Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Pjotr » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:53 am

BigEasy wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:44 am
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:41 pm
And, as said, even that will still be possible, by a smart use of apt-mark hold. :wink:
Stupid question: apt-mark hold what? How can users know? Grub, Systemd? What is it?
This is (hopefully) an easy how-to:
https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.c ... html#ID3.1
(item 3.1)
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Faust » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:50 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:26 am
But how? Personally, I find the current interface really simple already....
I'm with you on that one . I could understand the objections if people were talking about Clonezilla .
But just to play Devil's Advocate for second , I can see that there could be some minor improvement.
For example , helping the user to choose the correct destination for the backup ,
but other than it's hard to find fault .

I've happily used Timeshift for years and it has proved it's worth many times , but I've never used it with Mint 19 .
Did anything change significantly after 18.3 ?

I've read that it is more " in your face " now , when doing updates , but that it can be made to shut up very easily .
" And so it goes " - Kurt Vonnegut
The modern reality and the satirical parody are rapidly converging .

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by gm10 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 pm

Faust wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:50 am
Pjotr wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:26 am
But how? Personally, I find the current interface really simple already....
I'm with you on that one .
I could think of a few things, like
  • asking about BTRFS snapshots when there's neither BTRFS filesystem present nor the btrfs-tools even installed,
  • not identifying the storage location by mount point, only by device name,
  • I think some guidance may be needed regarding the schedule (although personally I find it hard to understand why so many users seem confused about that),
  • it needs more explanation about why user folders are excluded by default, that this means user data won't be backed up and why it's probably a bad idea to include it,
  • listing user folders both on the Users tab and on the Filters tab is confusing,
  • the Filters tab isn't really explained at all with pre-defined filters only visible as part of the Summary button,
  • and last but very much not least, non-standard mount points should be filtered by default so users stop filling up their drives with snapshot-ception.
That's just going through the settings. Then there's the thing about the whole concept not being well explained and the web site misstating incremental snapshots, leading users to believe they cannot safely remove old snapshots.

It would be more interesting to hear from the perspective of a non-technical user though, which I am obviously not.
Faust wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:50 am
I've read that it is more " in your face " now , when doing updates , but that it can be made to shut up very easily .
Setting up Timeshift is the first step on the welcome app, and if the user didn't do that then we suggest to them via Update Manager to do so (which can be disabled in the preferences), otherwise there's nothing.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by murray » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:54 pm

smurphos wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:27 am
Personally my circumstances (nothing mission-critical on my machine, middle of the road hardware with no esoteric components, comprehensive backups, and alternative ways of getting things done) and my priorities - security comes first - I will take a performance hit or a risk to stability and have always pretty much ignored the level system and installed all updates with reasonable alacrity. I'm yet to suffer any downtime or any issue that has required a rollback with Timeshift as a result.
This board needs a Like or thumbs-up option. I agree 100% with you, security comes first for me too, even at the risk of a performance hit. Anyone that knowingly chooses to have an insecure system is endangering not only themselves but all other systems that they communicate with. If the devs thought it was worth their time to patch a security hole then I think it's worth my time to install their update.
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Schultz » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:22 pm

murray wrote:
If the devs thought it was worth their time to patch a security hole then I think it's worth my time to install their update.
That makes too much sense for this thread. :wink:

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by murray » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:14 pm

Schultz wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:22 pm
murray wrote:
If the devs thought it was worth their time to patch a security hole then I think it's worth my time to install their update.
That makes too much sense for this thread. :wink:
Sometimes common sense isn't very common... :)
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by zcot » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:32 pm

Maybe we shouldn't be so emotional about something, but maybe we shouldn't frame something in what seems to be an emotionally charging way. :lol:

:wink:

But anyway, I see the whole thing as a good deal because it helps to bring better knowledge about the whole update/regression/fix topic, and it prevents a mass amount of blind faith of users putting the system into a bad or less than preferred place.

And it seems like it's a good thing to approach the whole update topic in a new light since that will bring better realization and handling for all of us.

The obvious easy solution to the whole problem is being able to instantly bring the system back up to the previous state from 5 mins ago, this way we can shift our old deprecated perception about the updating scenario and how we should approach that. It seems like it would be less of an effort to lean toward the snapshot situation than to keep in old habits of perceived fear, or a false sense that someone else is going to make it all perfect all the time and nothing ever goes wrong, or setting a misdirected configuration to mitigate our perception. -none of which put us in a good position to handle a bad update in the first place(or other bad scenarios that don't even involved updates).

Obviously we can all do what we want and there's not a rule that says we have to take updates or even care anything about security exploits, but getting away from the possible bad-update issue and toward setting up for a quick simple restoration has got to be better for everybody regardless, in the end.

