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Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:03 am
by bob466
As we know you should never Defrag an SSD and since Linux doesn't throw files all over the place like Windoze does...you never need to Defrag your Linux System. :D

However Windoze has Auto-Defrag Enabled by default and it you Dual Boot and don't Disable Auto-Defrag...you'd better start saving for a new SSD. :( :shock:

I don't Dual Boot but I have a Windoze 7 Virtual Machine and one of the first things I did when I switched to an SSD was to Disable Auto-Defrag even thought my VM is a file and not a Partition...I didn't want to take the risk. Image

I haven't seen this mentioned on the Forum...so I thought I would as it's important...hope this helps. Image

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:38 am
by catweazel
bob466 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:03 am
As we know you should never Defrag an SSD and since Linux doesn't throw files all over the place like Windoze does...you never need to Defrag your Linux System. :D

However Windoze has Auto-Defrag Enabled by default and it you Dual Boot and don't Disable Auto-Defrag...you'd better start saving for a new SSD. :( :shock:
FUD.

Windwoes 7 generally correctly identifies SSDs and turns off defragmentation for those drives. There are however exceptions to correctly identifying that a device is an SSD, so it makes sense to check that defragmentation is off for a particular SSD. Furthermore disabling auto-defrag disables it for all attached drives.

It is not true in most cases that "Windoze has Auto-Defrag Enabled by default and it you Dual Boot and don't Disable Auto-Defrag...you'd better start saving for a new SSD."

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:34 am
by bob466
catweazel wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:38 am
FUD.

Windwoes 7 generally correctly identifies SSDs and turns off defragmentation for those drives. There are however exceptions to correctly identifying that a device is an SSD, so it makes sense to check that defragmentation is off for a particular SSD. Furthermore disabling auto-defrag disables it for all attached drives.

It is not true in most cases that "Windoze has Auto-Defrag Enabled by default and it you Dual Boot and don't Disable Auto-Defrag...you'd better start saving for a new SSD."
Not wanting to start an argument but...
https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRealA ... urSSD.aspx
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/defr ... ve-windows
https://superuser.com/questions/1210453 ... gmentation

Leaving Auto-Defrag Enabled is to do so at your own Risk. :(

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:40 am
by catweazel
bob466 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:34 am
Not wanting to start an argument but...
Of course not.

From the first link, "It turns out that the answer is more nuanced than just yes or no...", which is precisely the intent of my statements above. Additionally, Windwoes will defragment a SSD if volume snapshots are turned on... "This is by design and necessary due to..."

OOPSIES!

From the second link, "So with SSDs, just let Windows do its thing and don't worry about defragmentation."

OOPSIES!

And the third link also echoes what I wrote, "however exceptions to correctly identifying that a device is an SSD".

Did you read those links before you posted them?

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:33 am
by Pjotr
catweazel, you grumpy young man.... :lol:

To quote yourself:
Windows 7 generally correctly identifies SSDs and turns off defragmentation for those drives. There are however exceptions to correctly identifying that a device is an SSD, so it makes sense to check that defragmentation is off for a particular SSD.
So: thank you bob466, for reminding us that it makes sense to always disable auto-defrag in Windows 7, probably even in a VM. I hadn't thought of disabling it in my Windows 7 VM, so I'm going to do that right away.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:34 am
by athi
With TRIM and wear levelling algorithm, which monitor write/erase operations to even out wear on the cells, automatic defrag is a minor issue. This is stated in the conclusion of the first article provided by bob466.
Conclusion

No, Windows is not foolishly or blindly running a defrag on your SSD every night, and no, Windows defrag isn't shortening the life of your SSD unnecessarily. Modern SSDs don't work the same way that we are used to with traditional hard drives.

Yes, your SSD's file system sometimes needs a kind of defragmentation and that's handled by Windows, monthly by default, when appropriate. The intent is to maximize performance and a long life. If you disable defragmentation completely, you are taking a risk that your filesystem metadata could reach maximum fragmentation and get you potentially in trouble.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:22 pm
by sphyrth
You see, bob466, we're past the Negative Arguments Era ("I am a Linux user because I hate Windows."). We're already in the Positive Arguments Era ("I am a Linux user because <insert distro> has all the things I need to get my job done. This is why you're getting these replies. As much as possible we don't use propaganda language anymore, not being afraid of looking at Windows' TRUE strengths and weaknesses.

Even if we assume that Windows doesn't automatically differentiate SSD and HDD, we generally couldn't care less. If we can live with our distro's shortcomings, then you can expect Windows users putting up with its shortcomings... even in Dual Boot situations. It's a user preference issue after all.

Given all that, I got 3 Major Issues that make me stay away from Windows 10, the Big 3 that I believe Microsoft can't get rid of (this is my own tinfoil hat, so you can call me out on hypocrisy regarding this :) ):
  1. Cortana
  2. Telemetry
  3. Forced Updates

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:45 am
by bob466
What have we learnt...in Windoze 7 to 10 Auto-Defrag is enabled by default and will defrag your SSD once a month if not disabled (nearly what I said). In one Link We're told don't worry about it because it will extend the life of the SSD. :lol: :lol: :lol:

At the end of the day...people can believe and do whatever they like...it's their SSD. Image :(

As for me I want my SSD to last a long time...that's why I followed Pjotr's excellent guide...Optimizing your SSD for long life. Image :D :D

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 pm
by ZakGordon
What about if you dual-boot with each OS on it's own SSD?

