[SOLVED]All I Want for Christmas is... Linux Mint 21.1!

[SMG]

When Linux Mint 21 has been released, Ubuntu was "22.04" only; it became "22.04.01 LTS" a few weeks later.

What does the point release of 22.04 have to do with Linux Mint 21?

Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS.

The fact Ubuntu 22.04.01 LTS came out a few weeks after Linux Mint 21 has no bearing on the fact Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS

Please check the link dorsetUK provided. It is dated for 21 April 2022 and is titled "Canonical Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is released".

[MikeNovember]

When Linux Mint 21 has been released, Ubuntu was "22.04" only; it became "22.04.01 LTS" a few weeks later.

What does the point release of 22.04 have to do with Linux Mint 21?

Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS.

The fact Ubuntu 22.04.01 LTS came out a few weeks after Linux Mint 21 has no bearing on the fact Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS

Please check the link dorsetUK provided. It is dated for 21 April 2022 and is titled "Canonical Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is released".

Sorry, my confusion.

I thought that "LTS" was added only from 22.04.1, but even the "22.04" is called LTS.

People installing Linux Mint 21 from its beginning inherited bugs from Linux Mint (they are reported on Github) but also from Ubuntu (they represent the largest quantity of bugs). As an example, reading the 5.15 kernel changelog shows hundreds of "Jammy" changes, before and after its release: 5.15 kernel is nowadays unstable.

--> Early adopters have changed a stable Linux Mint 20.3 / Ubuntu 20.04.04 LTS for an unstable Linux Mint 21 / 22.04 LTS.

--> Now, at its midlife, Linux Mint 20.3 is based on stable Ubuntu 20.04.05 LTS. And 6 months after its release, Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, a bit more stable than 22.04, but still buggy, version.

Regards,

MN

[SMG]

People installing Linux Mint 21 from its beginning inherited bugs from Linux Mint (they are reported on Github) but also from Ubuntu (they represent the largest quantity of bugs).

That is always the case. That is why the Linux Mint release notes say to read the Ubuntu release notes.

As an example, reading the 5.15 kernel changelog shows hundreds of "Jammy" changes, before and after its release: 5.15 kernel is nowadays unstable.

I have no idea what you mean by 5.15 kernel being "unstable". The kernel change logs are cumulative and Canonical backports changes from later kernels to keep the LTS kernel working properly. That is no different than it has always been. The same thing happened to the 5.4 kernel prior to Ubuntu 20.04 being released. According to your statements here, that would mean the 5.4 kernel is "unstable".

I think you might want to check the definition of the word "unstable". You seem to be using it in a manner it is not normally used.

--> Now, at its midlife, Linux Mint 20.3 is based on stable Ubuntu 20.04.05 LTS. And 6 months after its release, Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, a bit more stable than 22.04, but still buggy, version.

I suggest you read the release documentation for Linux Mint 20.3. Linux Mint 20.3 Cinnamon New Features indicates, "Linux Mint 20.3 features Cinnamon 5.2, a Linux kernel 5.4 and an Ubuntu 20.04 package base." Nowhere does it say it is based on Ubuntu 20.04.05.

[dorsetUK]

Hi Mike, you seem to be saying that the base of your original idea has just been shot down in flames - BUT - your argument is still valid.

I may be wrong, but that seems to be what you're saying.

Every release of a new version of Linux - or any OS - has many bug reports. I just wondered if you've done a comparison between versions, or are saying, 'this' version has many bug reports?

If so, is that more that more than previous versions?

Re-reading that, I didn't need the last comment - but hey!

[AZgl1800]

Thus far, IME, Linux Mint 21 (Cinnamon) has been a walk through a mine field; so much so, I have retreated to the safer, more stable environs of it's predecessor, LM 20.3 (Cinnamon)....

Other's experience with Mint 21 hasn't been a minefield. Is that Samsung in your signature the machine you're talking about? That's a 10 year old machine and there are limits to this "Linux is the saviour of old computers" thing.

While I'm not certain that Linux support for your machine has lapsed, I've seen quite a few Linux users on forums with that problem using old boxes and hoping that a new release will fix things. That's actually very unlikely in Linux. Old hardware bugs rarely get fixed. I'm actually going to install Antix on my old netbook and run a 4.9 kernel.

I have the Samsung S10+ and support for it expires soon.
I had to upgrade from the Note8 because the Apps quit working.

[FenderGuy]

Thus far, IME, Linux Mint 21 (Cinnamon) has been a walk through a mine field; so much so, I have retreated to the safer, more stable environs of it's predecessor, LM 20.3 (Cinnamon)....

