Please NO mono in Mint

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clem
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:36 am

I find it easier to uninstall mono than to find reasons why I would want it to be removed.

Technically speaking you can remove mono and because of dependencies you'll also have to remove tomboy, and the Linux Mint meta-packages.

For reasons not directly related to this topic, gnote will replace tomboy in Linux Mint 8 Helena as the default note-taking application.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by EnthusOcn » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:21 am

clem wrote:Technically speaking you can remove mono and because of dependencies you'll also have to remove tomboy, and the Linux Mint meta-packages.
Thank you. I plan on using the KDE CE, which I assume does not come with Tomboy.

But what do you mean the Linux Mint meta-packages? Aren't those needed for... Linux Mint? All of them?

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by T J Tulley » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:23 am

Can't help feeling we need another topic!

However, before this ends, I want to remark that as Clem has announced that Tomboy will be replaced by gnote in Helena, I hope we'll have some very clear advice about carrying forward our present Tomboy notes!

I've just looked up Mono in Wikipedia and the last paragraph says:

"However, on July 6th, 2009, Microsoft announced that it was placing their ECMA 334 and ECMA 335 specifications under their Community Promise pledging that they would not assert their patents against anyone implementing, distributing, or using alternative implementations of .NET[13] which have dispelled the patent concerns over the ECMA portions of Mono."
Yours hopefully -

Theo Tulley.
Using a PC with 2GB RAM, 3 hdds and a 1.7 GHz Celeron cpu.

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Fred
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by Fred » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:56 pm

Mr. Tulley,

You deserve the title. I was taught to always respect my elders. :-)

Your last paragraph is not entirely correct in my opinion, as far as mono now being completely safe.

I commented on this subject in another thread.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... on#p169809

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by merlwiz79 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:43 am

T J Tulley wrote:However, before this ends, I want to remark that as Clem has announced that Tomboy will be replaced by gnote in Helena, I hope we'll have some very clear advice about carrying forward our present Tomboy notes!
Currently you can rename your ~/.tomboy folder to ~/.gnote and gnote will use everything from it.
Not sure why he would switch to gnote.
Gnote doesn't have a panel plugin like tomboy does.
Also Giver still requires Mono.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by T J Tulley » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:49 am

Thanks to Fred and Merlwiz79 for the last two notes.

I avoid using a title when I can in accordance with the Quaker testimony to equality. At this level, titles are not perhaps as relevant today (at least in western societies) as they were in 17th-18th century England so I don't bother too much if websites insist on "Mr" though some Quakers still make it more of an issue.

Fred's reference to his note in the KDE/CE forum reveals the community of developers and long-term Linux veterans, with knowledge of the history of Open-Source software. I can't effectively contribute to that. As for my last paragraph - it was a quotation from Wiki which I couldn't evaluate as he does.

If Tomboy disappears and gnote can't appear on the panel, I suppose I can put a link on my desktop as I do for all the data files and programs I frequently use - more convenient than MintMenu. In Linux I've only ever lived with Mint Standard Edition and therefore Gnome, so I don't know what other desktops look like or how they behave. It would take too long for me to explore alternatives.

I still haven't discovered how to use Gnome-Do: and this raises an important issue concerning promotion of Mint: many features remain to be discovered by accident by new users. However I suppose it's inevitable that all such face a long 'learning curve'. Reading the Release Notes helps, but to a Newbie much there is initially unintelligible.
Yours hopefully -

Theo Tulley.
Using a PC with 2GB RAM, 3 hdds and a 1.7 GHz Celeron cpu.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:26 pm

Gnote does of course come with a panel applet.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:14 pm

I fully agree for no Mono by default in Mint. You can read my post about Mono here if you want...
FedoraRefugee wrote:debian decided to stay with mono.
Hmm, I have Debian Testing and no Mono installed by default! Idem for Parsix (based on Debian Testing)... :roll:
johonunu wrote:think it would be good idea to create distribution without Mono !
I use Debian Testing... (see above)
Last edited by linuxviolin on Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by optimize me » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:26 pm

linuxviolin wrote:I agree for no Mono by default in Mint. You can read my post about Mono here if you want...
That's the best thought-out, most well-reasoned reply I've ever seen on the topic to date.

Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by Fred » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:32 pm

optimize me wrote:
That's the best thought-out, most well-reasoned reply I've ever seen on the topic to date.
That is the way all of linuxviolin's posts are. That is why I always try to read his posts. :-)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:52 pm

Fred wrote:That is the way all of linuxviolin's posts are. That is why I always try to read his posts. :-)
Thanks Fred, idem for yours :D

I just forgot one thing in my previous post. For now you can remove/purge Gnome of Mono but in the future this may no longer be possible, e.g. Gnome 3...

Gnome got more and more contaminated (even depend on) with Mono, even maybe soon you will no longer remove Mono from Gnome! :twisted:
Last edited by linuxviolin on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by FedoraRefugee » Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:56 pm

linuxviolin wrote:I fully agree for no Mono by default in Mint. You can read my post about Mono here if you want...
FedoraRefugee wrote:debian decided to stay with mono.
Hmm, I have Debian Testing and no Mono installed by default! Idem for Parsix (based on Debian Testing)... :roll:
Quite right, I stand corrected.

http://www.h-online.com/open/Debian-Mon ... tem/113660

Debian does NOT contain mono by default, it would only be installed by selecting the Gnome meta package.

While I do not see mono as any kind of a risk I do agree with you in that it is silly to include it. I respect Clem's decision but think more people feel strongly about losing it than not.

edit: In case it is any interest to anyone I have moved my personal computers to Arch using Fluxbox. This really suites me. I am, however, still running Mint on 4 computers in my house that my children use. They run Xfce. I do not do Gnome anymore. :D

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:13 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote:
linuxviolin wrote:I fully agree for no Mono by default in Mint. You can read my post about Mono here if you want...
FedoraRefugee wrote:debian decided to stay with mono.
Hmm, I have Debian Testing and no Mono installed by default! Idem for Parsix (based on Debian Testing)... :roll:
Quite right, I stand corrected.

http://www.h-online.com/open/Debian-Mon ... tem/113660

Debian does NOT contain mono by default, it would only be installed by selecting the Gnome meta package.
Meta-package 'Gnome' yes maybe but "According to Schmehl, this "everything GNOME" meta-package is not the most popular GNOME package, with Debian users preferring gnome-desktop and gnome-core." :wink:

But the main thing is, and all distros should follow this,: NO MONO BY DEFAULT IN DEBIAN!
FedoraRefugee wrote:I do agree with you in that it is silly to include it.
OK, so we agree... :D
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:05 am

No offence to linuxviolin but I still don't see a valid reason to boycott or even "do without" Mono. As a programmer I prefer to use other technologies, that doesn't mean other developers need to do the same. When it comes to Mono, it comes down to the size of the packages, to their dependencies, to the licensing, to the desktop integration, and so far I can't see any valid reason to go against this technology. I am amazed at the reaction some people have against it, and I have to admit, I don't understand it.

I assume those speaking against Mono don't have Java, Flash, Multimedia Codecs, unrar, nvidia/ATI drivers, broadcom wireless firmwares installed... to support such a strong stance against this open project I would expect them to be radically opposed to anything not wholly and fully Free Software. And in this case, I would question their motivation to run a distribution such as Linux Mint or Ubuntu, which aren't 100% Free Software.

In regards to Silverlight, the question isn't whether The World needs yet another Flash-like technology or not, the question is whether to give people another reason not to run Linux when their online banking service, their Ebay account and so on start using this technology. If there's even a shadow of a doubt, if there's the slightest possibility that Silverlight might become popular then we need to work really hard to make it compatible on Linux.

What's all that about then? There are free Flash projects and yet everyone uses the Macromedia plugin... and that seems fine with everybody, and here comes a FREE and OPEN Silverlight plugin and all we can do is spit on it?

Give me solid, valid, pragmatic and coherent reasons, and then I'll consider not using Mono. I haven't heard any yet.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:13 am

clem wrote:No offence to linuxviolin but I still don't see a valid reason to boycott or even "do without" Mono.
No offense to you too Clem :D but I guess you don't understand and I'm afraid that you never understand... :(

I respect your opinion but again the problem is not to boycott it but being forced to use it. Even a popular desktop as Gnome become more and more dependent of a Microsoft technology, aka Mono. Really, the future is dark... :twisted:

So if I understand well your reasoning, you say something like: such or such thing is used/promoted by some people so we use it, whatever crap it can be... (I cartoon maybe a little but that's about what you said)

This is a "mouton de Panurge" attitude: if somebody uses something and force people to use his/her useless "invention" then all people must use it. OK, then if someone jumps into a river with a stone around the neck we must do the same and even force the others to the same thing?

