Did The Elegance Die?

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DasFox
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Did The Elegance Die?

Post by DasFox »

First let me get this post off on the right foot, I think the Mint team is doing a great job, but the elegance is dying.

After all look at the GDM login for 7 then look at it in 8, it's gone and the excuse is, that Ubuntu did this. Ok great Ubuntu removed the option to have a GDM setup, so Mint should of figured a way to put it back and keep the tradition of the 'Elegance' alive.

You know we get a lot of excuses as users around here about this being Ubuntu, that being Ubuntu, etc. I just want to use an Ubuntu based distro, meaning that Mint is based in some parts off of, not all, so what about some originality? Anyhow, please don't take this as a rude remark, I just want to make a point is all, please don't be offended, it's not my intentions.

Ok we're just talking about eye-candy I know and for what it's all worth, of course it's not the most important aspect, of course when it gets down to it, I'd take performance and stability over eye-candy any day of the week, but then again that's not the issue either, because we seem have performance and stability going for us already.

So what is it? I guess you could call it boredom and when it's time to tinker I like to make something look cool to suite my tastes, I think it's part of the Linux tradition, 'CUSTOMIZATION'! It's like that show car you built, all decked out, cool paint and goodies...

Well anyhow, looking at Gloria and then Helena one has to wonder, where did the Elegance go? :roll:
Lumenary
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Lumenary »

Howdy...


DasFox wrote:After all look at the GDM login for 7 then look at it in 8, it's gone and the excuse is, that Ubuntu did this.
Actually, the new GDM isn't "Ubuntu's fault." If you want to "blame" (although that word is a bit harsh - I'll get to why in a second) someone, point the finger at the GNOME developers.

DasFox wrote:Ok great Ubuntu removed the option to have a GDM setup, so Mint should of figured a way to put it back and keep the tradition of the 'Elegance' alive.
So here's where I say that the word "blame" is a bit harsh...


I once thought exactly as you do. One can imagine how perplexed (and disappointed - at least initially) I was when I was first greeted by GDM after installing Helena. However, once I did some research on the topic, I understand why the change was made in Ubuntu (and therefore, in Mint - and possibly dozens of other distros), and have since decided to cut the GDM developers some slack.


You see, unlike previous incarnations, the new GDM is based completely around X11. It is vastly different - from a technology standpoint - as compared to the old GDM. From the time that the new GDM greeter initialises, through the point that you enter your password and press the "Login" button, to the moment that you're presented with your desktop, an X session is already up-and-running.


This has two advantages:
  • 1. The time it takes to get from GRUB (or Lilo) to desktop is greatly reduced, because an active X session has already been initialised in parallel with other startup services, and
  • 2. GDM can take advantage of forthcoming technologies (such as touch-screen interfaces) via Xinput (X11's input device subsystem), which would would be difficult to do under the "old" GDM.
In fact, the new GDM is much more customisable than the old one; the world just hasn't caught up yet.


For example, we know that "touch" is all the rage right now. Sure, people have been playing around with it for a long time (some 20+ years), and it found a niche in places like kiosks, medical diagnostic equipment, etc., but until quite recently, the idea that TUIs (Touch User Interfaces) would go mainstream was still pretty fringe. Then the iPhone came along, and the HIG (Human Interface Guidelines) world hasn't been the same since...


So, imagine how difficult it would be to interact with GDM on a slate computing device (Apple is rumoured to be announcing one on January 27; Archos, Dell, HP, and IBM have already announced their own respective devices) without a keyboard, if there were no input device bindings available to GDM other than standard BIOS keyboard/mouse events, and no desktop compositing capability. You would literally need to write a different version of GDM for every model of touch screen/digitiser out there.


But with the new GDM, a whole new world of functionality is now available to it vis-a-vis user interface technology. Since the new GDM runs on top of X11, it can now take advantage of certain desktop compositing techniques (think "Compiz-Lite") and touch-input technology to display an on-screen keyboard, pass on-screen touch events to an input parser, and allow the user to login, all without using a "real" keyboard and mouse. Any input device that can be made to work with X11 will - in theory - work with GDM, without having to modify GDM itself.


