Please NO mono in Mint

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alpha1
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by alpha1 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:27 am

I believe Clem has a very pragmatic approach.

Most of the websites and users EXPECT their OS to support certain technologies (which are prevalent).
You and me sitting remotely in one corner of the world and typing furiously on web boards is not going to change those expectations.

What we have to do is to FALL IN LINE.
Fall in line and exceed their expectations.
Thus, we convert ppl to using our OS.
NEXT, this thing propagates and more users flock to us for their needs (Operating system).
Unless we have a significant majority - say at least 10-15% no one will bother listening to us and our ideals.

Case in point?
Firefox.
Its only pretty recently that govt and banking sites started supporting Firefox - thats because its share in the market became significant.
This was not done overnight.
... and this was not done in a knee-jerk reaction to IE.

So what do we do?
Well, as I said, we fall in line, exceed their expectations, "convert" ppl to our OS, and seek a majority share in the market.
Then we are in a position to "dictate" our terms like MS and their technologies.


And Clem is also right in asking pp if they use "proprietary" codecs etc.
If you believe so much in totally free technology - why do you use them?
You use them because the media available to you is encoded in those codecs.
So you need to make a compromise on your ideals in order to make your life simpler and more enjoyable.

Shouldn't that be the motto of a distro?
Most n00bs (including me) strike Fedora off for these reasons.
So much that even Ubuntu was deemed not suitable by me.
We chose Mint, because it simply WORKS.

Wouldn't want that thing to break ... ever.

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GoustiFruit
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by GoustiFruit » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:10 am

alpha1 wrote:Most of the websites and users EXPECT their OS to support certain technologies (which are prevalent).
You and me sitting remotely in one corner of the world and typing furiously on web boards is not going to change those expectations.
Case in point?
Firefox.
Its only pretty recently that govt and banking sites started supporting Firefox - thats because its share in the market became significant.
I think you're taking the problem the wrong way: thanks to Firefox and alikes, the web has now changed to be more *standards* compliant, and more and more designers/programmers are making so that the websites they work on can be seen and used by a maximum of users. Using a technology such as SilverLight just cuts their website from a lot of visitors. It's like going back in time when you had logos "Designed for Internet Explorer" or "Better viewed in Netscape".

While you are at it, why not push ActiveX into Linux because some sites require it ?

Also, do you think that Google will make ChromeOS use .Net/Mono ???

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axel668
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by axel668 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:46 am

Hey why stop with Mono ? Why not get rid of ANYTHING, Mono, Java, Ooo (Oracle is surely as evil as MS, if not worse), Chromium (Google is the mother of evil), ANY Video Codec (those that are not proprietary are at least subject to patent attacks) and Flash ? Oh proprietary drivers, not to forget (but maybe the Open Source Intel drivers are only a patent trap either ?!?)

I don't know about you, but what I like about Mint is that it includes all these things. I'd even say that's Mint's philosophy, not being religious about OpenSource but being pragmatic and including EVERYTHING you need. If you don't like that, go and get GnewSense ... with a bit of luck it might even run on your hardware.
“A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila” (Mitch Ratcliffe)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:35 am

alpha1 wrote:Shouldn't that be the motto of a distro?
Most n00bs (including me) strike Fedora off for these reasons.
So much that even Ubuntu was deemed not suitable by me.
We chose Mint, because it simply WORKS..
Pragmatic? If you say it. In fact, here it is not even be specially pro or versus, it's more that I think when something is so controversial, the subject of so many debates... it should not be included by default, the choice should be left to the user *choosing* to install it or not and not to impose it by default. That's all.

But I've already talked enough about Mono in this forum and elsewhere, already explained so many things... this subject makes me just sick now. :twisted:

Btw, what is the problem with Fedora? It is really easy to add what you want. Just one repo to add and hop, everything is there. Even noobs can make that without many problems... Even in Ubuntu this is not very difficult. I hope people use Mint for another reasons that just those... :roll:

P.S.= axel668, the "problem" with Mono is not the same. And for the record, ALL distros I use or used run WITHOUT Mono and I have never had big/real problems... Some sites can perhaps be a little problematic, well, if they are really unusable I can go elsewhere, I use another site. There are sufficient resources, fortunately... :)
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by deleted » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:10 pm

