Please NO mono in Mint

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clem
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem »

I'm not pro-mono. I just haven't heard any argument that was valid enough to consider myself against it. As far as I'm concerned it's a runtime lib on which depend some software which I find valuable to Mint.

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linuxviolin
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin »

clem wrote:I'm not pro-mono. I just haven't heard any argument that was valid enough to consider myself against it.
Ok, if you say it, lol. Not "valid enough"? Yet there were many... But you'll be never agree, me and other neither, so I guess people must stop with this. There is Mono in Mint and, at least for now, unfortunately this will not change, period. If people are not agree with this political then they don't use Mint...
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by mmesantos1 »

Hmmm.... This topic still going on. :?: Pointless, mono, no mono, in the end the end user will do what they feel is right so let them decide to keep it or uninstall it. Is it really that hard to use apt-get purge or synaptic if you do not like the terminal? Stop barking at Clem over something so trivial. :D
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clem
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem »

It might change, but based on pragmatic reasons and with the interest of the user in mind, not politics. I think I've learnt not to dwelve into politics and my role here is to design a desktop as comfortable as it can be. Freedom is an important aspect as well but when it comes to Mono there's no tangible restrictions or issues that should push us into avoiding or boycotting it, i hear fear and distaste, concerns which I do not share and I fail to see how Mono differs in that respect to technologies such as Flash or even Java, Mp3, dvdcss... It's in fact more open and less patent infringed than some of these and we cannot afford to miss compatibility on new medias such as silverlight while banks a major websites adopt it on their websites.

I might be wrong, maybe, as I said, I just haven't heard the right arguments yet. Don't presume I'm stuck and won't change my mind though. I'm happy to learn and open to feedback, especially if I'm wrong and it helps improving this distribution.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by tdockery97 »

clem wrote:It might change, but based on pragmatic reasons and with the interest of the user in mind, not politics. I think I've learnt not to dwelve into politics and my role here is to design a desktop as comfortable as it can be.
Right on!
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by randomizer »

If you remove ADO.NET, ASP.NET and WinForms compatibility from Mono you're left with an implementation of an ECMA standard, so I don't know what the problem is apart from the aforementioned technologies. I'm not overly familiar with the software so I don't know if this is already the case, but it would be good if those technologies that aren't part of the ECMA standard were separately installable to the base .NET implementation. That would allow most existing Linux software that is dependent on Mono to run without any chance of patent violation.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit »

clem wrote:(...) i hear fear and distaste, concerns which I do not share and I fail to see how Mono differs in that respect to technologies such as Flash or even Java, Mp3, dvdcss...
Except that for Flash for example, there was no real alternative until HTML5 (and it is still incomplete). Look at what is happening on 64 bits OSes now: no more Flash ! And that's the main reason why I won't install a 64 bits Mint or 64 bits W7 ! Using such a technology, you are totally dependent on what the proprietary decides.
So why push Mono when there are fully viable alternatives ? There is no *need* for now for Mono, do you really want to see the day when we won't be able to do without Mono and when Microsoft will decide that Mono infringes some .net patents and that it is not allowed anymore to be used outside Windows (or any similar threat) ?
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem »

We're not "pushing" Mono... we would if we designed linuxmint.com in Silverlight and forced all visitors to download the plugin. It's quite the opposite in fact.. the World is adopting Mono and whether we like it or not, a lot of people out there and many important websites are using it. This is a fact. Tomorrow we have the following choice: do our best to support it as well, or start telling Joe user that he can't check his bank accounts using Linux.

There's a lot of common things people can't do with Linux... and they couldn't care less what the reason is, they see that it doesn't work and they move on. The iPhone not syncing with anything than iTunes doesn't make people buy other phones, it makes people keep Windows/Mac. A bank adopting an IE-Silverlight-only-compatible website doesn't make people move to a different bank, it makes them ditch Firefox/Linux. So let's not forget who we are, what our leverage is and let's remain pragmatic, we're not deciders here when it comes to content, we're followers, and we can either be compatible with a technology we don't like or not at all...