This attitude is also a Microsoft attitude, to force people to use their technology, and why not just Windows too. Linux becomes more and more like it. Linux the new Windows, the future Vista-like or Windows 7-like... This way, when Linux will *really* be considered as "ready for the desktop" by each and everyone, it will be a horrendous collection of bugs — and people will ask themselves how life was when computers were not such a pile of ****.

As I said in my post here:
Why haven’t people accepted the dictate of the monoculture?

Because some of them were not that stupid. But right now, they are. They adopted the Mono-culture.
The advocates of the “need of Mono on Linux” don’t require Mono for something like (random example) “ASP.NET business portals using the Maverick MVC framework” — something I could understand from a business logic standpoint —, but for petty GUI applications written in Gtk#! (Once again, how could the world even exist prior to the Mono reimplementation of .NET?) Now we know why the Linux desktop environments are getting thousands of bugs and half-baked features with the speed of light in the last ~5 years: because people like them want all the eye-catching "features" of Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X "ported" to Linux.

I’m tired to hear how little common sense they have and to see the perverted mind of some individuals.

Again we don't ask to boycott Mono, just do not install it by default. Like Debian for example, it is there in the repos if someone wants it but the default install doesn't install it. It's the good practice.

P.S.= Silverlight? Moonlight? What for? For a **** even more smelling than Macromedia/Adobe Flash?
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:57 am

Nobody is forcing anybody here. The default software selection is here to please the maximum number of people. After that, each user is free to add/remove anything he/she sees fit. "If" Linux didn't support Moonlight, then people would be "forced" indeed to use Microsoft Windows or alike... the presence of Mono, when so many websites are migrating to Silverlight, actually gives them the choice to run Linux.

The only argument you gave here was that the technology came from Microsoft. And this is obviously not a valid argument. My wheel mouse comes from Microsoft and I can tell you, judging by the scores I get at Urban Terror, it's a pretty good mouse :wink:

You see, just because Windows is incomplete, slow, intrusive, annoying and proprietary doesn't mean everything Microsoft does is evil or of bad quality. It's a big company, it's full of talented developers, depending on who's deciding what and when, it has multiple faces so don't be too quick to think you "know" Microsoft. They do a lot of good things too and when that happens we should recognize it and use it to our advantage. As far as I know C# is a very good language and many developers are fond of it, so turning our back on this technology and whatever these guys are developing, simply because this initially came from the "Empire of all Evil" Microsoft, that, to me, doesn't make much sense.

Again, I'm listening and I'm happy to learn. If I'm mistaken then I'll gladly change my mind. But so far I've heard nothing but fear, anger... nothing that made a good and solid argument not to use Mono. I don't want passion, I want arguments.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by dlkreations » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:17 am

I agree with Clem completely. This has seemed to be more of a Microsoft bashing than anything concrete. Microsoft had paved the way for a lot of technologies that we use today, whether they are on Windows, Linux and Mac. I'm not saying that MS pioneered everything, but they definitely have given a lot to technology.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:53 pm

This is not really a Microsoft problem. I said this in previous posts or here also. Read again, e.g.:
linuxviolin wrote:We don’t need Mono, the same way we don’t need Java. It’s not just about Microsoft.

(...)

Note that I would have said the same if GNOME-based distro would ship Java apps instead of C# apps.
But as I said I’m tired by all these sterile discussions. Actually probably people will understand never or they don't want or too late. So I'm going to stop here.

Unfortunately we are increasingly forced to use this kind of crap. Again look at Gnome. "For now you can remove/purge Gnome of Mono but in the future this may no longer be possible. " And KDE4 with its vista-like desktop is crap too, Xfce is a mess... OK, continue to follow the Mono-culture, continue to "want all the eye-catching "features" of Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X "ported" to Linux", to "want all the eye-catching "features" of Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X "ported" to Linux"... "This way, when Linux will *really* be considered as "ready for the desktop" by each and everyone, it will be a horrendous collection of bugs — and people will ask themselves how life was when computers were not such a pile of ****." (yes I quote myself :lol:)

I like Linux, I use almost exclusively Linux but really the future of Linux on the desktop is dark... :(
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:18 pm

Well let's agree to disagree, and in the meantime I'll go using things I don't need (chocolate, games, TV... I could go on forever..).

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:46 pm

clem wrote:Well let's agree to disagree, and in the meantime I'll go using things I don't need (chocolate, games, TV... I could go on forever..).

Clem.
:lol: I appreciate the humor... :lol: Thanks :D
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