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Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:27 pm
by gil_1
Many distributions have introduced Mono in their base installation. Please not to use Mono in the installation base of the next versions of Mint

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:01 am
by DrHu
I would agree
--if anyone wants to do .net type development with C#, they could find their own way. It is not needed for the regular user
http://osdir.com/Article10300.phtml
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25215/1090/1/0/
http://ubuntulinuxhelp.com/mono-in-ubuntu-yes-or-no/
--maybe we will have to remove the Tomboy app and any other dependent apps to prevent this..

In fact if it is avoidable to prevent Microsoft's .net framework being loaded into windows via some of their updates, I would do that as well

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:20 am
by optimize me
I see this a lot in a lot of different forums.

I'm not a programmer. Two years into using Linux, I'm only starting to wade into the shallow end of the pool of Bash scripting.

I had to go look up what Mono was. I had to read what the .NET framework was all about.

Beyond the usual, knee-jerk reaction of "zOMMFG mICRO$UCK IZ GONNA B IN MY COMPZ NOW WTFBBQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111" that seems prevalent across the entire spectrum of the Linux world, nobody (including OP of this thread and the lone respondent) ever bother to say one thing: Why.

Why not include Mono? Why not include .NET capability?

I don't like that some distros include Evolution as the default mail client, and the the evolution-common and evolution-data-server are so intertwined with Gnome functionality that if you were to remove those packages, you might just as well remove all of Gnome and run your PC from a TTY. So, I just remove the Evolution mail client, install TBird, and call it good.

I don't like the open Java runtime that was all the rage across a couple versions of Ubuntu. (IcedTea, I think they called it?) It didn't work the way it was supposed to, which in my eyes, makes it worth about as much as a petal of piss in the wind. So, I just removed it and installed the Sun JRE, agreed to the license terms, and called it good.

That's the other thing I notice: Many of the people who are knee-jerking "OMFG MONO OMFG .NET I HATE BILL GATEZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!11" don't have any problem installing other proprietary software, agreeing to those license terms, and using them on a daily basis. Java and Flash are two obvious examples. OpenJDK (or whatever it's called) is garbage, and Gnash, while making progress, still isn't a viable replacement for the proprietary version.

So, to stay on topic, I guess my question is as I stated up there: Why? Why not include mono in a base install if it's just going to be a package that can be removed in Synaptic just like anything else? You're already using a version of Linux that installs proprietary (non-free) software as part of it's base install, anyways... What's one more package?

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:04 am
by proxima_centauri
Several popular applications use mono, including gnome-do, banshee and tomboy, to name a few.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:20 pm
by Katzedecimal
@Optimise-Me:

The problem is that Microsoft has been using "Linux uses proprietary components" as part of their sabre-rattling for quite some time. It's feared that Mono will give them a leg to stand on that the courts, who usually don't know any better and are ignorant (as in unknowing) of Microsoft's history, will believe and award to, possibly paving the way towards restricting Linux development in the U.S. Therefore, there are many who would prefer simply to avoid Mono altogether.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:35 pm
by FedoraRefugee
debian decided to stay with mono. Ubuntu will probably stay with mono. I am sure if that is the case Mint will also. Maybe the CE versions can be mono free? At any rate, a few distros, like Fedora, have gone mono free. Just use them. Or else just remove mono from your distro. I really do not see what the big deal is either. MS is pissing into the wind, they will rattle their sabers no matter what anyone else does. Screw them! Who cares?

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:49 pm
by DrHu
optimize me wrote:So, to stay on topic, I guess my question is as I stated up there: Why? Why not include mono in a base install if it's just going to be a package that can be removed in Synaptic just like anything else?
Because it can't be without affecting applications or gnome or other dependent connections
Gnote is a C++ replacement for tomboy, but not included in Mint repositories, and I am a little worried if I remove tomboy, what is mint meta gnome, mint meta main that will also be removed by the package manager (synaptic)
  • mint meta main
    All the packages installed by default in the Main Edition of Linux Mint.
  • mint meta gnome
    Set of packages common to all Gnome-based editions of Linux Mint.
If somebody wanted to use mono, that's fine, but it shouldn't be forced into the system's innards.
--then OMG, we know what happens in a few years, it is entrenched Microsoft makes a move against Linux more than they have so far and demands a co-licensing agreement or some similar bondage, and then the Linux distributor is stuck with something not easily expunged..

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:06 pm
by merlwiz79
DrHu wrote:Gnote is a C++ replacemet for tomboy, but not included in Mint repositories, and I am a little worried if I remove tomboy, what is mint meta gnome, mint meta main that will also be removed by the package manager (synaptic)
Gnote has been in the Community Repo since 0.1.0 and it's at 0.5.0 now, which is the latest version out.
http://packages.linuxmint.com/#7community

The main thing I dislike about mono is the space it needs.
If someone doesn't want it they can remove it.
I see no reason for all the hate.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:17 pm
by optimize me
DrHu wrote:Gnote is a C++ replacemet for tomboy, but not included in Mint repositories, and I am a little worried if I remove tomboy, what is mint meta gnome, mint meta main that will also be removed by the package manager (synaptic)
Believe it or not, the very first thing I did when I fired up my Mint laptop for the first time after I installed was purge Tomboy (and several other apps I have no use for that come with Ubuntu).

