets not ruin Mint, keep it idiot proof.
Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself!
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by mmesantos1 » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:03 pm

Yes please don't make Mint to dificult, it would really screw things up for me! :wink:

I love how easy it is to get things done in Mint. I am useing this ditro becouse it works out of box! I will uninstall what I feel is not needed and do not mind doing so. I have read many articles on this mono thing and wow. At any rate I will miss Rhythmbox if it is replaced by Banshee, I do not really use podcast in Rhythmbox so do not have a need for Banshee which I have used and do not like as much as Rhythmbox. I do not use tomboy nor gnote so either way that part will not bother me. As for non-free software if it makes my PC run better then give it to me and I will agree to the license terms. After all what good is a PC if it is not running at its best. I will pute it this way if I could not have got my PC running just as good as it does with Windows I would not have switched to linux!! I only use Windows now mainly for the games I cannot play in Linux, ya I know there are ways to get some games to run in linux but I just want to install and play! :wink:

Well thats my 2 cents on the matter. Thanks for the open ear and the open mind. :)
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by ShadeTree » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:44 pm

optimize me wrote:
nebcanuck wrote: Or, maybe I'm just a cranky bastard and something like Arch or Gentoo or DIY Linux is more up my alley, so I can build my distro from scratch and include only the applications I want.
I for one wish to thank you for your note. It appears there are several other thinking feeling people out there that are willing for people to be responsible for themselves by allowing those that wish a specific application to add it themselves instead of being dumbed down to the Microsoft level. You're right of course seven years ago when people were getting beat up right and left with RPM hell because a certain distro wished to use a certain infrastructure against the wishes of their user population 'Mandrake', by insisting that 260Mb of QT and Trolltech binaries be loaded onto the system just so the kernel would update!

Again I find myself facing the problem of 'meta packages' and will be installing Ubuntu x64 on the laptop in a few minutes. A couple of removes and all the offending mono binaries and dependent applications will remove in a cascading flourish. You see the decision was made back in 1999 or so that QT and Trollech would not be used. There has never been a reason and if Gnome continues on their destructive path, rest assured there will be something else coming along that will supplant them.

As for Arch or Gentoo, please lean toward Arch, having used Gentoo for many years the sight of a user sitting over their system with a pistol in their mouth is extremely unappealing.

I'll see you in Ubuntu Land, where meta packages are not yet the norm.

Good Luck in the Future,

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by DrHu » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:51 pm

clem wrote:Not necessarily. Like other upstream "improvements" made to Ubuntu it will be reviewed to decide whether or not it will be inherited by Linux Mint. Such a review will of course look at dependencies and system impacts but it will mostly focus on usability and common use-cases. Politics, religion and ideology will be ignored unless some pragmatic and reasonable arguments come to the table. ...The arguments made by Michael de Haan for instance, although insufficient are perfectly valid. And I happen to agree with him when he explains how Microsoft can guarantee the best implementation of their own specifications and how Mono developers can feel attracted to a a more complete and better integrated environment under Windows.
I can't say I am so worried about it, I am just a little cautious, and I expect to have to wait
--Oh; say 5 yrs or so to see how this mono thing works out and how far inside Gnome it gets buried
--or switch to KDE..

Mono is packed into Linux Mint via some preferred applications
I guess it is kinda of Microsoft bashing or fear of Microsoft motives
--probably borne out by their history within the computer (PC) industry

it will mostly focus on usability and common use-cases
--although perfectly understandable from a business viewpoint, that is the exact problem: pragmatism or utilitarianism..
http://mono-project.com/Main_Page
  • The Mono Migration Analyzer (MoMA) tool helps you identify issues you may have when porting your .Net application to Mono. It helps pinpoint platform specific calls (P/Invoke) and areas that are not yet supported by the Mono project
That being said, some Linux developers even if they find it convenient to use the Mono development system, perhaps they may work in windows & Linux or they want to provide a .net like system for Linux, are still doing a disservice to the Linux roadmath/trend, and possibly hindering other tools (the ones that existed or still exist) after Mono became a project

And despite the utility of just succumbing to the avalanche of Win<-->Linux applications, they may be doing no favor to themselves or Linux in general, by becoming engulfed into the Microsoft compatible universe It is inevitable, given Microsoft business model, that there will be some future price to pay..; despite Microsoft's CP (Community Promise), it has enough legal exceptions language to be able to cause some future issues vis-a-vis GPL etc..
--but since that might be 5-10yrs away, no worries Mate!