Other's experience with Mint 21 hasn't been a minefield. Is that Samsung in your signature the machine you're talking about? That's a 10 year old machine and there are limits to this "Linux is the saviour of old computers" thing.

While I'm not certain that Linux support for your machine has lapsed, I've seen quite a few Linux users on forums with that problem using old boxes and hoping that a new release will fix things. That's actually very unlikely in Linux. Old hardware bugs rarely get fixed. I'm actually going to install Antix on my old netbook and run a 4.9 kernel.

Hey, Hoser, I've been running Linux Mint 20.3 (Cinnamon) on my Samsung laptop with absolutely zero issues.

The only issues I had was when I tried to back up my installation using Rescuezilla 2.3.1 (Impish), which is based on Ubuntu 20.10. When I use Rescuezilla (Focal), based on Ubuntu 20.04, I have no issues whatsoever.

[MikeNovember]

As an example, reading the 5.15 kernel changelog shows hundreds of "Jammy" changes, before and after its release: 5.15 kernel is nowadays unstable.

I have no idea what you mean by 5.15 kernel being "unstable". The kernel change logs are cumulative and Canonical backports changes from later kernels to keep the LTS kernel working properly. That is no different than it has always been. The same thing happened to the 5.4 kernel prior to Ubuntu 20.04 being released. According to your statements here, that would mean the 5.4 kernel is "unstable".

Hi,
5.4 kernel was unstable at its beginings, now it is more stable.

--> Now, at its midlife, Linux Mint 20.3 is based on stable Ubuntu 20.04.05 LTS. And 6 months after its release, Linux Mint 21 is based on Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS, a bit more stable than 22.04, but still buggy, version.

I suggest you read the release documentation for Linux Mint 20.3. Linux Mint 20.3 Cinnamon New Features indicates, "Linux Mint 20.3 features Cinnamon 5.2, a Linux kernel 5.4 and an Ubuntu 20.04 package base." Nowhere does it say it is based on Ubuntu 20.04.05.

Did I mention "Linux Mint ISO" in my writings?

I speak of an installed Linux Mint system.

Ubuntu ISO refreshes do include recent updates on the ISO that you otherwise get by simply installing available updates.
When a user regularly updates Linux Mint, he updates both Linux Mint software and Ubuntu one. So, at the time Ubuntu released its 20.04.5 LTS ISO, users updating regularly their systems had their system based on it.

Regards,

MN

[SMG]

5.4 kernel was unstable at its beginings, now it is more stable.

Unstable software crashes or stops working on a regular/consistent basis for most people using it. That is what unstable means. It means the software can not be trusted to work properly by most people using it.

While extremely buggy software might be unstable and cause the system to crash, buggy does not usually mean unstable. Usually software bugs affect only specific use cases and thus a much smaller portion of users than would even notice there was an issue. That is not the case for unstable software.

[MikeNovember]

5.4 kernel was unstable at its beginings, now it is more stable.

Unstable software crashes or stops working on a regular/consistent basis for most people using it. That is what unstable means. It means the software can not be trusted to work properly by most people using it.

While extremely buggy software might be unstable and cause the system to crash, buggy does not usually mean unstable. Usually software bugs affect only specific use cases and thus a much smaller portion of users than would even notice there was an issue. That is not the case for unstable software.

Hi,

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unstable

Definition of unstable
: not stable : not firm or fixed : not constant: such as
a: not steady in action or movement : IRREGULAR
an unstable pulse
b: wavering in purpose or intent : VACILLATING
c: lacking steadiness : apt to move, sway, or fall
an unstable tower
d(1): liable to change or alteration
an unstable economy
unstable weather
d(2): readily changing (as by decomposing) in chemical or physical composition or in biological activity
e: characterized by lack of emotional control

d(1) "liable to change or alteration", with a bit of c "lacking steadiness : apt to move, sway, or fall" well represent what I have in mind when I speak of unstable software.

Regards,

MN

[fluidtech]

After reading the posts, seems like there are those users who are content to continue with LM 20.3 and wait for bugs to be worked out in LM 21 as LM 21.1. Looking at a new install, should I go with 20.3 or take a chance and go with 21? Just went through trying to upgrade to 21 from 20.3. Mintupdate stalled. Any workarounds to get it to completion? thanks

[Moem]

Just went through trying to upgrade to 21 from 20.3. Mintupdate stalled. Any workarounds to get it to completion? thanks

Hello and welcome! This is a chat topic, and so it's not the best place to get help. I would advise you to start a topic of your own in a suitable forum section, that is how we roll here... and your topic will get more visibility and also be easier to find in a search.

