Richard Stallman Gnu Fsf compliant respective Mint?

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linuxtothebone
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Richard Stallman Gnu Fsf compliant respective Mint?

Post by linuxtothebone » Mon May 27, 2019 8:19 am

Hi there

Does anyone know if a fsf qualifying version of mint can be achieved?

I joined Linux based on the philosophies of the fsf long before I even knew about the organisation.

I really enjoy mint and have used it exclusively as my go to for about ten years or more.

If it would be possible to have a version that embodies these standards that would be excellent. As time Goes by the violation of our freedoms in the digital realm are abundantly clear.

Surely we all want freedom... True freedom to express and develop true human potential.

I see this as a step toward that goal.

If this hasn't been a suggested request before in the mint community maybe this could prompt such.

Also I would like to thank Clement Lefebvre for all the hard work and congratulate on the success of furthering the Linux user base

Peace
Last edited by karlchen on Wed May 29, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title: typing error corrected

rene
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by rene » Mon May 27, 2019 10:42 am

linuxtothebone wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:19 am
I joined Linux [ ... ]
Ouch. If you're fast I'm sure you can still get back your membership fees (I advise the boyscouts instead).

linuxtothebone
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by linuxtothebone » Mon May 27, 2019 12:33 pm

I don't understand what you mean?

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by gm10 » Mon May 27, 2019 12:45 pm

Out of the box Mint is certainly not compliant, nor is Linux in general for the reference kernel from kernel.org does already not comply with Stallman's principles. So as rene said, best get back your membership fees, you joined the wrong cult. :lol:

Whether you can compile your own version of Linux Mint that does comply and still runs on your hardware, who knows, good luck.
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by linuxtothebone » Mon May 27, 2019 1:35 pm

Thanks for your answer.

I'm aware mint at this stage isn't compliant though was not sure whether the potential for free as in freedom had ever before been considered achievable with the mint user space.

Many people clearly value the mint desktop. Wouldn't it be a good idea to be able to provide a version that embodies the underlying fundamentals of why people choose to defect from the mainstream vendor lock in options and install Linux instead.

I thought it may help further the understanding and give more awareness of how the two dominant commercial systems available, exploit and restrict the development of software and hardware, and make the differences in regards to benefits leaving those models behind clearer to the general user.

Unfortunately I don't have experience in compiling, and am time restricted at this point in regards to learning how. I would otherwise be happy to help.

Does the fsf recommended OS list use only a gnu kernel? I thought the kernel could be considered gnu+Linux due in part to the c compiler stallman made that Linus uses in his kernel development.

I thought the kernel did not use propriety software otherwise how can it have a GPL open source license. Though as you said the current kernel doesn't comply.

I'm interested in a secure un raped tech platform as much as possible, which I thought at least on the software side, would be relatively achievable with Linux

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by mediclaser » Mon May 27, 2019 2:17 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:45 pm
Out of the box Mint is certainly not compliant, nor is Linux in general for the reference kernel from kernel.org does already not comply with Stallman's principles...
How about Debian (the official version)? Since there is Debian version which includes "non-free" software, I've been in the impression that the official version is compliant to the principle of FSF. Is that correct?

I don't know if the OP would care about Debian, but I thought I have to ask this to understand this subject better.
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by gm10 » Mon May 27, 2019 2:33 pm

linuxtothebone wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:35 pm
Wouldn't it be a good idea to be able to provide a version that embodies the underlying fundamentals of why people choose to defect from the mainstream vendor lock in options and install Linux instead.
https://www.linuxmint.com/faq.php
What about proprietary software?

Linux Mint does not support any political or ideological stance against any software programs or editors no matter what license they use. With that said, most if not all (depending on the edition) software used in Linux Mint is Free and Open Source. We believe in Open Source as a choice, not as a constraint. We think it makes sense to share code, to credit the technology we use, to let people help us, to allow others to build upon what we are making and to enable progress in general. We also enjoy sharing with the community, so we license our software under the GPL and the vast majority of components we use are Free and Open Source.
Nothing else worth saying on the topic.
mediclaser wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:17 pm
How about Debian (the official version)? Since there is Debian version which includes "non-free" software, I've been in the impression that the official version is compliant to the principle of FSF. Is that correct?
No.

