Happy at last

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th3bar0n
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Happy at last

Post by th3bar0n »

DISCLAIMER: It should be known that I think Windows 7 and MAC OSX are good operating systems. No-one can deny that these OSes just work out of the box (Ok, so you DO need to install Antivirus on Win7), and in general, they please the masses and fulfill what they want of a PC.

I'm a tinkerer at heart. I love to get the best out of my hardware. XBMC on my old XBOX (installed Debian on it at one point), Tomato Firmware for my Linksys, Rockbox on my old iPod, and so with that being said - Linux is the obvious choice of OS for me.

I've always known this to be the case from my teenage years when I only knew Windows, but had the oppurtunity to experience Linux with magazine cover disks of Redhat (5 I think!) and SuseLinux. Of course back then, the learning curve was huge and Linux a difficult beast to get running. Help was hard to come by.

My hardware has been through every release of Windows, three versions of Mac OS (including OSX86 on my PC of course!). I've probably installed around 15 linux distros over the time with the hope that I could tinker and have the perfectly customizable OS, but I have always drifited back to Bill's latest offerings.

My last two attempts were Linux Mint 6 and Ubuntu Karmic. Karmic was close to keeping me, but in the end the very poor handling of power management on my laptop (i.e. the thing wouldn't sleep half the time and then it had about a 20% chance of not waking up, or waking up and the keyboard not working). I celebrated Windows 7 and I think this is a big step up from XP and Vista. My frustration with Windows is that I just can't tinker!

I heard about the new Linux Mint (gnome) and installed. It's lovely. The sleep function works about 90% of the time (Although it does struggle if I run VMware). It's a lovely implementation of Linux and having finally moved all my stuff to cross-platform or cloud solutions, I'm happy.

What Keeps me:
-AWN - perfect dock - the thing I most wanted from OSX), which Windows 7 has also finally delivered).
-Compiz - wonderful handling of zooming and expose (both sorely missed from OSX in Windows)
-Wonderful Cross platform apps - Moneydance, Calibre, Google Chrome etc
-Fully customizable OS

Whilst I am happy, I feel that I can't recommend Linux to family and friends yet. Why?
-I installed from LiveCD (which had no problems). Ran the installation and rebooted - BAM, dropped to command line because of Display problems. I'm linux savvy enough to know how to manually edit X11 config to get round this.
-Open Office is great and I use it all the time, but to most, not a suitable replacement for MS Office. Documents transferred between OO and MSO do suffer formatting problems. I would not dare compose a customer document on OO knowing they will be using MS Office.
-Installation of Apps. Synatpic and it's derivatives are great - truely. The problem comes when you need to install something (Chrome Beta) for instance. This wants you to either change your sources.list or use terminal to chmod the Install.sh or whatever. Fine for you and I, but beyond 95% of the masses.
- Lack of iTunes. Yes, I know Songbird, Amorak etc. Not good enough for most. Can I use my Apple iPod Touch with these apps? Can I browse the App store or download tunes easily from them - no. You can't just tell someone that they should consider getting a creative labs MP3 player instead. The masses use iTunes, Linux doesn't and that's an issue.
- The time it takes to cross-train someone how to use Pidgin instead of MSN Messenger or Mplayer instead of Mediaplayer or Amorak rather than iTunes. How to connect to another PC with SMB mountpoints rather than "Network Neighbourhood".

I just cannot see a future for Linux past the enthusiast or low budget market. The thought of the company I work for moving to Linux is one that will NEVER happen and I think this is true for 95% of the corporate scene.

It's sad, but at least for me, I finally can call Linux home.

Thanks Mint team!
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DrHu
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Re: Happy at last

Post by DrHu »

th3bar0n wrote:I just cannot see a future for Linux past the enthusiast or low budget market. The thought of the company I work for moving to Linux is one that will NEVER happen and I think this is true for 95% of the corporate scene
I just cannot see a future for Linux past the enthusiast or low budget market.
Market size isn't always what is apparent or so obvious, example the cell phone business, check Google's Android OS, and others: Motorola, Nokia, Samsung etc
  • That is, it isn't always about the PC market or the business market
The thought of the company I work for moving to Linux is one...
Sure it is true, until it becomes untrue (something changes)

