LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

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Portreve
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Portreve »

One would think a complete lack of mass complaints about a release of a mainstream distro would kind of indicate it's overall not a piece of crap. I guess not...
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Re: LM 20.0

Post by Pjotr »

rambo919 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:29 am
I will only upgrade to LM20 to test this weekend but currently on LM19.3 I have an issue where ANY kernel past 4.15 results in refusals to log in.
Test with a clean installation of LM 20, not with an upgraded 19.3.
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Dark Owl »

How-old! wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:34 am
Does it have to be MX-19 from now on?!
If that's what works for you, why not? Or even LM17 if that's what you prefer. I'm still using Win7 for day-to-day desktop work, prior to "upgrading" to Linux.

Ignoring arguments about security etc, the reasons that force OS update are (1) new hardware is not accommodated by the old OS (eg USB support in Win3.11), and (2) desired new software is incompatible with the old OS. So: be satisfied with the software you currently run, and be careful what new hardware you buy.

So far as security is concerned, LM19 is supported for the next few years - and even if it wasn't, adequate port blocking in your router and cleanly Internet habits plus OS snapshotting will avoid most disasters.
How-old! wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:34 am
Some folks just like to get the work done...
I'm with you on that.
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Previously: LM20β, LM18.2

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by antikythera »

I'm also in the just want to get work done category these days, that's why I opted for LMDE4. Even though Ulyana will get 5 years support, there are issues stemming from Ubuntu migrating packages to snaps I do not want to engage or deal with. Chromium is not the first and certainly won't be the last. LibreOffice already has a snap as do pretty much all GNOME applications so you can guess how long it will be before they become redirecting placeholders too in the normal repository.

Snaps while they work okay, have a larger footprint and take ages to load even with an SSD drive. I'd dread to think what the experience is like on an older machine with a 5400rpm laptop HDD.
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Barbados99 »

antikythera wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:58 am
I'm also in the just want to get work done category these days, that's why I opted for LMDE4. Even though Ulyana will get 5 years support, there are issues stemming from Ubuntu migrating packages to snaps I do not want to engage or deal with. Chromium is not the first and certainly won't be the last. LibreOffice already has a snap as do pretty much all GNOME applications so you can guess how long it will be before they become redirecting placeholders too in the normal repository.

Snaps while they work okay, have a larger footprint and take ages to load even with an SSD drive. I'd dread to think what the experience is like on an older machine with a 5400rpm laptop HDD.
You bring up an excellent point. It makes you wonder if Mint will end up initiating the LMDE option sooner rather than later - and dropping the Ubuntu based offerings. I realize this would be a big decision and not an easy undertaking (to completely leave Ubuntu behind). But as you point out, Canonical/Ubuntu is moving in one direction that Mint does not want to go. At some point this may force the issue of Mint moving exclusively to LMDE. Maybe it would be best if Mint did focus all of their resources on one offering, LMDE. Then the upstream issues from Canonical/Ubunto are gone.
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Hoser Rob »

The issues with new hardware don't have much to do with Mint per se, it's at the kernel level. As of kernel 5, a LOT of support for old hardware was removed.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Night Wing »

I have 4 computers (2 desktop towers, 2 laptops).

The oldest computer is this 2010 year model HP 170-T desktop tower computer which I'm typing this post with. It has an old Intel i7 processor in it with a processor speed of 2.80, 16 GB of memory, an AMD Radeon HD 6450 graphics card, an ancient Sound Blaster Titanium sound card, 2 DVD hard drives and 2, 1 TB 7200 platter hard drives. Linux Mint 20 (Ulyana) Xfce runs fast and without any problems for me using the 5.4.0-40 kernel.

My other computers range in age from 2012 to 2013 year models. No problems running Mint 20 Xfce on those old computers either with the same 5.4.0-40 kernel.
Mint 20 (Ulyana) Xfce 64 Bit

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

Night Wing wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:08 am
I have 4 computers (2 desktop towers, 2 laptops).

The oldest computer is this 2010 year model HP 170-T desktop tower computer which I'm typing this post with. It has an old Intel i7 processor in it with a processor speed of 2.80, 16 GB of memory, an AMD Radeon HD 6450 graphics card, an ancient Sound Blaster Titanium sound card, 2 DVD hard drives and 2, 1 TB 7200 platter hard drives. Linux Mint 20 (Ulyana) Xfce runs fast and without any problems for me using the 5.4.0-40 kernel.
Getting a modern Linux installed and running properly on gear older than that is often a matter of pure, unadulterated serendipity. It doesn't always work out, especially with the newer kernels, and the efforts that have gone on to rip old code out of it. Here we often have to refer people to other distributions that are more geared toward old hardware. 10 years seems to be about the reasonable limit, though some have had good luck but others haven't.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Portreve »

I haven't put LM 20 on it, but I ran LM 19.3 quite successfully on a 2011 MBP, and honestly I suspect it would run 20 perfectly well also.
Please remember to mark your fixed problem [SOLVED].