[SMG]

d(1) "liable to change or alteration", with a bit of c "lacking steadiness : apt to move, sway, or fall" well represent what I have in mind when I speak of unstable software.

So in your opinion there is no such thing as stable software. Not ever. According to you, software is always unstable.

Your opinion of what is considered stable software is outside of the norms of how the term is usually used in the software world. That is why I asked for a clarification on your definition.

[FenderGuy]

After reading the posts, seems like there are those users who are content to continue with LM 20.3 and wait for bugs to be worked out in LM 21 as LM 21.1. Looking at a new install, should I go with 20.3 or take a chance and go with 21? Just went through trying to upgrade to 21 from 20.3. Mintupdate stalled. Any workarounds to get it to completion? thanks

IMHO, having "been there, done that", and a proclivity for things "working as they ought", I would recommend doing a fresh install of LM 20.3 (Cinnamon), installing the recommended updates, as needed, and waiting to see how LM 21.1 (Cinnamon) shakes out.

Make/keep a copy of your My Documents folder before doing anything.

Sure, having the "latest and greatest" is nice, but having a viable system is essential!

[MikeNovember]

d(1) "liable to change or alteration", with a bit of c "lacking steadiness : apt to move, sway, or fall" well represent what I have in mind when I speak of unstable software.

So in your opinion there is no such thing as stable software. Not ever. According to you, software is always unstable.

Hi,

"Unstable" is an English word, and AFAIK there is no specific meaning for "unstable" when used with "software".

Complex software, by essence, cannot be absolutely "stable"; a distribution like Ubuntu or Linux Mint uses:
- a kernel, an assembly of incoherent pieces of software, written by tens (hundreds?) of developers, with different programming languages, with recent parts and some as old as "80486" intel technology,
- thousands of heterogeneous commands and libraries, (GNU and others),
- hundreds of applications.
--> very large number of reasons for bugs or security vulnerabilities, inducing constant corrections.

If you look at Ubuntu LTS full life (10 years support, with 5 years free support and 5 years pay support) there are continuous changes all along these ten years life.

Your opinion of what is considered stable software is outside of the norms of how the term is usually used in the software world. That is why I asked for a clarification on your definition.

Please, give the reference of one of the "norms" you think to.
Personally I use ISO/IEC/IEEE 24765 "Systems and software engineering — Vocabulary".
[It does not define "stable software", and so current English meanings of "stable" do apply to software].

Regards,

MN

[Moem]

"Unstable" is an English word, and AFAIK there is no specific meaning for "unstable" when used with "software".

Of course there is. For example, you and I will probably agree that it does not mean 'violently reactive and prone to explosion', as it can mean when used when talking about chemistry. It also does not mean 'unsuitable to drive a large vehicle across because it may tumble down' as it might when said about a bridge. All words take on specific meaning depending on context.

(I'm pretty sure you will now bring up a word that this does not apply to. Well, have at it and enjoy.)

[MurphCID]

Me when Mint issues an update:

[MikeNovember]

"Unstable" is an English word, and AFAIK there is no specific meaning for "unstable" when used with "software".

Of course there is. For example, you and I will probably agree that it does not mean 'violently reactive and prone to explosion', as it can mean when used when talking about chemistry. It also does not mean 'unsuitable to drive a large vehicle across because it may tumble down' as it might when said about a bridge. All words take on specific meaning depending on context.

(I'm pretty sure you will now bring up a word that this does not apply to. Well, have at it and enjoy.)

Hi,
"Of course there is" --> if so, give me a standard reference where "stable software" is defined.

And trying to define what "stable" means by giving examples of what it does not mean might take a long...

Regards,

MN

[SMG]

"Unstable" is an English word, and AFAIK there is no specific meaning for "unstable" when used with "software".

Then why did you use it and expect us to understand what you meant by it when you did not provide your definition for it? That is a rhetorical question. I do not want to know why you can not just put unstable software into your favorite search engine to find out what others believe that to mean.

I did a quick search and here is one example What’s the etymology of the word “unstable”, in the context of software? and here is another Stable vs stable: what ‘stable’ means in software.

Your description does not align with those or my past experience in the software industry. Your definition indicates there is no difference between an alpha and beta version of Linux Mint and the final release which is rather unusual definition. That's why I asked for your definition. You have explained your definition that you believe all software is unstable so no more discussion is needed.