--Even if I do think multiplatform OS applications are more useful to Linux as a project than the silos that Windows or Apple or Oracle or other software suppliers have made for themselves; but entrapping others into the same lifeboat, making everyone (on the boat) float in the direction the Captain dictates..

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by mich » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:53 pm

Installed Debian with netinstl all this while, not a programmer and not a die-hard Gnome user so
- doesn't really understand the Mono thingy and does not worry me that much BUT

Read this post and just couldn't stop myself from posting an analogy that I've once heard
There is two way to kill a tree
e.g. a person's reputation, change a person's habit, .... opensource?
One - use a big axe and chop it down
e.g. use patent and all those crazy stuff to sue them
Two - use a small knife and make one cut at a time, before anyone realise, it's dead
(aka like the put frog in water and add heat slowly thingy)
e.g. let's hope mono will not be this :)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:23 am

Mono is what is pushing me away from Gnome. Mint (and about any Gnome based distribution) is dependent on Ubuntu decisions concerning Gnome development. Too bad, Ubuntu is integrating more an more tools based on Mono, and giving them more and more resources compared to native equivalent. For example Rhythmbox vs Banshee: first by choosing Rhythmbox they allowed it to progress quick enough, now by replacing it with Banshee, they are killing Rhythmbox.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by raywhite » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:30 am

Oh, please yes, saves me having to install it!

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by FedoraRefugee » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:56 am

raywhite wrote:Oh, please yes, saves me having to install it!
This is your very first post and you resurrect a thread that has been dead for 6 months?

To say what?

Oh, please yes? Yes what? The title is "please NO mono in Mint!" Are you agreeing that we should keep mono out of Mint? If that is the case then yes, you WOULD have to install it!

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by markfiend » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:01 am

As someone has resurrected this thread I may as well chuck in my twopennorth:

Personally, I have removed Mono (and the apps that depend on it) from my Mint system. I never used the Mono apps and I can always use the HD space; anti-Microsoft paranoia was only a side issue (I think my tinfoil hat was slipping that day).

However I think that Clem's stance that he will continue to include Mono is the correct one. Mint is a fantastic distro for beginners and for those of us who want things to just work. And a large part of that is due to the wide selection of applications that come installed as default.

There are plenty of other distros out there for people with other priorities. I'll continue to go distro-hopping on the spare partition I have on my Mint box, but I'm sticking with Mint as my primary distro for the foreseeable future.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.

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hunkirdowne
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by hunkirdowne » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:34 am

markfiend wrote:As someone has resurrected this thread I may as well chuck in my twopennorth:
However I think that Clem's stance that he will continue to include Mono is the correct one. Mint is a fantastic distro for beginners and for those of us who want things to just work. And a large part of that is due to the wide selection of applications that come installed as default.
I think a bit about Mint's history and philosophy and direction and Clem and... would help put things in perspective.

"Linux Mint's purpose is to produce an elegant, up to date and comfortable GNU/Linux desktop distribution."
--http://www.linuxmint.com/about.php

The way I understand it, Clem started Mint to make Ubuntu a little more Ubuntu than Ubuntu. I'm not really trying to be vague or silly but it does come natural. What I mean is that with Ubuntu you had to find and install a bunch of stuff just to get multimedia working properly. With Mint it just works, thanks to Clem. In the case of Mono, regardless of philosophy or rationale, much is apparently dependent on it and if it were not included would have to be added to satisfy those dependencies. This would defeat the purpose of Mint.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a purist at heart. I find a clean installation of Debian Stable to be a wonderful thing. Sure, I'll go about customizing it, loading non-OSS stuff and such, but for the moment that I breathe the high mountain air it is a peaceful occassion. So I use Debian not only as a base but as a learning tool and, if nothing else, a backup. I use Mint when I don't want to have to think about what I want to do and where I want to go online and whether or not I have the tools to get things done. It's all there.

One last thing, Mint is a very efficient operating system. I'm using Helena and it is the only distro using Gnome 2.28.0 that I've come across that is usable on this old laptop. I've used Gnome for years and don't recall exactly when I started having problems with it, but with the exception of Mint have abandoned it for Xfce, KDE 3.5.10 (Debian), or KDE 4.3.5 (openSUSE) -- all of which run better on my system than even Mint. So I (speaking for myself, not to you or anyone else) would be careful about making what I consider to be a request on infrastructure. What the Mint team does works quite well and if that means using Mono...

:)
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linuxviolin
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:35 pm

Oh no, not again this! I and many other people have already commented on this subject over time and no matter what we say, Clem has clearly expressed (and he stays stuck on) his desire to keep Mono. It's his decision and we need to respect it, that we agree or not, unfortunately.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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