Code: Select all

$ dpkg -l | grep mint
ii  compiz-check                               0.4.5-4-mint2                                  Script to check if it's possible to run Compiz on your sy
ii  firefox                                    3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-1mint1-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 meta package for the popular mozilla web browser
ii  firefox-3.0                                3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-1mint1-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 safe and easy web browser from Mozilla
ii  firefox-3.0-branding                       3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-1mint1-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 Package that ships the firefox branding
ii  firefox-3.0-gnome-support                  3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-1mint1-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 Support for Gnome in Mozilla Firefox
ii  firefox-gnome-support                      3.0.11+build2+nobinonly-1mint1-0ubuntu0.9.04.1 meta package pointing to the latest gnome-support package
ii  grub-gfxboot                               0.97-29-mintz-15                               GRand Unified Bootloader
ii  gtk2-engines-aurora                        1.5.1~pablo1-1mint1                            Aurora engine for GTK+ 2.x
ii  linuxmint-keyring                          2009.04.29                                     GnuPG key of the Linux Mint repository
ii  mint-artwork-gnome                         2.5.3                                          Default artwork for Linux Mint
ii  mint-info-main                             7.0.3                                          Necessary information about the Linux Mint release and ed
ii  mint-search-addon                          2.0                                            Enhances the results given by Google CSE
ii  mintbackup                                 1.6.2                                          Home Directory Backup Tool
ii  mintdesktop                                3.1.3                                          Desktop configuration tool
ii  mintinstall                                6.3.5                                          Software Manager
ii  mintmenu                                   4.7.8                                          The Linux Mint Menu for Gnome
ii  mintnanny                                  1.3.3                                          Domain blocker for Linux Mint
ii  mintsystem                                 7.4.8                                          Linux Mint System Base Package
ii  mintupdate                                 3.7.7                                          Linux Mint Update Manager
ii  mintupload                                 3.3.4                                          Uploads files on the Internet
ii  mintwelcome                                1.2.5                                          Welcome screen for Linux Mint
ii  mintwifi                                   1.9                                            Collection of drivers for you to configure your wireless 
ii  python-apt                                 0.7.9-0mint1                                   Python interface to libapt-pkg
ii  usplash-theme-mint                         7.0.1                                          Usplash theme for Linux Mint
ii  xchat                                      2.8.6-2.2mint4.1ubuntu4                        IRC client for X similar to AmIRC
ii  xchat-common                               2.8.6-2.2mint4.1ubuntu4                        Common files for X-Chat
ii  yelp                                       2.25.1-1mint1-0ubuntu5                         Help browser for GNOME 2
Those metapackages you mention are gone, yes, but all the Mint core-apps are still there, and I can't say I've noticed any glitches or problems because of the missing metas.

In Ubuntu, the first thing I used to do (after ditching Tomboy) was ditch the metapackage ubuntu-desktop. It says it's going to remove all sorts of things, and it looks like if you remove it it's going to wipe out your system, cause the earth to burn, the sky to fall, etc... but it doesn't. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule that more experienced users can point out, but from my experience, most times you can safely remove metapackages without too many adverse effects. You might have to go back and re-install some things manually, but how big a deal is that?

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:31 pm
by clem
OK, I don't want to join the debate... but here are two facts:

- I don't see anything wrong with Mono. I'm open and interested in hearing valid arguments, but I won't give any attention to FUD regarding this technology. I don't care about software patents, about empty threats or about where great ideas originate from.

- I'm thinking about replacing Tomboy Notes with GNote in Linux Mint 8. The last time I looked into it, it seemed faster, lighter and more suitable.

Clem.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:35 pm
by clem
Meta-packages are nothing else than meta-packages... if you're scared of them, take some time and learn about APT.

Code: Select all

apt remove the-unwanted-meta-package
aptitude unmarkauto ~M
aptitude keep-all
I know it's not trivial, but then again, knowing a Debian-based system means understanding APT, not that much too read, and it's very well documented by the Debian project.

Clem.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:00 am
by midas
What about the KDE-distros? It seems to me they are less affected by mono-packages...
Perhaps another reason to choose for KDE, specially after hearing the rumours about Gnome 3.0 :-)

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:03 am
by johonunu
I agree with Clem. As long as Microsoft doesn't say it is illigal, I don't see any problem with using it. For me I couldn't live without : Gnome-Do, Benshee, F-Spot and Tomboy. And all of these are Mono apps. And I will say it, I LOOOVE MONO ! Because if these Mono apps haven't been invented, I would probably be stucked on Windows, but now Windows is no more for me ! And about threats of patents, well, how people today use Flash player on Linux, how do they play DVDs when they use restricted codecs, and so on :? Really I don't see any difference ! Why Ubuntu 9.10 will have Benshee as default media player ? Let's face it, because it is the BEST media player outhere for Linux ! So for people who don't like Mono, they can switch to Fedora, who doesn't have Mono, but the distribution itself is a *beep* ! All Mono haters, I have to say that most of your talk, makes Mono evil and patenty affraid ! I think that most of you didn't think about it very good ! And I think that most of you have at least one Mono app on your computer, installed flash player and restricted codecs ! I know I am right 99% :evil:

At the end, if you want to remove Mono, then remove flash player, remove video codecs, etc. and what you get ? OS that is not usable, at least for me (and I think for most of users) ! So if I am conserned, Mono is not removing and that's it 8)

P.S. for those who doesn't like or don't wonna use Mono, I think it would be good idea to create distribution without Mono ! You can use Linux Mint as base ! And everyone is happy ! You can call it Monofree Linux :D I am at the same time joking, but for Mono haters it would be great idea !

