Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

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MurphCID
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Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:50 am

Since 5.0 series Kernels show in Mint update, is it dangerous to use these Kernels rather than the 4.15 lts kernel? What advantages are there with the 5.0 series kernel?

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by Moem » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:55 am

The answers to these questions fully depend on your specific hardware. But keep in mind that, as I'm sure you know, kernel upgrades are usually easy to roll back.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:31 am

Moem wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:55 am
The answers to these questions fully depend on your specific hardware. But keep in mind that, as I'm sure you know, kernel upgrades are usually easy to roll back.
I am not sure what specifically would be an advantage of upgrading Kernels? My laptop is from 2017/2018 and runs fine. So I am not really sure as to the benefits of the 5.0 series?

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by Moem » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:15 am

If there is no problem to solve, there will most likely not be a benefit. Examples of problems to solve could be: vulnerabilities that are patched in newer kernels, hardware that needs the drivers that are built into a newer kernel.
If all is working as you want it to work, it's fine to stick with an older but supported kernel.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:26 am

MurphCID wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:31 am
Moem wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:55 am
The answers to these questions fully depend on your specific hardware. But keep in mind that, as I'm sure you know, kernel upgrades are usually easy to roll back.
I am not sure what specifically would be an advantage of upgrading Kernels? My laptop is from 2017/2018 and runs fine. So I am not really sure as to the benefits of the 5.0 series?
It really depends on your hardware. For example, there have been great improvement's to AMDGPU, the open source AMD driver in the kernel. Power management efficiency was greatly improved for a number of platforms in 4.17. If you're using F2FS on your SSD then that's a good reason to upgrade, too, lots of good changes to that. And so on. There's a ton of things that change every series, impossible to give you a summary that's relevant to you. If you don't know and don't care to keep up to date on kernel development I'd go with Moem's advice and just stick to the default kernel.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by JeremyB » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:35 am

There might be issues with the 5.0 kernels as the Ubuntu 18.04.3 point release was delayed a week

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by phd21 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 pm

Hi MurphCID,

I just read your post and the good replies to it. Here are my thoughts on this as well.

As has been stated, updating to a Linux Kernal v5 or newer is mostly for various hardware improvements and possibly some security issues. People using newer computer hardware may benefit a lot from these newer Linux Kernels and might not. But, installing newer Linux Kernels cannot be "dangerous" or "hurt" your system because if it does not work better or not at all, you can simply restart your computer and boot into your advanced options and select the previous Linux Kernel you were using and remove the new Linux Kernel if you want.

Some computer hardware like certain WiFi network adapters require installing drivers that will only work with certain Linux Kernels, so if you upgrade to a newer Linux Kernel, those might not work now. But, you can just reboot to your previous Linux Kernel.

I am currently using Linux Kernal 5.1.6 LL on my ancient underpowered computer and everything is working well. I did have to recompile drivers for my one low-cost (cheap) non-plug-n-play WiFi adapter to get it to work with the newer Linux kernel; fortunately, drivers were available that worked for the newer Linux Kernel and this particular WiFi adapter's chipset.

Linux Kernel 5.0 Released! Check Out The New Features
https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5/

Linux Kernel 5.0 Released ; Definitive Guide to New Features & Changes
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/linux-kernel-5-0-released

Linux Kernel 5.0 Released, This is What's New - OMG! Ubuntu!
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/03/lin ... -whats-new

Linux Kernel 5.2 Released, This is What's New - OMG! Ubuntu!
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/07/lin ... l-features
Linux Kernel 5.2 Released wrote:First, Logitech has helped to improve the drivers for its various wireless receivers such as the Logitech Bluetooth dongle used with the MX5500 keyboard, the Logitech S510 remote, and the multi-purpose Logitech Unifying receiver.

Additionally, if you have any Logitech 2.4GHz peripherals (mice, keyboard, etc) laying around you’ll be pleased to hear that they can now relay battery status (where applicable) for use in desktop GUIs, etc.

Another notable inclusion sure to benefit Linux users is the new Realtek Wi-Fi driver (RTW88). This 802.11ac wireless driver supports RTL8822BE and RTL8822CE chipsets in this release, with support for USB and SDIO models planned for the near future.
Update: I just installed Linux Kernel 5.2.4 LL because I do use Logitech wireless keyboard and mice and all is working well, except my one low-cost non-plug-n-play WiFi adapter did not automatically rebuild (recompile) for the new Kernel even though I used DKMS to install the driver?

Hope this helps ...
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:55 pm

phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 pm
Update: I just installed Linux Kernel 5.2.4 LL
Why not the current version?

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Unless LL is not = -lowlatency, in which case I'd be interested in hearing what kernel you are running.

Ubuntu 19.10 Eoan has 5.2 kernels, by the way, you could try one of those, maybe it supports your hardware out of the box. Although usually the DKMS rebuild shouldn't be a problem.
Last edited by gm10 on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by phd21 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:24 pm

Hi gm10,

Thanks for your reply.