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Harfud »

Hmmmmmmm, I'm running a Core 2 quad which must be circa 2009 and an i5 which must be circa 2012 nonproblematically, indeed I'm happy with the performances.

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Re: LM 20.0

Post by rambo919 »

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:52 am
rambo919 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:29 am
I will only upgrade to LM20 to test this weekend but currently on LM19.3 I have an issue where ANY kernel past 4.15 results in refusals to log in.
Test with a clean installation of LM 20, not with an upgraded 19.3.
Funny thing that, I initially tried an upgrade yesterday, seemed to be going fine. It only required 300-500MB files to be set up..... then it entered into a surprise second leg of 1.5GB of files to be set up..... right before a rolling blackout hit..... I sighed and swore a bit and installed LM20 from scratch this morning after I could in no shape or form convince the partial upgrade to just pick up where it had left off.... all for the better anyway.

After the format-reinstall I could log in but with a black screen where the second monitor should be.... after installing the nvidia driver problem gone. Still picks up the screen as a 40" but at least I can work around that. Seems to mostly be a problem with Nouveau specifically for once.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by rambo919 »

It generally seems that the "utter disaster" seems to happen with any hardware outside of the window of attention that the package base devs can lend their attention to, which makes sense. You cannot have one group of people pay attention to ALL hardware, you need to split teams into groups of Ancient-Old, Old-Current, Bleeding-Edge. Distro wise this seems to happen but it really needs to happen on package base level I think.... which is something the LM team has no control over unless they get a LOT more funding and can expand. Canonical really should figure this out and start maintaining three or two main branches instead of just one but they seem to be stuck in a comfortable rut for now... or they already are at their limits.

No one in linux world is on the M$ level when it comes to resources, we just like to pretend they are. And M$ has become complacent in many areas.

I have a new but relatively older (2017) motherboard which by now really should have received better support but probably because it contains (or so it seems to me) an obscure sound chip neither realtek nor the kernel devs have seen fit to properly support it. I should be able to get up to 7.1 but all I can get on any LM release is 2.0.... and there is an odd pop half the time when a sound stream starts that does not happen in windows. I had assumed that all realtek chips were equally supported....guess not.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by rambo919 »

antikythera wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:49 am
Interesting, that log on refusal and resolution issue seems routed in possible GPU driver or Xorg compatibility issues though. If you haven't already done so it may be worth opening a thread about them. Post the full hardware information for your machine from inxi in it as described in the 'how to get help' thread.
I had in a search seen a few threads where users reporting similar problems (one thread seemed to have almost exactly the same problem.... in the end the only solution was to switch to different cables or adapters which won't work for me because I am running a 17" CRT..... I think that possibly people in Nouveau land are completely forgetting that such old but still fully functional monitors still exists.... using the nvidia driver the problem mostly stops becoming an issue. Still picks it up as a 40" but somehow it's easier to work around.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Oldbill »

I have been running LM 20 since it was released, once I have logged in the OS runs perfectly, no complaints there at all.

The problem comes at start up and shut down/restart, ACPI error messages galore, this forum is full of complaints and requests for assistance on the matter. Initially I reinstalled with LMDE4, the problem is still there but less obvious, same with MX. This problem seems to be an issue for Ubuntu, Fedora, Manjaro users also, so its not just a Mint problem.

If I were just switching from Apple or Microsoft now I wouldn't bother, the Kernel developers have taken their eye of they ball. The Wokey snowflakes seem more concerned with renaming areas of the OS, no more terms like Slave, Blacklist.

I am really pissed of with Linux, just as its becoming an OS that anyone can use it gets screwed up. I have been trying to get friends and family to move across, that wont happen again any time soon.

My PC is a year old i5, SSD, 8 gig of ram, latest BIOS on the board, I should have no errors at all and it shouldn't matter if it were five years old or more, Linux always used to run on anything, the problems used to be with just new kit.

I don't want to see a page full of this crap every time I use my PC

ACPI Error: Aborting method \_SB.PCI0.SAT0.PRT0._GTF due to previous error (AE_NOT_FOUND) (20190816/psparse-529)

No one has a sensible answer, the errors can be turned off, not a good idea. The gurus here and elsewhere come up with "Your PC is too old" "Too new" update your bios, update your firmware blah blah blah. All bullshit. Linus Torvalds needs get a grip.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by rene »

Oldbill wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:59 am
All bullshit.
No actually. The way ACPI works is that the kernel parses by the manufacturer in the BIOS embedded tables and if said tables do not quite strictly adhere to published standards, adhere enough only to have the only OS with which they are tested work, Windows, there's no way that Linux can avoid this in a general sense. Manufacturers do all kinds of wonky shit that you simply can not proactively defend against, and in that case the only possible solution is a BIOS upgrade --- which may or may not work, depending on how many Linux customers the manufacturer had complain already.

If in some cases it's the kernel's ACPI-layer/interpreter that wants updating due to non-standard but still practically used BIOS-sides configurations, it's the kernel that needs to be updated for the new and newly behaving hardware. I was just in another thread with a more focussed version of the same principle: a manufacturer not having shared information on its audio setup so as to be able to develop/adjust a Linux driver but just synchronizing their in-house developed Windows driver/software with whatever they did on the hardware side and calling it a day.