All that would have to happen is a complete shutdown of the Internet because of a Microsoft OS bug or a Zombie army
  • Then people would get the idea, that maybe depending on one OS (one supplier) is not only a bad business idea, but a bad decision in any case.
All one can do is point out that
  • The one vendor/supplier concept is bad for business
  • Propriety applications, vendor lock-in is bad for business
    --meaning forced updates/upgrades & the attendant associated applications: anti-virus, anti-spyware
I only mention what is bad for business, since they tend/trend towards the bottom line on most issues, it is about profit
--so if someone does show that it is cheaper, and just as reliable to be in Linux rather than the other OS, then not listening and agreeing to vendor lock-in, is their decision

Smarter companies that build their infrastructure with Linux, rather than those other OS product lines, will be the beneficiaries of those failed business decisions
--I am thinking Google here, as an example..
  • The famous winners and losers quandary..
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Midnighter
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Midnighter »

th3bar0n wrote:DISCLAIMER: It should be known that I think Windows 7 and MAC OSX are good operating systems. No-one can deny that these OSes just work out of the box

Really? Funny, win7 couldn't see my ethernet or my soundcard, neither was brand new, and both fairly basic, so no, I can deny it works out of the box. I had to boot a linux live cd to get a net connection, and hunt down the drivers, which i also id'd with the live cd.
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Re: Happy at last

Post by LinuxRetard »

My linux usage: 1 week

My computer:
Intel d845GLVA mobo, Intel 1.7ghz Celeron (128kL2), 1gig Kingston ram, Seagate 40gig 7200 HD (80 pin cable), Aopen CRW2440 CDRW drive and Lite-On LTD163 DVD drive (40 pin cable), CTX VL700 17" monitor, Microsoft USB Intellimouse, PC Concepts Keyboard, Enlight case w/450watt PS.
Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 01)

Clean install (no dual boot).
Compiz not installed, no effects.
Latest bios for my motherboard.
Tested all installation media for any defects.
Ran RAM tests.
Double checked all hardware connections and jumpers.
Video ram settings tried: 256, 128, 64, 32, etc. Settled on 64mb with 8mb buffer.

Glxgears:
Small window: 1024 frames in 5.0 seconds = 204.784 FPS
Max window: 213 frames in 5.0 seconds = 42.399 FPS

My experience so far with Linux:
Finally figured out that "fast boot" in bios had to be disabled for any distro to load. "Plug&play" and almost everything else had to be disabled in bios also. Do not change video settings in bios after installed or might break distro or not have GUI.
Linux Mint 8 - freezes and breaks after installed. Poor flash video.
Ubuntu 9.10 - freezes and breaks after installed. Poor flash video.
Kubuntu 9.10 - cannot keep 1024x768 video resolution. Poor flash video.
Xubuntu 9.10 - freezes and breaks after installed. Poor flash video.
PCLinuxOS 2009.2 - Video resolution problems. Poor flash video.
PCLinuxOS LXDE 2009.4 - Bad video issues and breaks. Poor flash video.
Fedora 12 - 407 upgrades but upgrade fails. Poor flash video.
OpenSUSE 11.2 GNOME - Cannot get installed to try after trying all available settings.
Puppy Linux 4.3.1 - Great little OS for LiveCD but media freezes after installed to HD. Poor flash video.
Ubuntu 8.04 LTS - Various issues with flash video with various graphics drivers and flash packages. The only distro that had limited desktop effects working.
Kubuntu 9.04 - Okay. Flash somewhat improved with Konqueror browser.
Ubuntu 9.04 - Pretty good. Finally found one that is stable on my machine with no crashes or major problems. Youtube HD plays fine in Movie Player even at full screen, but not that great on Youtube site at 360p small frame. Hulu has sound but video freezes. Flash very slow and jerky on some sites in Firefox.

After reading the various forums here and on different sites, it is a shame the Intel integrated graphics cause so many problems. I bet this has caused a bunch of people to give up on Linux in frustration. Also, the advice given to just go buy new hardware probably does not help.

Now that I finally have a stable Linux distro installed, I think it is pretty cool. I greatly appreciate the time and effort people have put into making something to give away to others for free. I love Rhythmbox with last.fm, chess, Kbattleship, foobillard and all the various other programs. I was a huge fan of VLC, OpenOffice and other free software even before trying Linux. I also like how quick and easy it is to install and remove stuff in Linux with Synaptic and Terminal. I also don't miss the virus, spyware scans and all the other issues that come with Windows.