The reason I chose Kernel 5.2.4 was totally arbitrary on my part and that I don't like to pick the newest Kernel just in case there might be something wrong where they have not yet had any feedback.

And, LL does = Low-Latency. I have been using "ubuntu-mainline-kernel.sh" for updating my Linux Kernels because I can easily install various kernel options like "low-latency" kernels.

"ubuntu-mainline-kernel.sh": Bash script for Ubuntu (and derivatives) to easily (un)install kernels from the Ubuntu Kernel PPA
https://github.com/pimlie/ubuntu-mainline-kernel.sh


I dual-boot Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.1 and Linux KDE Neon user edition both of which are based on Ubuntu 18.04, so most things that I do work on both systems without issues.

The reason my one non-plug-n-play WiFi adapter did not automatically update with the installation of the newer 5.2.4 Kernel using DKMS is that their source code has not yet been updated to work with this new 5.2 kernel series yet although it worked great with 5.1 Kernel series. I already put in a request at their GitHub website. But, I still have my Kernel 5.1.6 installed, so I can reboot and simply select that Kernel to use that WiFI adapter when I want. I also thought that maybe the newer Kernel may have built-in recognition (plug-n-play) for this particular USB WiFi adapter now without installing or updating any drivers, but that does not seem to be the case with this adapter.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:58 pm

phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:24 pm
"ubuntu-mainline-kernel.sh": Bash script for Ubuntu (and derivatives) to easily (un)install kernels from the Ubuntu Kernel PPA
https://github.com/pimlie/ubuntu-mainline-kernel.sh
That looks very nice, hadn't seen that one before. I suppose it's obvious what I am using.
phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:24 pm
I also thought that maybe the newer Kernel may have built-in recognition (plug-n-play) for this particular USB WiFi adapter now without installing or updating any drivers, but that does not seem to be the case with this adapter.
Well, mainline kernels do have significantly less hardware hardware support than Ubuntu kernels because Ubuntu adds in the unstable driver tree plus a couple of other drivers. That's why I said you might get lucky with Ubuntu's 5.2.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by phd21 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:27 pm

Hi gm10,

Yeah, I really like that script to update Linux Kernels and understand that it may not be as good as using the Mint Update Manager. But, as far as I know, you cannot install low-latency kernels through the Mint Update Manager or KDE's Discover Update Manager.

Also, Linux Kernel 5.2.4 is working very well on my ancient underpowered computer hardware, and the non-plug-n-play WiFI adapter does work now. I had used their WiFi driver from May 8, 2019 and they updated it at the end of May. So, I removed the older one from the Kernel DKMS and added the new one, but it did not update my other installed Kernels?

FYI: This is the link to my post on updating this particular WiFi adapter's driver for various kernels
Thank you for this driver, please update this for Linux Kernel 5.2 series. · Issue #77 · lwfinger/rtl8192du
https://github.com/lwfinger/rtl8192du/issues/77
.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:35 pm

phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:27 pm
Yeah, I really like that script to update Linux Kernels and understand that it may not be as good as using the Mint Update Manager. But, as far as I know, you cannot install low-latency kernels through the Mint Update Manager or KDE's Discover Update Manager.
Mint's official Update Manager cannot install or update mainline kernels, I thought you knew I got my own version of it available via my PPA. That one can do mainline and of course also lowlatency, among other things:

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Last edited by gm10 on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by michael louwe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:39 pm

phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 pm
But, installing newer Linux Kernels cannot be "dangerous" or "hurt" your system because if it does not work better or not at all, you can simply restart your computer and boot into your advanced options and select the previous Linux Kernel you were using and remove the new Linux Kernel if you want.
That non-danger or non-hurt and simpleness mostly apply for techgeeks only, not for noobs and average users. Similarly, it is not simple for noobs to do a Timeshift recovery after a dangerous/buggy kernel update with LM 18.2-19.2. It is also not simple for noobs to set up Timeshift properly for first use, ie away from its default settings which can be dangerous.

Is LM developed for techgeeks only, like "mainline" noob-unfriendly Debian and Archlinux.?

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by JeremyB » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:09 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:39 pm
phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 pm
But, installing newer Linux Kernels cannot be "dangerous" or "hurt" your system because if it does not work better or not at all, you can simply restart your computer and boot into your advanced options and select the previous Linux Kernel you were using and remove the new Linux Kernel if you want.
That non-danger or non-hurt and simpleness mostly apply for techgeeks only, not for noobs and average users. Similarly, it is not simple for noobs to do a Timeshift recovery after a dangerous/buggy kernel update with LM 18.2-19.2. It is also not simple for noobs to set up Timeshift properly for first use, ie away from its default settings which can be dangerous.