P.S.S. I get sooooooo bored when I see these Mono topics :roll:

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:38 am
by Pierre
One of the joys about Mint is that Clem & some of the crew, - Don't live in the U.S. of A.
& so don't have to follow those crazy Software Restrictions that the poor souls in the U.S. have to. :D

There is already a cut-down version of Mint for those in the U.S. to use,
however for those of us in the RoTW - the main version with Everything Installed is the only way . :)

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:52 am
by exploder
Nothing wrong with using Mono.

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/26117/1090/

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:25 pm
by clem
Pierre wrote:One of the joys about Mint is that Clem & some of the crew, - Don't live in the U.S. of A.
& so don't have to follow those crazy Software Restrictions that the poor souls in the U.S. have to. :D

There is already a cut-down version of Mint for those in the U.S. to use,
however for those of us in the RoTW - the main version with Everything Installed is the only way . :)
I wouldn't mind living in the USA... I visited once and I really liked it. Not to mention I'm a big fan of American football... well anyway..

The Universal edition isn't all that bad. It comes with an item in the Sound & Video menu, which when you click on it, installs all the missing packages and brings you back to the equivalent of the Main Edition... you just need to click with the mouse really. :)

Clem.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:46 pm
by DrHu
clem wrote:Meta-packages are nothing else than meta-packages... if you're scared of them, take some time and learn about APT. I know it's not trivial, but then again, knowing a Debian-based system means understanding APT, not that much too read, and it's very well documented by the Debian project. Clem.
Thanks, but that isn't all a meta package is, sometimes it is META ...(meaning more is packed into it..)
http://blog.olszowka.de/2009/01/22/sett ... a-package/

So when a user sees that a meta package is being removed when you delete/remove a single application, it gives pause..
--even if most of the time meta packages are dummy or transitional packages within a particular distribution,; but not always explained as is the case for Tomboy..
apt remove the-unwanted-meta-package
aptitude unmarkauto ~M
aptitude keep-all

Not entirely sure of that sequence, if I have time I will check..
http://ascending.wordpress.com/2007/04/ ... nmarkauto/
http://newbiedoc.berlios.de/wiki/Aptitu ... nd_Apt-get
2.2 Global fix of Aptitude's internal database
Tell Aptitude to "keep-all" installed packages. This cancels all scheduled actions on all packages (including installation, removal, or upgrade).
# aptitude keep-all

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:57 am
by T J Tulley
Pierre wrote:One of the joys about Mint is that Clem & some of the crew, - Don't live in the U.S. of A.
& so don't have to follow those crazy Software Restrictions that the poor souls in the U.S. have to. :D

There is already a cut-down version of Mint for those in the U.S. to use,
however for those of us in the RoTW - the main version with Everything Installed is the only way . :)
I think Pierre has it in one!

I'd hate to be without Tomboy - and Compiz is (apart from Mint!) the best thing since sliced bread.

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:39 am
by maybeway36
Who says we in the US have to follow all the licensing restrictions? Nobody has gone after anything in Linux Mint yet - if they do, I'll uninstall it. ;)

Re: Please NO mono in Mint

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 am
by EnthusOcn
There is an awful lot of hate in this thread towards people who don't want to use Mono. I have to say this is one of the more civil discussions I've read, but that doesn't mean it is civil. (Subtle difference, I know.) The people who have suggested it be removed were all quite civil, as are have of the Mono proponents. Good for you all. Then people started bring up prejoritive terms to refer to people who don't want to use Mono. That confused me.

Mono is very large. So large they were going to remove the GIMP to use it in Ubuntu. I fully and strongly support Mono being in MintInstall since it is a dependency. But there is no need to make it a default. Anyone who installs Gnome-Do would automatically download it with Gnome-Do. That's the great thing about the way we do online installations in Linux.

Someone said developers can find their own way to get Mono. That confused me. Shouldn't it be just another package like any other?

Also, it should be trivial to remove Mono. This is acceptable. Just uninstall Tomboy and Mono and your Mono free. And I assume GNote will be mature soon and can be added to the package manager.

Since there is such division on this subject, I would suggest that Mono bo opt in (i.e., when you install TomBoy, Banshee, or F-Spot installMint will download Mono as a dependency) not opt out (as I indicated above). But in either case it should be easy. (I could even invision an install option. Uncheck yes to Mono.)

I honestly haven't checked my distro--and I'm planning on moving to LinuxMint soon. Is it easy to uninstall Mono right now?