Let's try not to stay stuck with old thinking with that blacklist method. That's a great functionality for a certain specific cause, but in this particular case it goes against the obvious purpose of the change to the update system. Shift the focus from the potential of update problems, to the setup and ease of being able to pop right back to where we were in the case of an issue.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by michael louwe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am

zcot wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:32 pm
Shift the focus from the potential of update problems, to the setup and ease of being able to pop right back to where we were in the case of an issue.
.
That is shifting to a false sense of stability because the "ease of being able to pop right back to where we were in the case of an issue" may not be that easy - eg Timeshift and Windows's System Restore have been known to fail to restore sometimes.

There have been reports about buggy updates in Win 10 and Ubuntu/LM bricking a small number of computers(out of many millions) rendering them non-restorable, non-recoverable and useless like a dead brick. Similarly for defective/buggy Takata airbags killing ONLY a small number of people out of billions of drivers/passengers; and the flawed/buggy MCAS in B737-MAX airplanes killing ONLY a small number(= 346) of flyers out of many millions of flyers.
....... Like how a considerate and responsible society has banned the Takata airbags and grounded the B737-MAX airplanes because of *ONLY* a small number of people being killed out of millions/billions, the update policy of installing all updates should be discouraged, if not banned, because of *ONLY* a small number of computers out of many millions being bricked/killed by buggy updates, especially forced auto-updates/upgrades in Win 10.

Buggy updates have also borked a small number of computers, making them non-restorable but recoverable with an OS reinstall, even though the updates did not brick them.

Security with a bricked/dead or regularly borked computer system is no security at all. Personally, I do not feel "secure" blindly installing all updates dished out by the update-software developers which can potentially brick/kill or bork my computer that is owned by me, not by the update-software developers.
....... It is common knowledge that most tech companies and their software developers do not really care about their customers' computers. Heck, customers are just a product and cash-cow to them. They only care about their OS and software, and marketshare.

It all boils down to:
1. which is more important to you, a running computer or installing all updates.?,
2. who do you trust more with your own computer, yourself or OS software developers/tech companies.?
Last edited by michael louwe on Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by smurphos » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:05 am

People dying != a piece of tech being bricked.

No Ubuntu update has permanently bricked a machine to my knowledge in any case - even https://betanews.com/2017/12/21/canonic ... r-laptops/ that you linked earlier which killed the BIOS was recoverable by a fairly simple process - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1734147
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Moem » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:15 am

smurphos wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:05 am
People dying != a piece of tech being bricked.
Exactly. And that is an overdramatic way to talk about changes in software. It's also not productive. So let's instead keep our heads cool.
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by gm10 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:42 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am
2. who do you trust more with your own computer, yourself or OS software developers/tech companies.?
First sensible thing you've said in a while, even though you didn't mean it that way. Easy answer: You should always trust the software developers. They created the operating system you're using, not you. They know more about it than you.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Moem » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:45 am

gm10 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:42 am
Easy answer: You should always trust the software developers. They created the operating system you're using, not you. They know more about it than you.
And if you don't trust them, don't run their operating system.
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by michael louwe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:25 am

smurphos wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:05 am
No Ubuntu update has permanently bricked a machine to my knowledge in any case - even https://betanews.com/2017/12/21/canonic ... r-laptops/ that you linked earlier which killed the BIOS was recoverable by a fairly simple process - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1734147
.
The repair/fix of an already broken BIOS came from Ubuntu more than 1 month after the problem started. It only worked if Ubuntu could still be booted. Seems, it only worked in some Lenovo laptops and not in others, especially in affected Acer, Dell and HP laptops.

The repair is certainly not "a fairly simple process" for a newbie.

.
P S - Since it was a Linux kernel 4.13 bug, other Linux distros were also affected by the broken BIOS problem. Did the same repair/fix from Ubuntu work in other Linux distros.?
Last edited by michael louwe on Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by michael louwe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:44 am

gm10 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:42 am
michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am
2. who do you trust more with your own computer, yourself or OS software developers/tech companies.?
First sensible thing you've said in a while, even though you didn't mean it that way. Easy answer: You should always trust the software developers. They created the operating system you're using, not you. They know more about it than you.
.
When even a Live Ubuntu ISO media can brick certain laptops, it's hard for computer operators/users to fully trust Linux software developers. ...
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... px=MTI4ODQ
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/1040557

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3035682 ... -mint.html - Linux Mint website hacked, ISO downloads replaced with backdoored operating system
How can computer operators/users fully trust LM developers with security when even their own website could be hacked to issue corrupted LM ISOs.?