And that is more elegant that any "theme" you can wrap around GDM.


So, understanding that first impressions mean a lot (after all, I was disappointed, too), I wouldn't fret too much about the new GDM being "not as customisable." The tools are coming; they just haven't made it here yet.


Gnome Shell (coming with GNOME 3.x), on the other hand, is a different story, and is IM-not-so-HO just about as "inelegant" as a piece of software can get without becoming unusable:
But I digress... ;-)



Best Regards,

Lumenary
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Last edited by Lumenary on Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
exploder
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by exploder »

Clem had a tough time with artwork for Mint 8 and the community helped decide what was going to be used. We just have not had as much activity in the artwork section of the forum. There are always going to be those that like or dislike the artwork that is selected. The gdm was changed by the gnome developers and it is supposed to make things better for people with physical limitations so they can have a good experience. I don't mind an inconvenience of a gdm theme if it benefits others and gives them the same abilities on the computer as I enjoy. The elegance did not die, it just changed a little. :)
El_Tate
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by El_Tate »

Hey... there's a little tool to configure the new GDM: GDM2 Setup

Image

The repo is ppa:gdm2setup/gdm2setup

And... sudo apt install python-gdm2setup

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1358026

I'll test it when i came back from holidays.
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Aevum
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Aevum »

exploder wrote:Clem had a tough time with artwork for Mint 8 and the community helped decide what was going to be used. We just have not had as much activity in the artwork section of the forum. There are always going to be those that like or dislike the artwork that is selected. The gdm was changed by the gnome developers and it is supposed to make things better for people with physical limitations so they can have a good experience. I don't mind an inconvenience of a gdm theme if it benefits others and gives them the same abilities on the computer as I enjoy. The elegance did not die, it just changed a little. :)
Couldn't agree better, really..
DasFox
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by DasFox »

Well as I said, I'll take performance over eye-candy, but I do like neat looking things, so I hope coolness sticks around.

Thanks for the replies...
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by lexon »

Since I have a life, I do not need elegance. Just provide good performance like you have been doing.

Lex
Lindows, Linspire, Freespire, Ubuntu, Mint 15 Cinnamon, Mint 16 XFCE, Mint 17 Cinnamon 64 bit. MInt 18 64 bit Cinnamon.
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Aevum
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Aevum »

lexon wrote:Since I have a life, I do not need elegance. Just provide good performance like you have been doing.

Lex
I do not agree with this at first sight, what do you exactly mean by that?
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DrHu
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by DrHu »

DasFox wrote:You know we get a lot of excuses as users around here about this being Ubuntu, that being Ubuntu, etc
Not so much an excuse as the reality of being beholden to Ubuntu

Ubuntu has a rigid release schedule (6 months), which they won't alter, despite any issues/problems
  • They also differ quite a bit from their Debian base, adding their own custom touches
--naturally, that process will cause problems, that cannot be easily resolved between Ubuntu<-->Debian, and any distribution that takes Ubuntu as its base (including Ubuntu's changes against Debian)

This is both the benefit and deficit of basing your distribution set on Ubuntu's base (derived mostly from Debian)
DasFox
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by DasFox »

lexon wrote:Since I have a life, I do not need elegance. Just provide good performance like you have been doing.

Lex
I hate people that talk about having a life or getting one, so PLEASE bend over so I can KICK you! LOL... ;)

Computing is a hobby for some... :)


DrHu wrote:
DasFox wrote:You know we get a lot of excuses as users around here about this being Ubuntu, that being Ubuntu, etc
Not so much an excuse as the reality of being beholden to Ubuntu

Ubuntu has a rigid release schedule (6 months), which they won't alter, despite any issues/problems
  • They also differ quite a bit from their Debian base, adding their own custom touches
--naturally, that process will cause problems, that cannot be easily resolved between Ubuntu<-->Debian, and any distribution that takes Ubuntu as its base (including Ubuntu's changes against Debian)

This is both the benefit and deficit of basing your distribution set on Ubuntu's base (derived mostly from Debian)

In all honesty this has nothing to do with Ubuntu, this is about ---> GNOME!

