Gnome3

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kvv
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Re: Gnome 3

Post by kvv »

Linux isn't Windows and that just because you are used to something working in a certain way doesn't mean that it is the best way for that thing to work.
I agree. But, Gnome2 was better than windows because of its great support for virtual desktops. I would like to argue that windows is better than gnome3 because it has okay support for virtual desktops (virtuawin), a better overview of the applications running, windows tiling and cascading and a simpler way of switching between applications. That argument you said is bullshit, because Gnome Shell and Unity don't have some basic features I need. Gnome2 and Windows are awesome in their own way for this kinda work, and I would probably switch to Windows if the software I need ran fine on it.
Finally, one of the Gnome team's statements was that removing a visible list of running applications removes distraction, makes users unnecessarily switch between apps less often and therefore increases productivity (or words to that effect). That sounded ludicrous until I got to the end of a large text document one day and realised I'd got it finished a lot quicker than I usually would have.

So to answer the original question, why have they removed panel switching? Because it really is better without (in my experience).
Cool for you. But for me, I sometimes have to work with 10 text files, 3 - 4 terminals, 10 - 20 tabs sometimes in separate browsers for easier grouping + 1 or 2 GUI softwares. Of course, I can do it in Unity, but it feels like a very bad headache.

Oh just wanted to add, Gnome 2 gave the flexibility to tailor your environment for one text file and 20 txt file jobs. In unity/gnome3, they effectively say that you should work with only one text file, and "20 txt files is bad for you mmkay? dont do 20 txt files mmkay?" (+1 to you if you got the reference :D)

Note: Unity and Gnome shell are equivalent as far as I am concerned. They are dumbed-down desktops which deliberately lack features and tell you how you should do your work.
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pluraldave
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Re: Gnome 3

Post by pluraldave »

kvv wrote: Gnome2 was better than windows because of its great support for virtual desktops. I would like to argue that windows is better than gnome3 because it has okay support for virtual desktops (virtuawin)
You have to be joking. One of, if not the defining feature of Gnome-shell is workspace management. You have actually used (a recent version of) Gnome-shell, right?

kvv
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Re: Gnome 3

Post by kvv »

No, you understood me wrongly. I never implied windows has better workspace management. I meant that windows has passable support for virtual desktops through virtuawin, while having better window management, which put together is better than what gnome3 offers.

Tbh, I really like the rest of gnome shell and unity, they have potential. If they only provide some way of handling multiple windows easily, I will have no qualms about using them.
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allypink
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Gnome3

Post by allypink »

Hello all.
Been playing with the live isos of gnome3 of late. Have tried ubuntu 11.04 and unity....... in three words... don't like it. Rather the original gnome3 any day; even with it's short-comings at the mo.
But what gives with nouveau? On the Fedora 15 version supplied by gnome from their website........ works perfectly. (shame you can't install from it.)
On the Suse version and Fedora's own version from their website; Suse won't work unless 'nomodeset' is invoked in the boot paras and Fedora won't work at all. When Suse boots up it's the standard gnome 'cause it doesn't have 3d support running vesa.
This nouveau is the pits. I mean every body I know loads the propriety driver at the first opportunity.

Rock on Mint.......... and by the by Clem..... don't mind the Gnome3 Shell at all. :P

You are now editing and moving posts?.............. why??.
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

allypink wrote:You are now editing and moving posts?.............. why??.
From the logs, you had a new topic or post in Chat about Linux & Other Distributions, then it was moved to this thread.

We have a lot of threads popping up lately about GNOME3 and Ubuntu 11.04, I assume it was moved here since it was relevant to the discussion and didn't necessary need it's own thread.

zapa
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Re: Gnome3

Post by zapa »

allypink wrote:Hello all.
But what gives with nouveau? On the Fedora 15 version supplied by gnome from their website........ works perfectly. (shame you can't install from it.)
You can install Gnome3 with Fedora15. I gave up Linux mint and installed Fedora 15 with Gnome 3 on x64.

It takes a while to get used to it, and i think with right keyboard shortcuts you can manage to do well... It's less, far less customizable than Gnome 2 or KDE but it's stable. Actually u really can't customize it almost at all except the background image. The one thing i hate and i can't do but to tweak it is to add programs to startup.

All in all i'll take Gnome 3 over Unity anytime! - tried both cand i couldn't stick with unity for more than 4 hrs...

You can download and intall it from: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-prerelease

glnagrom
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Re: Gnome3

Post by glnagrom »

I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

However, the thing that any one new to Gnome 3 needs to understand is that it has been designed from the ground up to fundamentally change the way people interact with their computers. You have to live with it for a few days to appreciate it.

No, you can't plop icons all over the desktop, nor can you minimize multiple windows to multiple confusing tabs on a cluttered panel at the bottom of the desktop. What you can do however is access all your programs and files at the touch of a button. Just hit the windows key and start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done. I can do it before I could even get my mouse over the right menu in gnome 2 (which I loved.) I also like the fact that if I have a file copying, an install running, a process running, and a torrent going--with a touch of one key, I can monitor all these processes in real time in reasonable sized windows. Then, with one click I can access any of them, start a new one, or return to my current task.

