LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

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cliffcoggin
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by cliffcoggin »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:39 pm

The evidence for that being the ongoing efforts of the kernel developers to rip out support for a lot of old equipment.
What is the advantage in removing old software from the kernel, which in my ignorance I assume takes time and effort? Is it just a matter of size or can there be conflicts with newer software?
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MartyMint
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by MartyMint »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:30 pm
What is the advantage in removing old software from the kernel, which in my ignorance I assume takes time and effort? Is it just a matter of size or can there be conflicts with newer software?
Some development team might see this as "kernel bloat".
I dunno. There's two sides to every story.
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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:30 pm
What is the advantage in removing old software from the kernel, which in my ignorance I assume takes time and effort? Is it just a matter of size or can there be conflicts with newer software?
It's far, far more than that, so much so that not only have many books been written about it, entire careers have been made out of it. Old code and code that is used by less than 2 or 3 people or isn't used by anyone at all or is obsolete is removed for any number of valid reasons.

If you are a developer, new to working on a software project then your first job is to understand the code, which means you have to understand the unused, old, obsolete code as well. This not only creates confusion, it wastes time and adds up to increased cost.

Standards and languages change, and time marches on. I'll use an analogy here to make the point. Take the British Vulcan Bomber as an example. For many years there were many people with the knowledge and experience required for the Vulcan bomber to be certified to fly, but as time went on, this number dwindled down to one, and eventually to zero. With nobody to certify the aircraft to fly, it couldn't fly and is now stuck on the ground in an aircraft museum. It's the same with old code, the people who understood it can eventually dwindle to zero.

Architecture changes very often, and old code may not be structured, written or understood sufficiently well to meet new demands. If old code is still needed to make something modern run, and nobody really understands the old code, it's rewritten to meet new standards, often from scratch.

Old, unused code distorts project metrics. If I'm an employer, I want to know about the size of my project. Measuring is often done done with metrics such as Source Lines of Code (SLOC) and function points. Both of these are used to estimate investment, worth, staffing ratios and costs. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that I have on my hands a project with umpteen million SLOC and only two function points. This is a very bad situation to be in because the metrics are telling me that I'm maintaining a behemoth, with all its associated costs, that does something as useful as a pluggerhagen[1].

Then there are human factors. Again, if I'm an employer, and if I care about my people, as I should, then situations like those above increase stress, increase errors, increase burn-out, decrease productivity, decrease profit, create loss ... and I have a time-bomb on my hands. KABOOM! I'm out of business and my former staff's children are starving.

Still with human factors, old code creates FUD and cognitive dissonance. Why is the code unused? Why is it in this state? Why is it still here? What happens to the functionality if this is removed? So on and so on.

There are environmental factors in play too. Compiling software costs energy. Why commit energy resources to compiling a pluggerhagen?

There are a myriad other reasons to remove old code, and I could go on for hours because I've had 45 years in the software industry and managed $400,000,000 programs. In fact that particular $400,000,000 program failed because the customer wanted to use an existing pluggerhagen as the base. I tried many times to get them to shut it down, pulling out all the tricks that a program manager could use but they persisted. It was only when they were told that we were going to rent an entire eight storey building to house just the testers, and that we would need a much larger building to house the programmers that they twigged, and at my urging, called in the auditors and eventually took a financial hit of over $200,000,000. That is not chicken-feed in anyone's book, even for a multi-billion dollar enterprise.

So, what do we do if, say, one day we realise that the old code we removed two decades ago is now suddenly needed? We have version control for that.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... -Intel-MIC

That says a lot:
While Linux 5.10-rc2 is coming later today and a week past the merge window, a notable late pull request sent in this morning by Greg Kroah-Hartman is removing the Intel MIC (Many Integrated Core) architecture drivers, a.k.a. Xeon Phi.