Is LM developed for techgeeks only, like "mainline" noob-unfriendly Debian and Archlinux.?
Linux Mint is not developed for techno geeks only. I would say if the 4.15 kernel that is installed with the versions of Mint 19 work fine, there is no reason to upgrade to a newer kernel, the 4.15 kernel will receive security updates until 2023. The 5.0 kernels available in the Update Manager will not be supported after January 2020- I don't remember the exact date

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by michael louwe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:34 pm

JeremyB wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:09 pm
michael louwe wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:39 pm
phd21 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 pm
But, installing newer Linux Kernels cannot be "dangerous" or "hurt" your system because if it does not work better or not at all, you can simply restart your computer and boot into your advanced options and select the previous Linux Kernel you were using and remove the new Linux Kernel if you want.
That non-danger or non-hurt and simpleness mostly apply for techgeeks only, not for noobs and average users. Similarly, it is not simple for noobs to do a Timeshift recovery after a dangerous/buggy kernel update with LM 18.2-19.2. It is also not simple for noobs to set up Timeshift properly for first use, ie away from its default settings which can be dangerous.

Is LM developed for techgeeks only, like "mainline" noob-unfriendly Debian and Archlinux.?
Linux Mint is not developed for techno geeks only. I would say if the 4.15 kernel that is installed with the versions of Mint 19 work fine, there is no reason to upgrade to a newer kernel, the 4.15 kernel will receive security updates until 2023. The 5.0 kernels available in the Update Manager will not be supported after January 2020- I don't remember the exact date
It begs the question why the default setting for Update Manager in LM 18.2(.?) or after was changed to install all updates, including non-essential dangerous/sensitive Linux kernel upgrades, when applied, and the Levels designation for dangerous/sensitive updates were removed in LM 19.2.?
....... In LM 18.1 or earlier, the default setting only installed Level 1 to 3 updates when applied, ie Level 4 to 5 updates were not installed.

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by smurphos » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:50 pm

Michael I thought you were off enjoying your weekend and not pestering us with your trollish nonsense.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by michael louwe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:39 pm

smurphos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:50 pm
Michael I thought you were off enjoying your weekend and not pestering us with your trollish nonsense.
smurphos why didn't you say the same thing to gm10 and not pester us with your trollish nonsense.? Afterall, gm10 is the one who set the precedent by posting on this thread before me.

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by smurphos » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:46 pm

Because gm10's posts are generally useful and informative. Yours are neither.
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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by michael louwe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:06 pm

smurphos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:46 pm
Because gm10's posts are generally useful and informative. Yours are neither.
That's just another of your trollish nonsense.
....... Isn't it discriminatory and noob-unfriendly for you to seem to say that only those whose posts are generally useful and informative can change their minds or go back on their words, eg of getting to their weekend instead of making further forums.linuxmint posts.?
. by Grarea » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:19 pm
michael louwe wrote: ⤴
Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:17 pm
AFAIK: .......

For this, we need to know the beginning or history of the "free-of-charge" Mobile OSes for smartphones(= can also surf the web or Internet) with touchscreens in the mid-2000s. In comparison, Desktop OSes can only surf the web = cannot make normal cellular voice calls/SMS and normally do not use touchscreens.
<snipped>
Fantastic.
Thank you very much for taking the time to write that out.
Interesting stuff.
I shall also forward that on to someone who I was bumbling around explaining it to earlier..
.
.

You are missing the main point of my question of why you didn't say the same thing to gm10, .......
by gm10 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:48 pm
michael louwe wrote: ⤴
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:44 pm

Nota Bene

If you wish to install the traditional deb package, it is available as usual via APT, with all security and critical bug fixes.
Nota bene your own quotes I'd say. :roll:

You're boring me, usually you do at least have some grasp on reality which you then try to twist, but here you're just flailing in the wind with nothing to hold on to. Let's leave it at that, gotta get to my weekend, anyway. Cheerio, good sir.. .

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Re: Kernel 5.0 is it dangerous to upgrade?

Post by thx-1138 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:35 pm

smurphos wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:46 pm
....enjoying your weekend...
...after his superlative insight / comment that 'C.......l must die!' in the i386/Valve thread,
(it's got edited / removed afterwards), i decided to enable the one-stop solution...
Works on weekends and not only :)

JeremyB: ...a 5.0.x kernel would have helped immensely people who are not 'techno geeks',
and own hardware released from around mid-2018...especially AMD ones.
Quite a few recurring issues of very similar nature regarding such in the forums...
I'd expect that it's especially the not 'techno geeks' who got their hardware in the meanwhile,
(no, not referring to just a few months ago obviously,
4.15 was released in January '18 after all - that's 1.5 yrs ago),
that might possibly getting disappointed, if right out on first impression,
Mint gives them a hard time installing and/or further configuring it...
Hopefully i'm proven wrong on that.

MurphCID:...always try avoiding unsupported kernels (mainline), certainly do avoid cutting-edge latest ones.
There were filesystem corruption-related issues with both early revisions of 4.19.x & 5.1.x as well as a mere example.
Staying at least a couple of versions earlier certainly minimizes the chances of hitting serious yet unknown bugs.

phd21:...you're playing with fire me thinks... :)

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