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin »

GoustiFruit wrote:There is no *need* for now for Mono
Yes, we have NO need for Mono.
Clem wrote:the World is adopting Mono and whether we like it or not, a lot of people out there and many important websites are using it. This is a fact.
I'm sorry but for me this argument is not good, not admissible. :? And if tomorrow the World empties into a river with a big stone tied around his neck, everyone will have to follow? Or if for any reason even false and/or a lie (hmm no reference :mrgreen:), a government declares war to another, people will have to follow blindly?
Clem wrote:The iPhone not syncing with anything than iTunes doesn't make people buy other phones, it makes people keep Windows/Mac
Apple becomes now worse than Microsoft and it is a great danger for freedom... :twisted:
Clem wrote:it makes them ditch Firefox/Linux
And if they decide to go to exclusively with IE, we'll all have to go with it too? :roll:
Clem wrote:So let's not forget who we are, what our leverage is and let's remain pragmatic, we're not deciders here when it comes to content, we're followers
Unfortunately. We are guinea pigs... But if nobody opposes resistance, especially in the FOSS, where do we go? We'll let the "deciders" choose what is good for us and force us in it, we like it or not, without saying anything? So we must accept the crap because they require and so we must bend and be silent? :evil:

If you need this Mono thing and all its .exe and .dll for you make feel "at home" in Linux, then go ahead... :twisted: :(

If I want to be dependent of a Microsoft technology I just go with Windows...
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by clem »

What are you talking about?? So because we've got ext we've no need for FAT? Because we've got NFS there's no need for Samba? Because there's Ubiquity there's no need for Wubi... and the list goes on? Didn't you hear my main argument here? It is a need indeed when your bank switches to Silverlight and you rely on Mono for the compatibility. The only choices you've got at this stage are:

A - Change bank
B - Reboot and use Windows
C - Use Linux and donate money to the Mono devs cause if it wasn't for them your only choices would be A or B

Of course, one can dream of a World where consumers are almighty and a 2% market share lobby gives nightmares to all entrepreneurs... but in the real world it's much simpler than that: A company does something that looks cool (typical examples: Silverlight, the iPad, the iPhone), it creates some marketing/buzz around it, and next thing you know the market is using it. People don't care how it's made, how they can use it or even what it does. They use Facebook cause their friends are on it, an iPhone cause it looks cool and Silverlight cause their bank switched to it. And then there are a few people too look into Diaspora, Android and to switch banks whenever their website isn't 100% standard HTML... I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong linuxviolin, but it would be a mistake for them to think that their personal choices have any impact on the market or on other users. Nowadays, these other users aren't all using Windows or Mac OS, these other users are also using Linux Mint and other desktop-ready distributions.

PS: Also, just to be clear on Mono.. are you telling me you're running Mint without w32codecs, NTFS support, OpenOffice.org, Java, Flash, Samba, and a Linux kernel (let's not forget Microsoft claimed patents on the kernel itself). It's a lot to do without, especially for something that doesn't make any sense... that has no legitimacy and isn't considered valid legally in most countries around the World (including ours): software patents. What is it about Mono, that is different than all these other exotic technologies and that generates such an amount of controversy? How do we get to the point where we're questioning an open source project while most people still use proprietary 3D drivers and we rely on Flash for most of our on-line content? I'm not asking for FUD, hate, or amazement here, I really would like to hear pragmatic arguments against Mono and an explanation as to why, really, it goes against our interest, as Linux users, or as Linux distributors.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin »

clem wrote:in the real world it's much simpler than that: A company does something that looks cool (typical examples: Silverlight, the iPad, the iPhone), it creates some marketing/buzz around it, and next thing you know the market is using it
I have no Apple product neither want one, I don't use Silverlight and I have no problem for surfing, I don't use some social network, just IM... :wink:
clem wrote:People don't care how it's made, how they can use it or even what it does.
I know and I have always said people were stupid and guinea pigs without common sense etc (although of course I don't make some generality) The "real" world is very sad and crap... :cry:

Clem, you say you're not pro-mono, I want to believe you but seen everything I saw and read, you seem very close however... And there were some/many quite relevant arguments, in this forum or in the blog or elsewhere, but you have always swept them with the back of the hand as non valid for you. Ok it's your choice/advice but it's quite/very sad.

