"Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

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Pjotr
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by Pjotr » Wed May 29, 2019 4:30 am

@Portreve: you can apply these safe speed tweaks:
https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.c ... -mint.html
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by rambo919 » Wed May 29, 2019 8:53 am

Well.... half this thread kinda proves many of his points....

People getting high on old horses and protecting fickle non-maidens.

Is it so hard to think that maybe he simply never thought of checking swappyness because of an (very logical) assumption that it would already have been set to the most optimal level? And then there are insults thrown and his integrity questioned because he claims to actually have gotten libreoffice to load faster? Seems like a bad case of "daddy can't be wrong" syndrome and the kiddies irrationally attacking anyone with criticism.

Context is important here, since he obviously writes about everything and is as such a jack of all trades..... why the expectation that he knows ALL the intimate ins and outs of ALL systems? He has quite clearly shown a openness to learning and admitting his deficiencies or where he was wrong, a level of humility in short supply it seems.

His conclusions were in many cases rather spot on and he never named names, he shone light on semi-systemic community problems and was proven correct by the reactionary scorn in both that and this thread.

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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by gm10 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:53 am
Context is important here, since he obviously writes about everything and is as such a jack of all trades..... why the expectation that he knows ALL the intimate ins and outs of ALL systems? He has quite clearly shown a openness to learning and admitting his deficiencies or where he was wrong, a level of humility in short supply it seems.

His conclusions were in many cases rather spot on and he never named names, he shone light on semi-systemic community problems and was proven correct by the reactionary scorn in both that and this thread.
I will point out that neither of those threads were created by him and he never asked for help here with the issues he claims to be experiencing - instead he chose to attribute them to the distribution as a whole on his blog without (seemingly) further research. It's that part which draws the reaction - and I still stand by mine but disagree about a "semi-systemic community problem", you don't see us blasting users here looking to actually fix their issues.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by rambo919 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:24 am

gm10 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:00 am
I will point out that neither of those threads were created by him and he never asked for help here with the issues he claims to be experiencing - instead he chose to attribute them to the distribution as a whole on his blog without (seemingly) further research. It's that part which draws the reaction - and I still stand by mine but disagree about a "semi-systemic community problem", you don't see us blasting users here looking to actually fix their issues.
True but many responses to him were either "superior snide" or outrightly hostile including accusations of stupidity, hardly signs of good faith. This is easily repeatable and I have witnessed it countless times over the years on this forum.

When he commented on the distribution he did so by focussing on it in isolation which is how anyone would comment on a distro, if you keep shifting blame either up or downstream you are generally being dishonest after a while. He also generally focussed on out of the box comments and his general intended audience might just be non-fiddle users, for those users his comments are completely valid.... even I get nervous as soon as 5 (for the sake of argument) commands are needed to alter something as seemingly simple as a swap file.

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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by gm10 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:42 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:24 am
When he commented on the distribution he did so by focussing on it in isolation which is how anyone would comment on a distro, if you keep shifting blame either up or downstream you are generally being dishonest after a while. He also generally focussed on out of the box comments and his general intended audience might just be non-fiddle users, for those users his comments are completely valid.... even I get nervous as soon as 5 (for the sake of argument) commands are needed to alter something as seemingly simple as a swap file.
And I agree with all of that. "You cannot blame upstream because you chose to use upstream" is something I said more than once to the Mint dev team, and despite clearly not being adverse to tinkering myself, I do have quite strong opinions about how the user experience should be tailored to those that are.

Also I don't judge people for their opinions - my problem with him are only with those statements of alleged fact that clearly don't pass the smell test.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by rambo919 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:48 am

gm10 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 9:42 am
And I agree with all of that. "You cannot blame upstream because you chose to use upstream" is something I said more than once to the Mint dev team, and despite clearly not being adverse to tinkering myself, I do have quite strong opinions about how the user experience should be tailored to those that are.

Also I don't judge people for their opinions - my problem with him are only with those statements of alleged fact that clearly don't pass the smell test.
Fair enough.