Lightening up the kernel tree by nearly twenty-seven thousand lines of code is the removal of ... Intel's failed Intel MIC X100 (Knights Corner and beyond) that was the PCIe form factor add-in co-processor cards...
As I said, I could go on giving reasons to remove old code, but at the end of the day, every single reason there is in the universe to remove old code can be reduced to a single, all-encompassing word. Risk.

[1] pluggerhagen : noun A highly complex machine that does nothing.
It's pronounced kad-eye-cha, not kada-itcha.
cliffcoggin
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by cliffcoggin »

Thanks for that KM. Here was I thinking it was just a matter of holding down the delete button for a few minutes to remove code.

PS I watched the Vulcan on its farewell tour a few years ago, and still admire the Spitfire that flies regularly nearby.
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Dark Owl »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:37 pm
pluggerhagen : noun A highly complex machine that does nothing.
Nice - where did that come from? Google offers no hits (except this one).
Currently: Linux Mint 20 Cinnamon 64-bit 4.6.6, AMD Ryzen5 + Geforce GT 710
Previously: LM20β, LM18.2
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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:53 am
PS I watched the Vulcan on its farewell tour a few years ago, and still admire the Spitfire that flies regularly nearby.
I used to live about 20 miles from Birkenhead AB but not on the flight path. I was about nine at the time. One day I was outside, rolling in muck, as pigs do, and suddenly the ground started vibrating, then there was a deafening, thundering noise and a whole row of terraced houses started vibrating, I was vibrating, the grass and trees were vibrating, and the deafening noise turned into a deafening whistle. I looked up and not 60 feet above my head, this gigantic, white delta-winged aircraft with a red, white and blue circle on it flew right over the top of my head. I didn't know what it was, only learning later that day, but I've had a lifetime of pleasure from following that aircraft.
It's pronounced kad-eye-cha, not kada-itcha.
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by cliffcoggin »

I had a similar experience as a child at an air show when an English Electric Lightning lit its afterburners immediately above me as it went into a near vertical climb. I reckon the vibration would have been significant on a seismometer.
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antikythera
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by antikythera »

It was the Vulcan's engine howls and whistles it made that amazed me. Concorde borrowed a lot of technology from the Vulcan, shame it too got grounded before it's time.
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Dark Owl
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Dark Owl »

I went to the Salisbury Air Show with the intention of seeing the Vulcan on its farewell tour, but my mate (into such things) picked up that it had changed its route (or timing) due to a fuel leak or something and I was on a schedule to get back. We did a chase in the car to where we could intercept the route and got lucky.
cliffcoggin wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:13 pm
I had a similar experience as a child at an air show when an English Electric Lightning lit its afterburners immediately above me as it went into a near vertical climb. I reckon the vibration would have been significant on a seismometer.
Ever heard the Typhoon?
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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: LM 20.0 an utter disaster on less than latest hardware.

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:13 pm
I had a similar experience as a child at an air show when an English Electric Lightning lit its afterburners immediately above me as it went into a near vertical climb. I reckon the vibration would have been significant on a seismometer.
I think my story wins. I wasn't expecting it, and I admitted to rolling in muck :)
It's pronounced kad-eye-cha, not kada-itcha.
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Re: LM 20.0

Post by blueicetwice »

Pjotr wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:59 am
How-old! wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:34 am
some folks still using 286 machines (with e.g. Puppy) - not Mint, but that's the reality.
Fossilized tech junk like that should be taken behind the barn and forcibly shot. Or exhibited in a museum. :twisted:
How-old! wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:34 am
Some folks just like to get the work done...
If you have the desire to get the work done, I'd recommend to start by dumping your 286 machines. :lol:

Seriously: these days you can even get second-hand machines for next to nothing, that'll run just fine on Mint 20. I fail to see the problem.
Pjotr, has addressed the complainant with a concise and humerus reply.

There is nothing to add other than to start a GoFundMe page for the plaintiff.

I can switch from harvesting ballots to hardware on a moment notice. Operators standing by.
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