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:47 pm
by Rocky Bennett
To the OP, You might have some mis-conceptions about SSDs. I have been using the same SSD for a dual boot since 2014, that seems like plenty of longevity to me. Most of my SSDs I bought between 2014 and 2016 and I have never had any kind of failure with an SSD. Every SSD that I have ever installed seems robust and trouble free.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 pm
by Portreve
Y'know, this reminds me of a song...

Strummin' my bytes with its fingers
Singin' my files with its I/O
Killing me softly with defrag
Killing me softly with defrag, wasting my whole life
With its writes, killing me softly with defrag.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:26 pm
by Pjotr
Portreve wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 pm
Y'know, this reminds me of a song...

Strummin' my bytes with its fingers
Singin' my files with its I/O
Killing me softly with defrag
Killing me softly with defrag, wasting my whole life
With its writes, killing me softly with defrag.
This sounds more like "alcohol's soft middle-age" to me. :lol:
http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/p ... yrics.html

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:33 pm
by Moem
Portreve wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:17 pm
Y'know, this reminds me of a song...

Strummin' my bytes with its fingers
Singin' my files with its I/O
Killing me softly with defrag
Killing me softly with defrag, wasting my whole life
With its writes, killing me softly with defrag.

I heard it would be faster
It would store all my files
And so I made my order
and waited for a while
And there it was, this new drive
It really seemed to fly

Strummin' my bytes with its fingers...

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:51 pm
by Minux1
I´m thinking of dual booting LM MATE v19.2 and the latest version of Kali Large.
I am starting with a pristine new outta box Crucial 1 TB SSD so I´m particularly interested in this discussion.
I have several Linux eligible laptops so I´m debating whether or not to have a Kali dedicated laptop or dual boot.
Dual/triple/quadruple booting Windows O/Ss didn´t seem to be fraught with the same snags and pitfalls that Linux presents.
Just install the latest Windows O/S last and everything fell into place.
No messing with GRUBs, command line code or any of that stuff.
A reasonably adept 10 year old could do it. :mrgreen:

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:01 pm
by Pjotr
Minux1 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:51 pm
I´m thinking of dual booting LM MATE v19.2 and the latest version of Kali Large.
I am starting with a pristine new outta box Crucial 1 TB SSD so I´m particularly interested in this discussion.
I have several Linux eligible laptops so I´m debating whether or not to have a Kali dedicated laptop or dual boot.
Dual/triple/quadruple booting Windows O/Ss didn´t seem to be fraught with the same snags that Linux presents.
Just install the latest Windows O/S last and everything fell into place.
The thing is, that with each new Linux distro you install, you pass on the dominant Grub to that new Linux. Unless you take care not to, which requires some specialistic knowledge. This complicates the hell out of your multiboot setup.

I learned that the hard way: I once created a tenfold bootable machine. Crazy, I know, but it was in the beginning of my Linux adventure, over a decade ago. :mrgreen:

It's far easier to simply use one reliable "diesel engine" Linux as your single OS, with other Linuxes as VM's in VirtualBox. The toys in the sandbox, one rock-solid distro as host. They don't come much more reliable and stable than Linux Mint....

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:25 am
by bob466
Rocky Bennett wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:47 pm
To the OP, You might have some mis-conceptions about SSDs. I have been using the same SSD for a dual boot since 2014, that seems like plenty of longevity to me. Most of my SSDs I bought between 2014 and 2016 and I have never had any kind of failure with an SSD. Every SSD that I have ever installed seems robust and trouble free.
No I don't have any misconceptions about SSDs...I'm treating my SSD like I would a HDD but if I want it to last a long time not Defraging it is a good start...then again nothing's prefect. Glad to know your SSDs have been trouble free of a long time. :D
I originally purchased My SSD for testing only but when I put an Image on it and saw how fast it was...I was hooked. Image

There's a lot of misinformation out there...the one I laughed at was...you shouldn't put an Image on an SSD...must install the OS because the Partition Alignment wont work and the SSD will slow down :lol: works fine for me. Image

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 am
by catweazel
bob466 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:25 am
No I don't have any misconceptions about SSDs...
I beg to differ, I feel that you do. Modern SSDs are capable of lasting for petabytes written, not merely the terabytes written specified by manufacturers. Terabytes written being a deliberately invented limitation by manufacturers solely to limit the warrant period. In short, SSDs have a lifespan far exceeding the regular hard disk.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:55 pm
by bob466
catweazel wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 am
bob466 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:25 am
No I don't have any misconceptions about SSDs...
I beg to differ, I feel that you do.
Nonsense :) anyway thread isn't about read/write speeds...manufacturers or warranty...it's about prolonging the life or the SSD by not doing stupid things and there's plenty of people who do stupid things and don't learn...you only have to look on the Forum. Image :roll:

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:09 am
by AZgl1500
Today's SSDs are so hardened, they have a lifetime measured in years.

at least that is what is printed on all of the boxes for the ones I have bought lately.
my Win10 laptop has a BIOS dated 8/2018 and it has a SSD, no spinning hdwe at all.

I just don't worry about it. in Linux I don't do a defrag, just a 'trim' once in a while.

I checked my Win10 laptop, and the System says that Defrag is OFF and that is from the factory.

Re: Are You Killing Your SSD with Dual Boot ?

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:34 am
by catweazel
bob466 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:55 pm
catweazel wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:54 am
bob466 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:25 am
No I don't have any misconceptions about SSDs...
I beg to differ, I feel that you do.
...it's about prolonging the life or the SSD by not doing stupid things and there's plenty of people who do stupid things and don't learn...
Yet there are you are, teaching newcomers stupid things with FUD. Your "advice" is way out of date. You need to catch up.