It's also about development and hacking. The Linux Mint team can make their own programs and hack others to change things to their liking, as in this case, creating their own GDM functionality, that's what this is about. ;)
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MALsPa
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by MALsPa »

For those of us who haven't seen it, what does the GDM log-in screen look like? Anybody mind posting a screen shot?

Lex, I "performance over elegance" for me, too; but even if you have a life you can still appreciate beauty. 8)
DasFox
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by DasFox »

MALsPa wrote:For those of us who haven't seen it, what does the GDM log-in screen look like? Anybody mind posting a screen shot?

Lex, I "performance over elegance" for me, too; but even if you have a life you can still appreciate beauty. 8)

MALsPa, ahh well said! --- if you have a life you can still appreciate beauty ;)

To me software is art.. :)
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Rizla »

Hi, I would just like to comment on the above, but like everyone else I'm not here to complain, merely to say it's a shame that the new login looks as it does. As a recent full-time mint user I originally installed mint 7 and was impressed with the gdm - i loved the border with the time and date, it looked swish and as good as anything Apple or MS have used now of in the past.

When I switched to Helena I immediately thought that the install hadn't worked properly such was my dismay! - it looked like it had suffered gigantism, either that or my graphic card resolution hadn't been picked up!

After a few days I read that this was necessary because of Ubuntu/Gnome - mint being on the same update path, and for the meantime I installed the wallpaper_daemon.py script that another user kindly created. This has served well until I recently came across the same system utility that El_Tate mentioned "gdm2setup" -

https://launchpad.net/gdm2setup

http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/S ... 3621.shtml

And the forum from where it appeared:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1358026&page=8

I've just installed this after removing the old .py script, it works very well and was very easy to install without resorting to the Terminal. From what I gather the app is going to be updated and features will be added to improve it - one specific item is the eventual inclusion of users customised themes, not just the default ones - Personally I'm able to read a font point size of 8 quite happilly and would prefer the login font to be a little smaller, not a point size 12 or watever the defualt is! man are those bullet points used in the password enormous, gigantic, huge or evenjust plain WAY TOO BIG! :D

Enyhu, I don't think it will be long till this area is improved more, if enough people want it, the linux community will surely provide, that's what linux is all about, isn't it?

L8rz, Rizla :)

P.S. And on a further note, it's a great thing to hear peoples oppinions, how will things ever imporve if no one is honest to show an oppinion!
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dwflo
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by dwflo »

Ther are two apps in the repos, Splash Screen and Starup Manager. Won't these do the same thing?

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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Lumenary »

Howdy...

dwflo wrote:Ther are two apps in the repos, Splash Screen and Starup Manager. Won't these do the same thing?
Unfortunately, no... They were written to interface with usplash and GRUB version 1.

The tools for the latest boot sequence frameworks haven't arrived yet, but are under development. We'll probably see something for Ubuntu Mxxx Myyy/Mint Jzzz...


Best Regards,

Lumenary
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by Superewza »

I wouldn't have said Elegance was the right word in the first place... Shiki is the perfect mix between casual/urban and utilitarian.

But the way i see it, if the log in screen is like that in the first place then you must be able to change it? I miss this one:

Image
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rich_roast
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by rich_roast »

About configuring GDM2; I heard this from Ubuntu Geek.
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Re: Did The Elegance Die?

Post by aliahlewis »

Thanks for the forum link as I was surfing for the tutorial or documentation on GDM2 configuration. If you have some more links or tutorial which shows different manuall configuration than please post here or mail me as I want it.
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