Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

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Mick-Cork
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Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Mick-Cork »

The Linux Mint website refers to LM as a project, and the general Linux community seems to refer to other distributions in the same way.

I don't see LM as a project, and I'm curious if any others feel the same. For me a project has a defined start and end, timescales, milestones, a goal, and a sequence of tasks (generally defined at the outset) that encompass the scope. Subliminally, for me, the use of the word project in the Linux context also implies experimental to some degree.

I see LM as a solution. It provides me with an effective Operating System that allows me to perform work tasks and enjoy leisure activities. To refer to it as a project seems to under-sell it? I don't necessarily see it as a Windows or MacOS replacement, just that if I was starting from scratch and doing a comparison it would serve my needs, in my case more efficiently than the two market leaders.

Is it time to drop the word 'project'. Has LM reached that stage where it can be referred to as a legitimate solution. And should someone tell Clem! :)

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

project - noun - an individual or collaborative enterprise that is carefully planned to achieve a particular aim.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Moem »

It's a project from the perspective of the makers. That makes sense to me.
I'm a user, not a maker (at least, not with regards to Mint). I see it as a tool.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Portreve »

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by RollyShed »

That makes three of us using the term "tool".

We have a job to do, it (Mint) does it, keeps on doing it and is reliable unlike an alternative that is unreliable.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Mick-Cork »

Moem wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:54 pm
It's a project from the perspective of the makers. That makes sense to me.
I'm a user, not a maker (at least, not with regards to Mint). I see it as a tool.
Or possibly a series of projects by the makers, e.g, LM19, LM 20, Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, LMDE etc that ultimately provides the end user with a tool (that solves problems/meets needs). Similar to other manufacturing scenarios, such as a BMW project team tasked with designing a 3 series, and another on a 5 series...

I guess my point is that BMW don't market their cars as projects (even if they are). Hence my view that when you're introducing whatever you make to the public, for example on your website, it should ideally be aimed at the users perspective. At a minimum at least say it's an Operating System on the home page. And preferably add some of the benefits, highlights, and invite the visitor to take a (free) test drive. Give them the keys, some 'driving' tips, and let them go for a spin :)

Or just call it a project.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by lsemmens »

To me it's a tool to do a job. It is also a project whose ultimate aim is to dispense with Windows all together. :D
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by 151tom »

Linux Mint is just another Linux Distro and no better than any other Linux distro.

Linux is Linux it works well for almost everything I do with a computer.

I haven't found a bad Linux distro although some not user friendly.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by all41 »

Tool--yes Project--yes Solution--yes
Adventure and learning included as a bonus.
Last edited by all41 on Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Portreve »

I think the term "project" is best kept reserved for use within a group. External to that group, we are really only looking at the end product of that team's efforts.

One serious downside comes from a marketing perspective: do you really want people learning about GNU+Linux to think of Linux Mint (or any other distro) in terms other than an operating system? I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Moem »

Mick-Cork wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:57 pm
Hence my view that when you're introducing whatever you make to the public, for example on your website, it should ideally be aimed at the users perspective. At a minimum at least say it's an Operating System on the home page.
Now with this, I do think you have a point. The very first page ( https://linuxmint.com/ ) does not say what Linux Mint is. It doesn't call it a project, it doesn't mention it at all. In the footer, I'm told that Linux Mint is free of charge. That's nice. But what is it?

The very first entry in the FAQ is:
What is Linux Mint?

Linux Mint is a free Linux-based operating system designed for use on desktop computers.
It wouldn't need to be asked at all if it were just stated plainly on the first page.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

Moem wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 am
Now with this, I do think you have a point. The very first page ( https://linuxmint.com/ ) does not say what Linux Mint is. It doesn't call it a project, it doesn't mention it at all. In the footer, I'm told that Linux Mint is free of charge. That's nice. But what is it?

The very first entry in the FAQ is:
What is Linux Mint?

Linux Mint is a free Linux-based operating system designed for use on desktop computers.
It wouldn't need to be asked at all if it were just stated plainly on the first page.
I know what you mean. I recently visited a page / site of some corporation where I was told somebody worked and I wanted to find out what they did. The front page and the entire site was just fluff and corporate-speak and I still have no idea what they do. They "provide corporate solutions to enhance efficientivity by logistically maximising the inter-compartment parameters and ensuring an optimised environment in which goals and objectives can be met and exceeded while retaining an objective of contributing to society as a whole, etc. etc."