Which I personally feel they usually have every right to do. But it in any case means that neither Linux nor Linus can do anything about it proactively. That it's either the manufacturer's fault or your fault for not taking capitalism serious enough to not buy products from a manufacturer that has lousy Linux support --- but in practice of course no one's fault due every manufacturer doing the same on at least some occasions. As long as things work this way, manufacturers keeping details proprietary and/or testing only with Windows, this is how it is, and it used to in fact be a whole lot worse when Linux was even less of a concern for manufacturers.

But to this day, If you can not live with that issue, you can not live with Linux, period. You'll ned a closed, proprietary operating system to match your same hardware.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by antikythera »

It is not bullshit, I agree with rene. I actually firmly believe Linus and the kernel maintainers are doing sterling work. The majority of contributing parties do not get paid to compile or maintain the kernel or modules. OEM laptop and system builders, PC component manufacturers do not unilaterally support their efforts by giving them access to code which would better enable them to support proprietary EFI and ACPI, GPU cards (FU NVIDIA! still applies...), WLAN (some chip manufacturers are okay but others are uncooperative). I could go on. The point is, you get what you pay for, the guys who develop the kernel spend a lot of their time reverse engineering to support new hardware. As for old hardware being left behind eventually, it is quite simple. Developers do not have access to the hardware, testers have moved to newer hardware, Windows and Mac OS also abandon hardware (actually much sooner actually than Linux which provides extended life for many old Windows devices) because of keeping the level of code and commits to a manageable level.

My laptop and desktop running linux are both end of life as far as Windows is concerned. The laptop came with Windows 8.1 5 years ago, the desktop is a 6 year old self-build.

Neither are certified for W10 beyond 1511 release and only have outdated hardware and firmware interface drivers available which if used with the newest builds of Windows cause problems. Linux on the otherhand, they work perfectly with.
rambo919 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:40 am
I had in a search seen a few threads where users reporting similar problems (one thread seemed to have almost exactly the same problem.... in the end the only solution was to switch to different cables or adapters which won't work for me because I am running a 17" CRT..... I think that possibly people in Nouveau land are completely forgetting that such old but still fully functional monitors still exists.... using the nvidia driver the problem mostly stops becoming an issue. Still picks it up as a 40" but somehow it's easier to work around.
nouveau is not feature complete by any means. if it works reasonably well using proprietary blobs at least you have an option. I had a ViewSonic PF775 which I really liked. Sadly the ARAG coating got damaged by my daughter when she was younger. She sprayed furniture polish on it trying to be helpful.
Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive anyway!

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Oldbill »

The closed proprietary operating system you refer to is Windows, nothing else is worth mentioning, Linux exists to provide an alternative. They have been at it for years and its more buggy now that ever. 25 years ago Linux was rock solid, it was just useless, no software support, but now when it can at last compete with M$ its riddled with bugs.

Which bug ridden mess should I go for??????????

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by rene »

Oldbill wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:26 am
Which bug ridden mess should I go for??????????
Judging by your posts, Windows. Hope that helps. Cheerio.

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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Barbados99 »

Oldbill wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:26 am
The closed proprietary operating system you refer to is Windows, nothing else is worth mentioning, Linux exists to provide an alternative. They have been at it for years and its more buggy now that ever. 25 years ago Linux was rock solid, it was just useless, no software support, but now when it can at last compete with M$ its riddled with bugs.

Which bug ridden mess should I go for??????????
It's all about choice, and realizing that even after all of these years computers are going to be less than perfect for us users. I (very much) like the fact that Mint has this resource to help me when there are problems. I never had this level of user-to-user support (not of this quality) when I used Windows. But the beauty of it all is that we have many choices other than just Mint. If we like another operating system better then we can choose that one. I use Mint XFCE on my main daily-driver computer and I don't have many issues. Sure, an occasional problem crops up but it is a rock solid OS for me. I am always trying other Linux distros but not on this main computer that does the heavy-lifting for my serious work. This computer "just works" and isn't set up to be pretty, but for chunking out work every day.

I'm in the process of beginning an instal of Gentoo on another laptop now. No doubt I will have problems, but it will be good to have that granularity of control over that OS (I'm even going to try and configure my own kernel... and compile all of my own software). LOL, as if Arch wasn't painful enough I'm going down this new rabbit hole :-)

But I digress. Just pick an OS and go with it. If it isn't your cup of tea then try another. Life is all about enjoying the journey and not letting stuff make us crazier than we already are... and good luck!
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Hmfan »

All the jokes aside about old 1 - 2 core computers running modern OSes, I do have an older laptop that happily hums along using a AMD tureon x2 neo that runs at 1.6 GHZ with 4gb of DDR2 RAM and it works just fine as an XFCE system. It was last running mint 19.3 before I retired it in favor of a newer laptop that handles more RAM. That thing's processor really could handle more than what many would give it credit for.
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