My only wish is that Youtube and Hulu would work better for me. I do wonder if flash video would work any better if I installed Windows? Like the poster of this thread, I also do not feel Linux is ready for the masses unless it is already installed and tested on a system with compatible hardware.
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Midnighter
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Midnighter »

The linux community has no say or control over flash, it's not an open-source product, and is completely at the mercy of the desires of Adobe.

I have an acer aspire 3610 laptop, with intel graphics, and I've had no probs. That said, when it comes to youtube and the like, i prefer to stop the vids from loading, and rip them down with the Video Downloadhelper extension. I have to download them watch them in my browser, may as well download them and keep them locally for later.
th3bar0n
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Re: Happy at last

Post by th3bar0n »

Midnighter,

The point I am trying to make is that for the majority of users, Windows 7 would be an easier install than linux and would give a completely functional OS in a quicker time. I too in the past have dropped to a linux livecd when using older versions of windows to get an odd piece of hardware and I find that Linux is (now) very compatible with various hardware.

I do remember however wrestling with ndiswrapper to get a wireless card working a couple years ago which was a pig. Granted, the problem is no open source or proprietary drivers mde available by the vendor, but then that's the point isn't it? How many devices can you pick up in the shop that say "Linux Mint compatible"? Another reason why mainstream acceptance is hard to come by.

I have a Laptop with two hard-drives. One has Win7 NTFS on it. I want to access it, so if I am in my old way of thinking, I open up "My computer" (ok, Places>computer), but it's not there. At this point 90% of people give up - it's true. I know that I cant mount it and can work out how to mount it, but like I say, you would have already lost the vast majority of people who don't want to google or use man pages or forums.

With regards to the previous post and Flash, yes it's closed source, but perhaps Adobe do not see Linux as a serious PC market force (no photoshop for example). Again, this sends signals.

I understand your point with the likes of Android etc and this is good. But how many people that have bought an iPhone suddenly decide to switch to a Mac? Not many I think.

I see linux gaining a little bit of traction in the next 5 years and would love to see it get significant mainstream PC market share. The netbook scene has sadly shown the truth, that people would rather pay a premium to have a 10 year old Microsoft OS installed than a current and fresh Linux OS.

Trust me, I love Linux in all it's glory and it has a place. It's just that I am both patient and excited by Linux's possibility, but for most a PC is just a tool, a means to browse facebook and watch some kid fall on his arse on youtube.

I use a MacMini with Plex for an HTPC. It looks beautiful and I've got friends who are like "Wow, I'd love to have that". But start talking about ripping DVD's, encoding to mkv, renaming episodes so that they scrape properly with thetvdb, making sure to update the library, downloading and installing the proper skin - I may as well be asking them to build the mars lander.

It's not that they are stupid, but they have no passion to devote time to having a great solution.

I know people who have great pimped out cars. I'd love to have the result, but have no desire to put in the work to learn how to do it (understand I have a busy job and two young kids!). I'm sure there are plenty of car forums where people are saying "Well why don't people change out their sound system for this new one!". My car gets me to work and back. When it goes wrong, I pay someone to fix it. I'm the same as 95% of car owners. 95% of people are happy with the Dell they bought with Windows 7 and send it back to them or pay someone when it breaks. I pay a plumber if I get a leak and a roofer if I am missing a tile, that's how it works.

You can't change human nature. For goodness sake, look at the argument when MS bring out office 2007! "Everything's moved, I can't use this". It doesn't matter that given time, you see it's actually quite a bit nicer than office 2003.

I'm not sure that a big virus outbreak would change the course of History. About 4-5 year ago, we had two such outbreaks which bought our entire office (of 250 people) down for 2 days. This makes no difference compared to the downtime of retraining employees to use linux. We can't use outlook 2007, we can't use MS office 2007, the software we develop only runs on Windows in fact our Intranet only works with IE, not even firefox!! and that's all that matters.

Anyways in someways it's nice to be using something that very few people can and do :-)
thebar0n
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Re: Happy at last

Post by LinuxRetard »

Midnighter... did you dual boot or do a clean install? Which Intel graphics do you have?
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Midnighter
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Midnighter »

LinuxRetard wrote:Midnighter... did you dual boot or do a clean install? Which Intel graphics do you have?

Laptop has been linux-only, but is currently dual-boot, my housemate needed to use it, so i re-installed windows for her.