We, me + other and you, will be never agree on this issue so I think again we must stop this sterile discussion/debate. We must accept there is Mono in Mint, at least for now, period.

But don't misunderstand me. I am quite aware of the work you do, appreciate it and thank you. :D

P.S.= Codecs and Mono are not the same thing, really... neither Samba. But let us stop here. :wink:
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit »

If I had to install SilverLight or any such proprietary technology to access my bank website, first thing I would do is ask them to switch to some standard technology. Next, depending on their answer, I would probably to *change* bank and let them know it's because of their limiting technology. A few years ago, the french government allowed declaring incomes on Internet using Java certificates and it only worked for Windows+IE ! Lots of people complained that they couldn't use the service because they were using another browser, another OS, or no java. Thanks to their pressure, it is now possible to declare ones incomes on Linux, using any browser and without Java.
The same way as in the past I've asked some sites to change their code so that I could browse them in Firefox or Opera instead of having to use IE only. A few years ago, lots of websites were made for IE only, and it caused many problems. It's only thanks to the pressure (and success) of such projects as Mozilla Firefox that the web changed to something more opened. If you now make it so that one has to use a new Microsoft technology to access their website, then what was acquired by fighting during all these years will be lost. *We* don't need Mono yet, yet Microsoft *needs* that we need it in the future.
Never forget Microsoft mantra: "embrace and extend". They killed Netscape, they killed all their competitors for years using this method. They didn't see the web coming, but they are now trying to catch up, and they will use such technologies to this intend.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by waldo »

Linuxviolin, there are plenty of distros that do not have Mono. Why are you so concerned with Mint? Why do you care what Clem does? He is creating only one distro out of over 500. Use one of the others that adheres to your agenda and belief tenets. You, more than many, have advocated "choice" as the principal benefit of Linux. You have a choice, and so does Clem, and those that like what he is creating.

Clem, you're on the right track for real computers users. Thanks.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin »

waldo wrote:Linuxviolin, there are plenty of distros that do not have Mono. Why are you so concerned with Mint?
Hey, why me? there are other persons here who would prefer or want no Mono... I'm not the only. :wink:
waldo wrote:for real computers users.
Er, for real followers and ready to accept everything even idiot. Hmm :lol:

But let us stop with that now. It's a sterile and endless debate... and anyway it's Clem who will have the last word :!:
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by randomizer »

There will always need to be "followers." Whether you follow a proprietary or open standard, you're still following something. If nobody wants to follow anybody else, we won't have standards. i only see an issue when the standard is restricting progress or usability but is so entrenched that nobody moves away from it. Internet Explorer continues its legacy of being the browser that redefines web standards (IE9 looks to be changing that after all these years).

.NET serves a similar purpose to Java. Both are proprietary, open source platforms and both are also nice technologies, especially when paired with an IDE built to take advantage of them. .NET is partially an open and partially a patented standard. There are obviously issues with building tools based on the patented parts of the platform but MS can't do anything about what is already an ECMA standard. If MS do start causing trouble, the Mono team can simply remove the patented technologies and leave the rest of the .NET framework.

Since MS like to be the standard in every market they enter, I can't see them wanting to reduce the proliferation of .NET via Mono.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit »

randomizer wrote:.NET serves a similar purpose to Java.
Then Oracle vs Google on java usage should give you some hints. :x

What proliferation of .net via Mono are you talking about ? Windows has and is always installed on something like 95% of PCs around the world, do you really think that they are working on .net in anticipation to the day when Linux will have conquered the market ? Don't you think that they do this to preserve their current monopoly ? They are killing the chicken in the egg !