Maybe I should read the entire thread, but NO mono in Mint is like saying No C++ apps in Mint. At the end of the day do I really care what language the app is written in? Not really. I care if the app does what I need it to do (and that it's not a pig). When I install a new distro, one of the first things I do is install Banshee. I don't want to get in a media player war. I'm just offering anecdotal evidence to support my opinion that it really doesn't matter that parts of Banshee is in mono. It does what I want it to do. Do I expect Mint to automatically ship with it? No. I can install it myself. It's not hard. There are quite a few instances (like Peppermint) where I start with a base installation and end up using it in a way the distro maintainer didn't envision. In the case of Peppermint, I use it for a file server/vm host. A far cry from cloud computing;)
-H

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:20 pm

hinto wrote:Maybe I should read the entire thread, but NO mono in Mint is like saying No C++ apps in Mint. At the end of the day do I really care what language the app is written in? Not really. I care if the app does what I need it to do (and that it's not a pig). When I install a new distro, one of the first things I do is install Banshee. I don't want to get in a media player war. I'm just offering anecdotal evidence to support my opinion that it really doesn't matter that parts of Banshee is in mono. It does what I want it to do. Do I expect Mint to automatically ship with it? No. I can install it myself. It's not hard. There are quite a few instances (like Peppermint) where I start with a base installation and end up using it in a way the distro maintainer didn't envision. In the case of Peppermint, I use it for a file server/vm host. A far cry from cloud computing;)
-H
I understand that, but with this attitude one can make you to use, to sell you etc anything. It works, it does what I want, then I do not see/look no further. I know that unfortunately this is a typical behavior and in a lot of areas, but for me it's almost irresponsible, sorry if the word is strong, and even dangerous. I'm sorry people be just stupid and guinea pigs. Let me never to accept it and to fight, so to speak, versus. :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by deleted » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:02 pm

Maybe I am just a lowbrow redneck from NC ;) But sometimes these things are like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you'd read my post, you'd see that the main thing is that I can tailor any distro to meet my needs. What my needs are are just that, my needs. I don't need a distro to add/remove packages according to my needs. A liveCD/DVD is just a starting point. Not the ending point.
-H

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linuxviolin
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:36 pm

hinto wrote:If you'd read my post
I did :mrgreen:
hinto wrote:how many angels can dance on the head of a pin
Er, if I can ask, please no religious things here... :roll:
hinto wrote:I don't need a distro to add/remove packages according to my needs. A liveCD/DVD is just a starting point. Not the ending point.
For YOU, and I'm very happy for you, not for the majority.

Btw, my last post was not to somebody in particular, here or elsewhere, I hope everybody will have understand that and nobody has misunderstood it. :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by deleted » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:42 pm

linuxviolin wrote: For YOU, and I'm very happy for you, not for the majority.
So does the majority run off the LiveCD/DVD and not install it? If so, I'm surprised. OW, the Package Manager (Synaptic) and/or the Software Manager are pretty darn easy to use to add/remove packages.
-Hinto

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linuxviolin
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:55 pm

hinto wrote:the Package Manager (Synaptic) and/or the Software Manager are pretty darn easy to use to add/remove packages.
Of course but the problem here is Mono and its contamination, its "invasion"... Gnome, Ubuntu etc From what point will people start to ask themselves (good) questions and no longer just "accepting" and "just using" what is given them without saying a word? When it will be too late, or perhaps even probably never...? The word is quite sad :cry:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by deleted » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:09 pm

linuxviolin wrote:Of course but the problem here is Mono and its contamination, its "invasion"... Gnome, Ubuntu etc From what point will people start to ask themselves (good) questions and no longer just "accepting" and "just using" what is given them without saying a word? When it will be too late, or perhaps even probably never...? The word is quite sad :cry:
Can't the same be said to "No QT apps in Gnome" or "No GTK apps in KDE"? Since I run Firefox and Thunderbird 99.9% of the time I run Gnome.

Additionally, why don't we say add K3B to all Mint distros. K3B is clearly more superior to Brasero, due to the DAO feature in K3B. Most liveCD/DVD distros want you to burn the iso DAO so you'll get a good burn. Brasero doesn't have that option. So after burning a couple of drink coasters with Brasero, I installed K3B. Do I then say please NO more Brasero? Of course not. I just quietly install K3b and use it and post back to the forum if someone has problems burning a liveCD/DVD. At least on this forum, the distro maintainer does read the posts, so if enough folks say Brasero is making drink coasters, then he can take it under advisement for the next release.