You guys are looking for something like https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by linuxtothebone » Mon May 27, 2019 9:44 pm

Thanks for your suggestions

Yes the link https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/ you provided to the fsf is what I'm taking about.

Particularly the statement "essential freedoms"

Propriety/non free software has no obligation to be transparent. Lack of that could mean compromised systems or data.

Personally I don't wish my intellectual property/personal private information to be used by people I do not know for purposes I also do not know.

I can't think why of free and informed choice, anyone would want that.

As far as Linux/fsf etc... I had generally been under the impression I was not being exploited and most likely aren't in the way other propriety systems do.

I suppose malware can be open source and freely available too, though counter to the supposition that open source infers non exploitive ethics.

Is it really that difficult to replace the mint kernel?

If there really is non free software in the Linux kernel why are we using that kernel? Shouldn't potentially compromised systems be an opt in, not default or embedded arrangements?

The fsf/GNU provides a list https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html of distros that work with the non propriety Linux kernel called GNU Linux libre.

They seem like functional systems though I have not tested them yet

Also I may have read somewhere that the .deb software packages comply with fsf so using them would be OK. So maybe the guy recommended switching to Debian was not all wrong?

Thanks everyone

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by smurphos » Tue May 28, 2019 12:21 am

linuxtothebone wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Also I may have read somewhere that the .deb software packages comply with fsf so using them would be OK. So maybe the guy recommended switching to Debian was not all wrong?

Thanks everyone
.deb is nothing other than a packaging format, and doesn't imply anything about the compliance or not of the software contained within any particular deb file. There's plenty of non-free software distributed in .deb format.
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by lsemmens » Tue May 28, 2019 12:46 am

The issue may not be so much the software being compliant, but the hardware! Until that is truly free - in the open source sense, then software must, of necessity address those closed ecosystems.
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by michael louwe » Tue May 28, 2019 2:55 am

linuxtothebone wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:44 pm
Is it really that difficult to replace the mint kernel?
.
Richard Stallman started the GNU Project in 1983 and the Free Software Foundation(FSF) in 1985. Unfortunately, software runs on hardware and since the 1970s, most computer hardware companies used the for-profit business model = proprietary/closed-source firmware and software for their hardware, eg firmware for motherboard BIOS/UEFI and software drivers for Intel CPUs and GPUs. It is always costly to produce computer hardware, OTOH software can be produced for free, except for time and effort expended. Hence, Linus Torvald's 1992 Linux Kernel Project included non-free or proprietary/closed-source software and firmware from hardware OEMs.
....... Richard Stallman had to integrate Linus's Linux kernel into GNU because he had no other viable choice that was completely free of proprietary/closed-source software = GNU/Linux --> Linux. Otherwise, GNU/Linux distros would not be able to take off, eg Debian and Archlinux.

So, it is quite impossible for any Linux distro to be completely free of non-free or proprietary/closed- source software/firmware for computer hardware, unless the Linux community or FSF also manufacture their own computer hardware.
....... It would be utopia for everyone to get free Linux computers from FSF.*sarcasm*
.

P S - It is dishonesty for some Linux distros to use the Linux kernel that has non-free software but refuse to use non-free multi-media codecs, Wifi drivers, graphics drivers and other non-free 3rd-party software that have been freely licensed to Linux, eg LM 18 and later. LM 17 and earlier installed such non-free 3rd-party software by default.

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by Portreve » Tue May 28, 2019 7:32 pm

Well, you can try out PureOS, which is a FSF-endorsed GNU+Linux distro.

I wanted to try it myself but it appears it's got issues with support for UEFI, which basically rules it out for use on my MacBook Pro.

There's a line from the movie Bulletproof Monk: “Water which is too pure has no fish.”

The problem generally is most hardware is not so star-spangled awesome that a purely "free software" distro will fully support it. So, good luck with your quest, but I would suggest striking a more realistic balance: stick with strictly libre end-user software and libre software for as much of the installed OS as possible, and bow to the needs of the situation for those bits of hardware you can't support any other way.