The problem a lot of people are having is that they are trying to get Gnome 3 to behave like windows, kde, or gnome 2. One of the big knocks it gets is that there is no minimize button, but what they fail to realize is that its been designed to never need to minimize. That is a radical departure to be sure, but for the average user not a bad one. With a typical monitor, Gnome 3 can easily accomodate 9-12 useful views--again available at one touch. And, if there are a series of windows you don't want to see, or that you want grouped together, just move them to another work space. The work spaces are infinitely flexible. They are made as you need them and taken up as you finish.

Actually, Gnome3 has led me to discover that my habitual minimizing, maximizing, and clicking at the bottom panel were born more of neurosis than necessity. Do I really need to minimize every window after every use and fish around for the next one? Nope. But, I never would have figured that out before Gnome3.

I have to admit I was a skeptical convert to Gnome 3. I loved Gnome 2 and actually converted to Linux because of it. But, having used Gnome 3 for a couple of weeks now, I won't be turning back. The very efficiency of its window management almost renders multiple desktops mute, but if you need them, they are there--quick, efficient, and elegant.

Frankly, having used Gnome2 (Mint and Ubuntu), KDE, Unity, Windows, and Macintosh--Gnome 3 to me is the most innovative change to the desktop environment since the GUI superceded DOS. But, it is a radical departure and may well prove to be too different for some users to adopt. However, in most cases this won't be because of the shortcomings of Gnome 3, but rather because of our own resistance to change. However, for those willing to do more than give it a 10 minute test drive and compare it to what they are used to, they may just find that there really is a better way to use a computer. Gnome 3 isn't like what we are used to because it wasn't trying to be. That's how true innovation happens. And make no mistake, Gnome 3 is true innovation.

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knuckles
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Re: Gnome3

Post by knuckles »

I write as normal Desktop User and here is my view of Gnome3:

I go some time back in my experience, in time I was a KDE user an has never intended to use gnome, but than KDE4.0 was coming, at the beginning I have tried to use that incomplete desktop but after all the crashings, lags.... I was tired and have changed to gnome, special Linux Mint 5, and I was more than happy, gnome2 is a great desktop and the the gtk applications are great to. When they announce gnome3 I was happy: yes they will try a big step and we got an new even better gnome desktop, but than came the announcement, no applets, no normal panels.... I would not judge the news after testing it, and was hoping that they will not make the same mistake that the KDE Project has done.

Now that Gnome3 is released I have tried it, the Ferdora spin-off and the one from openSUSE, how to say, I'm very disappointed. Ok the new Gnome-Shell is not so bad, it would be great for smaller devices, but for a big Desktop-Pc...rrrh for the moment the normal gtk application aren't even optimized for the new working experience. In my eyes the Gnome project has now made exactly the same mistake as KDE did. And before Gnome3 become a mature Desktop it would take some releases.

This situation forced me to try alternatives, and I’m back to KDE. KDE with there last version 4.6.2, I have a mature Desktop that works as a classic Desktop but can even customized that it work "similar" to the "new" shells, really KDE Plasma is very flexible. The gtk applications can be well integrated in the Qt4 environment, so I'm happy.

Perhaps I come back to gnome in 2-3 years, when KDE will release KDE5 an remake there old mistakes and gnome3 will be mature..... the history repeat itself.
Sorry for my BAD English!!

NormanF
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Re: Gnome3

Post by NormanF »

You can get the minimize, maximize and close buttons back with gconf-editor. But there's not much functionality.

Clem and co are going to have to rework the code to make GNOME 3 usable for every day users. And please restore the restart/shutdown button to the main menu.

People like a certain way of doing things. I hated the Windows 7 menu and I put back in the classic start menu. Why GNOME had to reinvent the wheel instead of improving on and extending its current desktop is beyond me.

A pretty toy won't work in the real world if GNOME 3 is short of the features most people expect to find in their OS.

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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

NormanF wrote: And please restore the restart/shutdown button to the main menu.
Press "Alt" after clicking on your name to bring up the menu, and "Suspend" will switch to "Power Off..".
You can also install the gnomeshell user extensions, the "alternative-status-menu" extension will enable "Power Off..." as the default option.
https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Extensions
Last edited by proxima_centauri on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added Link

zerozero
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Re: Gnome3

Post by zerozero »

i just found a video of GS running in a tablet and there, yes, it makes sense :D

http://www.jonnor.com/2011/04/introduci ... n-gnome-3/
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michaelzap
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Re: Gnome3

Post by michaelzap »

glnagrom wrote:I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

However, the thing that any one new to Gnome 3 needs to understand is that it has been designed from the ground up to fundamentally change the way people interact with their computers. You have to live with it for a few days to appreciate it.
^this +1

The really interesting thing about Gnome Shell is that it's not just a visual refresh or a layout reorganization. It's a much more fundamental change in the way that we interact with tasks on our computers. They've actually put quite a lot of thought into this, which is why to me it seems fundamentally different from Unity (which to me seems unbearably cluttered and distracting), despite many superficial similarities (dash to the left, exposé window view, etc.).