OTOH, If I have no clue whatsoever about what Linux is then I would do a search and probably start at Wikipedia where you can click all day looking for explanations on any term not familiar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mint
Linux Mint is a community-driven Linux distribution based on Ubuntu or Debian. Linux Mint comes bundled with a variety of free and open-source applications[5][6] and can provide full out-of-the-box multimedia support for those who choose (by ticking one box as part of the installation process of the OS) to include some proprietary software, such as multimedia codecs.
You can then look up what is Linux, what is an OS, what is a kernel, etc.

So I would think it is not unreasonable for the front page of Linux Mint to assume the reader has some basic knowledge of what Linux Mint is. Generally you want to be as brief as possible so you need a balance between giving too much and too little information. I think it is not unreasonable in many cases to assume the visitor already knows what the product is. I think it is probably reasonable to assume the visitor to Linux Mint already knows it is a distribution of Linux.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by MurphCID »

It is a solution to the issue of Linux elitism. From the bad old days of yore where it was RTFM newbie! To the newer days of elitism, where if you are not an Arch fanboy, or worship at the altar of Canonical, Mint is a breath of fresh air, and a solution to both driver issues, and dependency h*ll. Those of us from the 1990's will remember this problem, and shudder at the agonies of trying to find each and every dependency to get some software to work. Or the hours of frustration, agony, and rage at drivers which refused to work no matter what, and with 56k dial up modem time being expensive you could not pop over to a forum to get help. IF they would help instead of telling you to get lost and RTFM! I have NO desire to return to that, nor to the Linux snobs of those days. The holy wars between APT and RPM, between Debian, and Red Hat, between l33t Hax0rs, and guys just trying to use a system other than Apple or Microsoft. Thank the good Lord up above that you can install Mint and it just works. It. just. works.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

MurphCID wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:21 am
It is a solution to the issue of Linux elitism. From the bad old days of yore where it was RTFM newbie! To the newer days of elitism, where if you are not an Arch fanboy, or worship at the altar of Canonical, Mint is a breath of fresh air, and a solution to both driver issues, and dependency h*ll. Those of us from the 1990's will remember this problem, and shudder at the agonies of trying to find each and every dependency to get some software to work. Or the hours of frustration, agony, and rage at drivers which refused to work no matter what, and with 56k dial up modem time being expensive you could not pop over to a forum to get help. IF they would help instead of telling you to get lost and RTFM! I have NO desire to return to that, nor to the Linux snobs of those days. The holy wars between APT and RPM, between Debian, and Red Hat, between l33t Hax0rs, and guys just trying to use a system other than Apple or Microsoft. Thank the good Lord up above that you can install Mint and it just works. It. just. works.
Well, on the whole you do have a point and things are very definitely getting better and easier and I believe the trend is they will continue to improve (which is something I do not find myself saying about almost anything else these days).

But..., it often works after initial problems and much tinkering. It often has unsolvable problems which you have to live with and just work around them. Each OS has its own set of problems and you have to choose your poison, it is all you can do.

Regarding the elitist attitude, there is still too much of it, even on these boards. There are still people around who will tell a newbie that if they do not like dealing with the command line they are not really worthy of Linux and they should go back to their room and that if they would like to configure something so that it will work they way they had it back in Windows then they are in the wrong place and should go back to MS tout suite.

Fortunately there are plenty of helpful people who will help out and I really do appreciate it when I find someone who is not only knowledgeable but also spends their time to help out some anonymouse on a screen. I feel great gratitude for such people and I even miss some who stopped posting and I wonder what became of them and why they disappeared.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Barbados99 »

For the Mint Team it is an ongoing project. The product they produce is ever-evolving and improving, release after release, year after year...

For me Mint is a fun project and a tool. I so enjoy each release, taking what the Mint Team has produced and then tailoring it to my own needs so it can be an efficient tool for my daily use. It's not a "one size fits all" product that we receive from the Team. It's like modelling clay we use to build something special with.

I absolutely love how easy and fun it is to configure Mint XFCE into exactly what I like to use every day. I spend a lot of time on this because I am pretty picky... the end product is quite different from what initially comes from an install. And I do a fresh/clean install every six months when the new release comes out. This is the beauty of Mint. The Mint Team hands off the new releases after THEIR part of the project has reached a release-milestone. Then we get to begin our personal project, building upon their work to tailor Mint to exactly what we like.

Then it is an incredible, powerful, flexible tool we use. Pretty cool!!!