@Waldo: I'm not linuxviolin but I'm concerned with Mint because except for some choices (well only Mono comes to my mind), it is one of the best linux distributions. Not all of the 500+ linux distributions are targeted at a vast majority of users, most of them aim to fill some niche market or are used as test fields. Mint is somewhat a leading distribution (as mentioned in the installer it is the 4 (or 5 ?) most used OS), it is based on Ubuntu which itself includes and promotes Mono way too much in comparison to its supposed benefits. That means that the most used alternative system to Microsoft OS is already infiltrated by Microsoft technology and may one day be depending on it.
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by randomizer »

Windows doesn't have the same install base in the (web) server arena. .NET is widely used on Windows servers (particularly those running IIS rather than Apache) so why not expand usage to Linux servers as well?
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by alpha1 »

I believe Clem has a very pragmatic approach.

Most of the websites and users EXPECT their OS to support certain technologies (which are prevalent).
You and me sitting remotely in one corner of the world and typing furiously on web boards is not going to change those expectations.

What we have to do is to FALL IN LINE.
Fall in line and exceed their expectations.
Thus, we convert ppl to using our OS.
NEXT, this thing propagates and more users flock to us for their needs (Operating system).
Unless we have a significant majority - say at least 10-15% no one will bother listening to us and our ideals.

Case in point?
Firefox.
Its only pretty recently that govt and banking sites started supporting Firefox - thats because its share in the market became significant.
This was not done overnight.
... and this was not done in a knee-jerk reaction to IE.

So what do we do?
Well, as I said, we fall in line, exceed their expectations, "convert" ppl to our OS, and seek a majority share in the market.
Then we are in a position to "dictate" our terms like MS and their technologies.


And Clem is also right in asking pp if they use "proprietary" codecs etc.
If you believe so much in totally free technology - why do you use them?
You use them because the media available to you is encoded in those codecs.
So you need to make a compromise on your ideals in order to make your life simpler and more enjoyable.

Shouldn't that be the motto of a distro?
Most n00bs (including me) strike Fedora off for these reasons.
So much that even Ubuntu was deemed not suitable by me.
We chose Mint, because it simply WORKS.

Wouldn't want that thing to break ... ever.
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GoustiFruit
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit »

alpha1 wrote:Most of the websites and users EXPECT their OS to support certain technologies (which are prevalent).
You and me sitting remotely in one corner of the world and typing furiously on web boards is not going to change those expectations.
Case in point?
Firefox.
Its only pretty recently that govt and banking sites started supporting Firefox - thats because its share in the market became significant.
I think you're taking the problem the wrong way: thanks to Firefox and alikes, the web has now changed to be more *standards* compliant, and more and more designers/programmers are making so that the websites they work on can be seen and used by a maximum of users. Using a technology such as SilverLight just cuts their website from a lot of visitors. It's like going back in time when you had logos "Designed for Internet Explorer" or "Better viewed in Netscape".

While you are at it, why not push ActiveX into Linux because some sites require it ?

Also, do you think that Google will make ChromeOS use .Net/Mono ???
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by axel668 »

Hey why stop with Mono ? Why not get rid of ANYTHING, Mono, Java, Ooo (Oracle is surely as evil as MS, if not worse), Chromium (Google is the mother of evil), ANY Video Codec (those that are not proprietary are at least subject to patent attacks) and Flash ? Oh proprietary drivers, not to forget (but maybe the Open Source Intel drivers are only a patent trap either ?!?)

I don't know about you, but what I like about Mint is that it includes all these things. I'd even say that's Mint's philosophy, not being religious about OpenSource but being pragmatic and including EVERYTHING you need. If you don't like that, go and get GnewSense ... with a bit of luck it might even run on your hardware.
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