For distros, I do accept what is offered. It's too easy to distro hop. My rule of thumb is that if I can't do a fresh install and be productive in 20 minutes (at work), then the distro is lacking a good out of the box experience. And if I find myself creating a bunch of packages from source (or a repo doesn't offer it) then I chose an immature distro, and make a trip to Distrowatch (again)
-Hinto

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:47 pm

People can just be okay with you but what is your point? Mono is not at all the same thing than a burning app or other... This is a different issue. And again you talk for *yourself* or people like you or me. But for instance, look at a person accustomed to Windows and so who has with Windows many/several apps included, so who, like many people, can use it without need to add something... Unfortunately she won't arise many questions and will use what you give it without asking any questions, even if these are crap or bad. :roll:

But to talk about this, you are right, K3b is a good burning app, one of the best if not the best. Brasero was good then crap then good again... Xfburn, the burning app of the Xfce desktop, is/was also quite good. There are many problems with burning apps, e.g. often they read very badly the speeds of the drive and give often values quite farfetched/outrageous and absolutely not those at which you (can) actually burn, resulting sometimes/often some problems... Xfburn generally is/was good for that, K3b also and maybe the best app for the majority of people and and most needs, Brasero, well, it's changing...

If you want asking for K3b in every edition of Mint, why not? You can try... :D
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by deleted » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:24 pm

linuxviolin wrote:People can just be okay with you but what is your point? Mono is not at all the same thing than a burning app or other... This is a different issue. And again you talk for *yourself* or people like you or me.
It's the same. It's just technology. Just because I accept what's out of the box doesn't mean I don't understand it. And apparently you are the one that's complaining about mono, not the industry as a whole. Tons of distros contain it.
linuxviolin wrote:If you want asking for K3b in every edition of Mint, why not? You can try... :D
Hmmm... maybe because the ease of installation outweighs the effort getting it on a cd.
-Hinto

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:54 pm

hinto wrote:It's the same. It's just technology.
No. Mono or an app is not the same issue.
hinto wrote:Tons of distros contain it.
And what? As I already said, if tomorrow "tons of people" empties into a river with a big stone tied around the neck, everyone will have to follow? This is not an argument.

And again, I don't ask the "destruction", sic, of Mono but just that it not be included by default. Again, "when something is so controversial, the subject of so many debates... it should not be included by default, the choice should be left to the user *choosing* to install it or not and not to impose it by default." Mono is a particular thing and for me almost like a cancer... (I know, it's a little "harsh" maybe? Hmm... :mrgreen:) Plus, we have no need for it. (I do not speak here about Mint but in a more general)

I guess we'll be never agree and like I said earlier this debate is sterile and endless, and anyway it's Clem who will have the last word. So let's say we are agree to be disagree, ok? :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by monkeyboy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:14 pm

One of the joys of the net is that everybody with a opinion gets a chance to have their say. On the downside its a magnet for every contrarian on the planet.
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by linuxviolin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:11 pm

monkeyboy wrote:On the downside
Why "the downside"? At the contrary, it's a chance and it's happy. If only this could be the same thing everywhere... and fortunately there were some contrarians, if not Humanity would has lost a lot of things and perhaps would not have changed/evolved much... :roll:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by tdockery97 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:02 am

and fortunately there were some contrarians, if not Humanity would has lost a lot of things and perhaps would not have changed/evolved much... :roll:
Agreed. If not for contrarians, Columbus, Magellan, et al would have stayed at home and I wouldn't be able to enjoy Salem, Oregon :D
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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by alpha1 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:06 am

tdockery97 wrote:
and fortunately there were some contrarians, if not Humanity would has lost a lot of things and perhaps would not have changed/evolved much... :roll:
Agreed. If not for contrarians, Columbus, Magellan, et al would have stayed at home and I wouldn't be able to enjoy Salem, Oregon :D
Perhaps you would've liked living in Europe more than Americas ... who knows ;P

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Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Post by tdockery97 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:53 am

I guess I'll never know. :lol:
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