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Portreve »

GS3 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:07 am
MurphCID wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:21 am
It is a solution to the issue of Linux elitism. From the bad old days of yore where it was RTFM newbie! To the newer days of elitism, where if you are not an Arch fanboy, or worship at the altar of Canonical, Mint is a breath of fresh air, and a solution to both driver issues, and dependency h*ll. Those of us from the 1990's will remember this problem, and shudder at the agonies of trying to find each and every dependency to get some software to work. Or the hours of frustration, agony, and rage at drivers which refused to work no matter what, and with 56k dial up modem time being expensive you could not pop over to a forum to get help. IF they would help instead of telling you to get lost and RTFM! I have NO desire to return to that, nor to the Linux snobs of those days. The holy wars between APT and RPM, between Debian, and Red Hat, between l33t Hax0rs, and guys just trying to use a system other than Apple or Microsoft. Thank the good Lord up above that you can install Mint and it just works. It. just. works.
Well, on the whole you do have a point and things are very definitely getting better and easier and I believe the trend is they will continue to improve (which is something I do not find myself saying about almost anything else these days).

But..., it often works after initial problems and much tinkering. It often has unsolvable problems which you have to live with and just work around them. Each OS has its own set of problems and you have to choose your poison, it is all you can do.

Regarding the elitist attitude, there is still too much of it, even on these boards. There are still people around who will tell a newbie that if they do not like dealing with the command line they are not really worthy of Linux and they should go back to their room and that if they would like to configure something so that it will work they way they had it back in Windows then they are in the wrong place and should go back to MS tout suite.

Fortunately there are plenty of helpful people who will help out and I really do appreciate it when I find someone who is not only knowledgeable but also spends their time to help out some anonymouse on a screen. I feel great gratitude for such people and I even miss some who stopped posting and I wonder what became of them and why they disappeared.
The 1990s were an era of transition which people who did not have computers or who owned one but didn't scratch beneath the surface truly know nothing about. At least, that's been my own experience as someone who first touched a computer in 1984 and first owned one (a Macintosh) in 1986. I've been there and I've watched as we transitioned from a world largely driven by hobbyists and enthusiasts and tinkerers to one which is totally commercialized and commoditized, and one in which all the powers that be want as much control as they can possibly get, both technology companies and (in particular) the entertainment industry.

As for elitism, well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of being an a**hole towards other people, but that said, I also well remember the era of the "AOL User" and the general mentality of the new-comer non-geeks that somehow everyone else in industry owed them something (or, everything). I mean, c'mon, if you want to have a computer, at least bother to try learning about technology. I have no use for the intellectually lazy and disengaged. A friend of mine a number of years ago said "Not everyone should be allowed to have a computer." I strongly agree with that statement, even though we live in a world where technology is so embedded in the fabric of our reality that one can seemingly not function without at least some of it.

And yes, MurphCID, most people here on this board have ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING IDEA what "dependency hell" is all about. It's no wonder that the supposed "Year of Linux" back in 1997/98 failed, and failed hard, and likely scared off generations of potential GNU+Linux users.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by all41 »

Moem wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 am
Mick-Cork wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:57 pm
Hence my view that when you're introducing whatever you make to the public, for example on your website, it should ideally be aimed at the users perspective. At a minimum at least say it's an Operating System on the home page.
Now with this, I do think you have a point. The very first page ( https://linuxmint.com/ ) does not say what Linux Mint is. It doesn't call it a project, it doesn't mention it at all. In the footer, I'm told that Linux Mint is free of charge. That's nice. But what is it?

The very first entry in the FAQ is:
What is Linux Mint?

Linux Mint is a free Linux-based operating system designed for use on desktop computers.
It wouldn't need to be asked at all if it were just stated plainly on the first page.
Mint is not for only desktop computers though
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by deepakdeshp »

all41 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:37 pm
Mint is not for only desktop computers though
What else is it used for?
Last edited by Moem on Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed a quote. Make sure to always use a closing tag [/quote] after a quote.
If I have helped you solve a problem, please add [SOLVED] to your first post title, it helps other users looking for help, and keeps the forum clean.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by RollyShed »

How much do you need to know, understand?
The less that is understood, the inner nuts & bolts, the more the software simply becomes a tool.

1.) Take a pre-computer laptop. The writing slope. Open it as you do a laptop, pull out some paper, take the top off the ink bottle, pick up a pen and write. The "software" is between the ears mainly.

2.) Take a laptop, open it up, boot-up, open LibreOffice Write, write/type the document, plug in/connect to a printer and print the page.

There is little difference between the two, they are both being used as a tool and the software on the laptop is just part of the "Pen & Ink".

1.) You do need to know how to fill the ink well but not need to know the ink formulae. You can buy nibs for the pen rather than chasing the goose for a quill.

2.) You might need to know how to change an ink cartridge in a printer but not the ink formulae.

OK, maybe the human has all the software provided by education to use the writing slope and the laptop has it installed plus the education of the person to use it.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by all41 »

@RollyShed
Philisophical you
:) 8)
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