P.S.: Richard Stallman is my homeboy. I'm 100% on board with his vision of software and, for that matter, humanity and governance.
I'm so down wit' dat', yo, dass ich unter dem Beton bin.

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by Dot_mdb » Tue May 28, 2019 11:27 pm

Computers are tools. You use tools to get work done. I think it is possible to get too philosophical about the whole thing.

Bill

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by michael louwe » Wed May 29, 2019 1:45 am

Dot_mdb wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:27 pm
Computers are tools. You use tools to get work done.
.
Yes, agree, and because of some Linux purist developers' insistence on libre software or fsf, some tools or hardware in computers do not work out-of-the-box in Linux = stumping some newbies who will often run back to the more workable Windows, eg the Linux purists' rejection of non-free or proprietary/closed-source firmware for Broadcom Wifi adapters. .......
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Br ... stallation
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wi ... ice_driver

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by smurphos » Wed May 29, 2019 2:15 am

michael louwe wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:55 am
P S - It is dishonesty for some Linux distros to use the Linux kernel that has non-free software but refuse to use non-free multi-media codecs, Wifi drivers, graphics drivers and other non-free 3rd-party software that have been freely licensed to Linux, eg LM 18 and later. LM 17 and earlier installed such non-free 3rd-party software by default.
It's not dishonesty, it's pragmatism. In 17.x the Mint team had to produce separate ISOs sans non-free codecs for OEM's to use to preinstall Mint on machines for sale. Why? Because in some jurisdictions selling machines with these non-free codecs pre-installed would leave the OEM liable to litigation and/or license fees. They made a decision with 18 onwards not to include the non-free codecs in the image, but give end-users doing a regular install the option of downloading and installing them which allowed them to supply a single image for both regular and OEM installs.
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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by michael louwe » Wed May 29, 2019 3:27 am

smurphos wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 2:15 am
They made a decision with 18 onwards not to include the non-free codecs in the image, but give end-users doing a regular install the option of downloading and installing them which allowed them to supply a single image for both regular and OEM installs.
.
That's reasonable wrt non-free codecs, but why also exclude non-free Wifi, graphics and other 3rd-party software that have been freely or openly licensed.? Some of these exclusions are done by the upstream Linux kernel team.

Users usually have no problem with non-free Wifi, graphics and other 3rd-party software when they install Windows, eg Broadcom Wifi adapters work out-of-the-box. Broadcom Wifi supports both modern Windows and Linux. Why is Linux so different in this respect.?

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by Faust » Wed May 29, 2019 4:33 am

Portreve wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:32 pm
....
.....
P.S.: Richard Stallman is my homeboy. I'm 100% on board with his vision of software and, for that matter, humanity and governance.
I am also a fan of the old curmudgeon .
He has done pioneering work , going back to his early days at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory .

I saw an interview a few years ago where he said that he will only use Trisquel Linux .
It seems that it's a good fit with his highly stringent requirements - 8)
" And so it goes " - Kurt Vonnegut
The modern reality and the satirical parody are rapidly converging .

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by rambo919 » Wed May 29, 2019 8:57 am

Faust wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:33 am
I am also a fan of the old curmudgeon .
He has done pioneering work , going back to his early days at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory .
He might be a bit nutty but he's our nut and his heart has always been in the right place.... just don't tie me down and make me listen to him sing there will be violence.

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by Hoser Rob » Wed May 29, 2019 9:08 am

Debian may be your best choice but it's not for newbies.

I actually don't think a 100% FOSS setup is fwasible, the HTML5 standard has DRM embedded, and that's closed b y definition.

And I think Stallman is a moron myself.

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Re: Richard Stallnman Gnu Fsf compliant respective mint?

Post by gm10 » Wed May 29, 2019 9:46 am

As to Stallman, I doubt that without the movement he spearheaded, and resulting from than probably more than anything the GPL licenses, we'd have the free software ecosystem that we do today. You cannot thank the man enough for that. I think this statement was on point:
rambo919 wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 8:57 am
He might be a bit nutty but he's our nut and his heart has always been in the right place....
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