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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by oldgranola » Thu May 30, 2019 12:52 pm

I was rather suprised by his blog complaining about cinnamon and libraoffice performance in 19.1. I felt 19.0 was mostly an upgrade from 17.3 and that 19.1 was far better than 19.0. Definitely better and snappier. Perhaps gm10's comments are appropriate in my case in that with decent memory, mb, disk space such issues aren't seen and no swap tweaks needed. I currently have LM19.1 cinnamon on two home computers+ xfce on one, two at work, several on friends computers with various desktops and I don't find it subjectively slower than windows7 or 10 where I can compare on same hardware via dual boot or just similar hardware. So I wonder if the author was just piling onto Clem's blog about open software from last month. It really didn't come across as correct at all. So it kind of pissed me off too

I am a lot better at ms office apps than libra so I do prefer office but thats a separate thing.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by gm10 » Thu May 30, 2019 1:16 pm

oldgranola wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:52 pm
I am a lot better at ms office apps than libra so I do prefer office but thats a separate thing.
If you don't mind Chinese closed-source software then take a look at https://www.wps.com/office/linux/, you'll feel right at home.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by farkas » Thu May 30, 2019 8:56 pm

My two cents worth on this subject.
I don't think there is a perfect OS or desktop GUI for everyone. All have trade offs which users will have to make. I chose Linux Mint after windows discontinued support for win95. For myself it was the easiest way to transition to the linux environment. I haven't looked back.
Had some hiccups getting started and some even now. All have been solved with the generous time and effort given by responders in LM forums. A thank you to all of them! There were no remarks about how simple or dumb my questions may be, just helpful and considerate answers.

As for boot and application load times it has a lot to do with the pc's hardware. In my case I upgraded my laptop recently by replacing existing HDD with an SSD. After a fresh install of Mint 19.1, with no special tweaks or tricks, my boot time dropped to about 30 seconds from over two minutes. Loading apps is almost instantaneous, even libre office is loaded in a couple of seconds. The only ones that seem slow are the ones that have to connect to the internet (Firefox, Thunderbird, etc.). I attribute that to my DSL connection, which is slow by current standards. However it is lightning fast compared to the 28.8k (3200 baud) modem I started with. That required installation of a second phone line to use it and have a voice conversation at the same time.

This maybe very simplistic. Choosing one OS or another is like buying a car. The first thing you see is the body style and color then you figure out what's under the hood. You can add fancy trim to the body and modify the engine to suit your needs. Its the same with most OSs on first boot, the first thing you see on first boot is the GUI, then you have to see what makes it run. I suppose for some the GUI is enough to settle for a particular OS. It might be the prettiest one for one person or the ugliest in the world for another. Ultimately it comes down to the users choice.

Fortunately in linux it won't cost you anything, other then time and effort, to figure out the trade off between how pretty it is and how well the code under it works for you.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by oldgranola » Thu May 30, 2019 9:56 pm

gm10 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:16 pm
oldgranola wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:52 pm
I am a lot better at ms office apps than libra so I do prefer office but thats a separate thing.
If you don't mind Chinese closed-source software then take a look at https://www.wps.com/office/linux/, you'll feel right at home.
Thanks! I'll check it out
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by rambo919 » Fri May 31, 2019 5:57 am

you guys are gonna love this one, this is what actual negativity looks like

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/sc ... int-to-go/

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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by curtvaughan » Fri May 31, 2019 6:52 pm

Wow. From announcing the demise of Antergos and Scientific Linux distributions, very narrowly aimed at two different niches of Linux users - users wanting a simple install process for Arch (Antergos), or users wanting a straight-forward Linux foundation for scientific applications - he waxes on a similar future awaiting Mint, sparing Ubuntu as being "too big to fail" to suffer a similar fate. As evidence, he proffers comments by Clem L. in the March newsletter. Simply, wow. If anything, he makes it apparent that developers behind major desktop distributions such as Mint or Ubuntu have a significant following when they make public pronouncements, and they need to be careful in that regard. To an even higher level, Linus himself has been bitten by his penchant for going public with negative pronouncements. I'm reminded of the old "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen" adverts from the past.

On the other side of the coin, everyday users of forums need to be careful of expressing overly emotional vitriol toward highly followed tech writers. Those writers have a relatively large following among computer users, and the writers' reactions to your commentary will get a lot larger following than you may have anticipated. That, indeed, has happened in this case. The net resulting publicity afforded Mint is undeservedly and unnecessarily negative, particularly since Mint forums have a stellar reputation for being helpful to both novice and expert participants. Okay, back to lurking.
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Re: "Linux Mint Turns Cinnamon Experience Bittersweet"

Post by curtvaughan » Fri May 31, 2019 7:20 pm

An addendum, just found this on youtube from Joe Collins, in regard to Mint. Interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szDHAeaqJD8
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