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Moem » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:08 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:44 am
How can computer operators/users fully trust LM developers with security when even their own website could be hacked to issue corrupted LM ISOs.?
My doctor has had the flu! How can I ever trust her with my health again? :roll:
Well, this is how: because despite the fact that she, too, is human and can get ill, she still knows a whole lot more than I do about health.
Same with the developers for Mint: even though things can go wrong with the software and with the site (VERY different things, of course) they still know a whole lot more than I do about building software that's stable and secure.
So do I trust them fully? No. But I trust them more in that respect than anyone else. As proven by the fact that I'm running Mint. If I trusted someone else more, I'd be running whatever they make.
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by zcot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:22 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 am

.
That is shifting to a false sense of stability because the "ease of being able to pop right back to where we were in the case of an issue" may not be that easy - eg Timeshift and Windows's System Restore have been known to fail to restore sometimes.
Your points are taken, sure.

But we're not in that perfect world, yet.

Is it even possible to achieve? I guess if Mint was based on final Ubuntu LTS versions only(x.04.5), then that alone would at least get closer to perfection eliminating a mass of updates in the first place. -and maybe only build Mint on the last day before EOL? That would be a pretty good system in a theory.. really stable and secure too, but limitation theory though.

Me, I don't take every update, and I don't do it blindly either since we're not in that perfect world yet, and in fact at some times when I've been checking on an update and it said gnome it made me realize that not only do I not need it, but I end up going deeper and purging the packages that it relates to so bonus!

But who couldn't benefit from setting up a safety blanket scenario where you could potentially shift back to a previous snapshot, in any situation? Or, you're saying the Timeshift thing is absolutely useless and just garbageware because nobody should ever have the need to potentially go back or restore?

Anyway, for sure though, you could even just uninstall mintupdate then you don't have to deal with figuring out what not to update.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by michael louwe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:41 am

Moem wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:08 am
michael louwe wrote: ⤴ Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:44 pm

How can computer operators/users fully trust LM developers with security when even their own website could be hacked to issue corrupted LM ISOs.?
My doctor has had the flu! How can I ever trust her with my health again? :roll:
.
No, it's more like a thief broke into the Dr's office, changed the flu medicine to poison and then a few flu patients treated by the Dr died or got hospitalized as a result.

The Dr denied responsibility and washed his/her hands off any liability for the incident. Pity those few who died. Henceforth, should others be wary when going to that Dr's office for treatment.?

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Moem » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:00 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:41 am
The Dr denied responsibility and washed his/her hands off any liability for the incident.
That is not at all similar to what happened when the Mint download page was hacked. The developers took quick action, and certainly did not deny responsibility. Furthermore they took measures to increase security.
But if you don't trust them, that's up to you; it's a wide world full of distros out there.
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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by michael louwe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 am

zcot wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:22 am
Anyway, for sure though, you could even just uninstall mintupdate then you don't have to deal with figuring out what not to update.
.
Quoting gm10:
Still, even if there are potential issues, it's always better to install the updates and handle the fallout later rather than sit on a number of public and open-source security vulnerabilities that anyone can exploit, or critical bugs that can cost you your data (there have been a few in various kernel versions, for example).
And that's really all there is to it. If you cannot accept that simple truth, nobody will force you to install 19.2, plus you can still re-create your beloved levels via the blacklist, so take it or leave it.
.
.
Unfortunately. It's also why we had to remove even the indicative icons of the "levels", which otherwise I would have liked to keep, because the original idea of helping the users with the impact assessment was a good one (although the actual list of packages was always arbitrary and incomplete and would have needed some work if kept). But since unfortunately it has been twisted into a bad practice of blindly not applying updates rather than assess them we had to cut it all out at the root.
The present trend of LM developers is and will be to push LM 18.2 and LM 19.2 (and later) users to blindly install all updates and to do Timeshift snapshot system restore for any buggy update = the "cure is better than prevention" policy. They may even force this trend and policy on the users eventually, ala Win 7/8.1's Patch Rollups or Win 10's forced auto-updates, eg in LM 20.x. It's a "take it or leave it". Some computer operators/users of LM will probably leave.

Remember, the few and rare occasions when buggy updates or ISOs brick computers, the OS software developers are not going to compensate the computer operators/users for their bricked computers and time lost. Hence, it is foolish of computer operators/users to heed the recommendation of Linux developers to blindly install all updates and rely on Timeshift for buggy updates.
....... Many Win 7 users who upgraded to Win 10 Home have regretted their decision and cursed M$ and her developers for bricking their Win 10 computers with forced auto-updates/upgrades. That's all they could do.
Last edited by michael louwe on Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Breaking: Update Manager in 19.2 will no longer feature a protective level system

Post by Pjotr » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:44 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 am
They may even force this trend and policy on the users eventually, ala Win 7/8.1's Patch Rollups or Win 10's forced auto-updates, eg in LM 20.x.
Now that's rather silly to expect. Totally unfounded and highly unlikely. :lol:
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