Image

Specs: http://www3.dealtime.com/xPF-Acer_NOTEB ... _COMBO_XPH

it currently has the RAM bumped up to 2GIG, I had extra laying around. Battery is crap, currently only lasts about 30 minutes or so, but it is an ex-rental unit, so pretty good for what it is. Works nicely ripping DVDs ith Acidrip. :)
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Midnighter
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Midnighter »

th3bar0n wrote:Midnighter,

The point I am trying to make is that for the majority of users, Windows 7 would be an easier install than linux and would give a completely functional OS in a quicker time.

No, maybe for you, but no. I have buggerall issues wit my linux installs, and they give me functionality and ease of use that Windows never has. Win7 might be good for you, but don't go making blanket statements and expect people to just swallow them. You prefer win7, fine, we get it, so go play with it. Meanwhile, i'll be using the one that works with ALL my hardware, and gives me plenty of free options with software. As for Photoshop (I am SOOOO ******* sick of hearing that corpse get dragged up), how many households want to blow hundreds on a Photo-manipulation suite, that they'll rarely use? Businesses might use it, but don't assume average wage-earners want to blow $$ on something they'll rarely use. This bogus arguement gets dragged up every time some git tries to "prove" why linux doesn't cut it, and it's a straw-man arguement if ever there was one. If you prefer windows, use it. Use what suits you. But don't go slagging off at something just because you can't work with it. It's just sad.
Last edited by Oscar799 on Mon May 03, 2010 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Offensive language removed
LinuxRetard
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Re: Happy at last

Post by LinuxRetard »

Midnighter,

I have used Microsoft products for many years, not because I wanted to but because it was taught to me in school and really the only option. I built my first PC when Windows 98 came out. I felt like I was taken for $169 because the full install I bought was faulty. After speaking to MS on the phone they admitted I had a faulty version and sent me a plain white copy. Even though they did not seem very knowledgeable about their own product, at least they were nice and tried to be helpful. Since then I have built a few Microsoft PCs for myself and other people. I usually don't have any problems, like the poster was saying, because most hardware is designed for Windows and is labeled as such.

I do not understand why I have had so much trouble building a Linux computer. Maybe my hardware is faulty or not as compatible as yours for some reason? I have seen on the forums people with similar issues with the same integrated graphics that I have. All I know is my experience has been frustrating and I could understand why some people would give up on Linux. Now that I found a working copy for my system, it is fine. I still don't understand why the DVD icon disappears when you insert a disk but a CD does not, but I am new to Linux.

In the past, I have watched fellow computer science students and friends use Linux but it never really interested me because it reminded me of DOS and 5.25 disks. After watching the glowing reviews on Youtube about Ubuntu and the other distros, I thought I would give it a try. I am also tired of fixing my friends computers because they have viruses and other Microsoft related issues. I still could not recommend Linux to them because it would be the blind leading the blind at this point.

Being a new user I am seeing a common attitude with Linux users on these forums and on Youtube, you are all very defensive for some reason. Are you a disgruntled Microsoft employee or something? I think it is great that there is an alternative OS for the computer and I hope it gets much better. As you stated, I also do not need Photoshop but some people might. At this time, I have to agree with the poster that it still is not ready for the masses.

PS: Grow up and stop using foul language!
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Acid_1 »

LinuxRetard wrote:Midnighter,

I have used Microsoft products for many years, not because I wanted to but because it was taught to me in school and really the only option. I built my first PC when Windows 98 came out. I felt like I was taken for $169 because the full install I bought was faulty. After speaking to MS on the phone they admitted I had a faulty version and sent me a plain white copy. Even though they did not seem very knowledgeable about their own product, at least they were nice and tried to be helpful. Since then I have built a few Microsoft PCs for myself and other people. I usually don't have any problems, like the poster was saying, because most hardware is designed for Windows and is labeled as such.

I do not understand why I have had so much trouble building a Linux computer. Maybe my hardware is faulty or not as compatible as yours for some reason? I have seen on the forums people with similar issues with the same integrated graphics that I have. All I know is my experience has been frustrating and I could understand why some people would give up on Linux. Now that I found a working copy for my system, it is fine. I still don't understand why the DVD icon disappears when you insert a disk but a CD does not, but I am new to Linux.

In the past, I have watched fellow computer science students and friends use Linux but it never really interested me because it reminded me of DOS and 5.25 disks. After watching the glowing reviews on Youtube about Ubuntu and the other distros, I thought I would give it a try. I am also tired of fixing my friends computers because they have viruses and other Microsoft related issues. I still could not recommend Linux to them because it would be the blind leading the blind at this point.

Being a new user I am seeing a common attitude with Linux users on these forums and on Youtube, you are all very defensive for some reason. Are you a disgruntled Microsoft employee or something? I think it is great that there is an alternative OS for the computer and I hope it gets much better. As you stated, I also do not need Photoshop but some people might. At this time, I have to agree with the poster that it still is not ready for the masses.

PS: Grow up and stop using foul language!
I don't have too much of a disagreement with you. Hardware is dependent on who you buy it from. An Intel/nVidia combo will usually work pretty nice. Toss in an Intel WL n/g and a Creative sound card, you've got yourself a nice Linux machine that will work OotB with most distro's. But have an AMD/ATI combo with Broadcom and some obscure sound companies card, well, you may have some issues.

GIMP will suffice for most people, unless they are heavy into photography. That is where Photoshop shines. Not to say GIMP is bad. I do photography and I find it just fine.

And to finish off, whilst I do not support foul language, it is part of freedom of speech. And though I think that people shouldn't use it, having people self-censor for the sake of others is not really freedom of speech. It's not as if it is inflicting anyones rights.

That said, I have had luck with Windows 7 and Linux. Both work out of the box marvelously. The only thing with both is that I have to install nVidia drivers afterwards to get full function from them.

I bid you farewell, good sir.

PS: I have a Sager NP2096 for my PC.
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Midnighter
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Midnighter »

Dunno what "foul language" your whining about. Until that little whinge, I was taking you seriously. Grow a pair. And keep your whiny **** to yourself.
th3bar0n
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Re: Happy at last

Post by th3bar0n »

Midnighter,

Seeing that you've dismissed 90% of the points I made in my previous post in one big rant about how you don't like people talking about photoshop, I don't have a great deal of confidence that you will read this one.

You seem to have also missed the statement I made in both my posts, so I'll try to help you this time: I LOVE LINUX. If I were some Microsoft fanboy then I wouldn't have spent hours of my life porting what I can away from Microsoft. My point was simply that MS have made great strides with Win7 and it's a good step up for most.

I don't know why you feel the need to insult people who come here with valid comments. One of the strongest features of linux is the community base and acting like a complete idiot not only makes you look stupid and uneducated, but hampers the very thing you are trying to defend.

*** Waits for juvenile reply rant ***

Linuxretard, I agree with you 100%. I to am prepared to invest time to get my linux setup working exactly as I want. Conky for example is a massive application with thousands of possibilities. I am prepared to invest time in getting it exactly correct. Other things I expect to work flawlessly everytime (Sleep, Hibernate, GDM logon prompt rather than a command line, mounting of devices). Until these are fixed, as stated, linux is not ready for the masses

Linux mint 8 is the best I've used first and I am willing to persevere with the help of the community.

P.S. Having worked for 10 years in a corporate IT Support department, I think I understand the general PC business user's needs very well thank you.
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Re: Happy at last

Post by LinuxRetard »

Midnighter,

What sold me to try Linux is a bunch of kids on Youtube showing off their latest Linux distro and compiz effects. Given this is a public forum, you may wish to be considerate of that fact. I am not for censorship but maybe whining and foul language from the LinuxMint expert, with almost 300 posts, is a sign of an unprofessional product? If you are representative of the LinuxMint community, I do not see this distro lasting.

If you are not a disgruntled Microsoft employee, which I think you are, maybe you should just stop fantasizing about testicles and come out of the closet.
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Re: Happy at last

Post by feed3 »

Midnighter wrote:Dunno what "foul language" your whining about. .
err, should these
Midnighter wrote: As for Photoshop (I am SOOOO ******* sick of hearing that corpse get dragged up),
can be considered as foul language?? :| :|

Why so cared about win while you are here in LINUX mint forum?? Almost all linux distro forum i've visited before, there's always these kind of arguement. Soooo... sad.. :(
If possible, i think there should be one section EXCLUSIVELY for these kind of errr, arguement? discussions? or whatever it should be called so that someone who sick with that kind of thing would never ever read it accidentally and feels disturbed in any ways, or AT LEAST, we all will happy together at last (just like the title of this thread!!!). Go and fight about it outside please. Husse, moderator, or whoever it should be, pleaseee... i dont think i'm alone on this.. :(
Last edited by Oscar799 on Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited the quote for language
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Re: Happy at last

Post by Husse »

Foul and abusive language here by Midnighter - consider this a warning
There is absolutely no need to become aggressive and the kind of debate that we have in this topic is really meaningless
I'll lock the topic before it goes completely out of hand
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