The key concept in Gnome 3 is FOCUS.

The way that they've tried to help users to maintain focus on the task at hand is to remove distractions while at the same time giving you fast and intuitive ways to switch among tasks (apps and workspaces). When I first tried Gnome 3 I was thinking of it as a visual layer (such as a Compiz cube), and I approached it skeptically. But after trying it for a while, I came away impressed and felt that (once it's finished and stable) it actually does an excellent job of getting out of your way.

Here's an example of how their design principles led to a decision that a number of people have raised questions about:
Why no window list or dock?

The Shell is designed in order to minimise distraction and interuption and to enable users to focus on the task at hand. A persistent window list or dock would interfere with this goal, serving as a constant temptation to switch focus. The separation of window switching functionality into the overview means that an effective solution to switching is provided when it is desired by the user, but that it is hidden from view when it is not necessary.
Is this for everyone? Probably not. For example, people who need to monitor several open windows at once probably shouldn't use Gnome Shell.

Does it cause some issues when using a touchpad or small screen? I think so. The existing keyboard shortcuts aren't sufficient to get around in Gnome Shell, so you do pretty much need a comfortable mouse.

But for some people (maybe even most people), Gnome Shell will be awesome. And it will get better, customization options and extensions will be added, etc. So don't lump it in with Unity and reject it without giving it a proper trial - the two are not at all the same.

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue using Xfce (happily) until Gnome 3 matures a bit and works flawlessly on Debian, at which point I may well switch...

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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

glnagrom wrote:Gnome 3 is true innovation.
"innovation"? :lol: It is better to laugh than cry... It's just an impracticable, unusable and unnecessary sh**, like Unity. Sorry.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

linuxviolin wrote:
glnagrom wrote:Gnome 3 is true innovation.
"innovation"? :lol: It is better to laugh than cry... It's just an impracticable, unusable and unnecessary sh**, like Unity. Sorry.
in·no·vate 1. Make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.

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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

proxima_centauri wrote:in·no·vate 1. Make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.
OK... if you want see it like this. :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

pony-tail
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Re: Gnome3

Post by pony-tail »

by glnagrom on Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:25 am
I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

I used Ubuntu ( unity ) for 2 weeks and it annoyed me more and more each day !
Then I installed Suse with Gnome 3 and gnome 3 shell and found that only slightly less irritating .
I am still playing with Gnome shell but on Ubuntu 11.04 .
I say playing because it is not suitable for serious work on a computer - this may change as it matures - but , as it stands it is an interesting diversion and little more .
I have been using computers both at work and home for many years my first was an Apple IIe . I still used Macs at least some of the time til they dropped " classic " OS9.x compatibility then I shifted to Linux full time . I have been using Linux since the mid 90s mostly with Gnome -
So for me Gnome 3 and Gnome shell are interesting but not particularly useful .

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Re: Gnome3

Post by asymmetros »

I have to admit that i do not quite understand most of gnome3 fans arguments.
Switching applications by flicking my mouse up to the top left and clicking a large image now feels so much quicker and more efficient than using a panel or dock based switcher.
I am using a xfce4-panel, in top of the screen, with about 8 applications launchers on it. I can adjust panel's size as i wish, i can move it around or i can set it in autohide mode. Also, there is the MintMenu with a different set of "favourites" available. Many large images indeed.
Finally, one of the Gnome team's statements was that removing a visible list of running applications removes distraction, makes users unnecessarily switch between apps less often and therefore increases productivity (or words to that effect).
Great thought. But it's up to me if i have anywhere in the sceen those visible list of running applications, autohide that list or remove it and using Alt+Tab instead. I do not need Gnome 3 for this.
No, you can't plop icons all over the desktop
But i am keeping my desktop clear of all icons, no shortcuts there, nothing. Sorry Gnome devs, for not waiting you to tell me this!
Just hit the windows key and start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done
Or, just hit Alt+F2, start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done.
Or, just Shift +F2 (my gmrun shortcut), start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done.
Or, a preferrable combination of keys to start immediately any application. I keep my shortcuts written in conky -my reminder.
So, after the wheel, they are re-inventing the fire. Cheers. :lol:
Do I really need to minimize every window after every use and fish around for the next one? Nope
Me neither. I never minimize windows.

As a conclusion, i have to say that i do not foresee any possible advantages in following that "innovation". In fact, they are telling you what is best for you and they force you to follow these "suggestions"

ps: I do not think that Gnome shells differs a lot from unity.
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NormanF
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Re: Gnome3

Post by NormanF »

What's wrong with old school. Grab the GnomeXP script and you have a really old school GNOME! :lol:

Maybe too old for the GNOME 3 enthusiasts! :mrgreen:

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Re: Gnome3

Post by michaelzap »

asymmetros wrote:As a conclusion, i have to say that i do not foresee any possible advantages in following that "innovation". In fact, they are telling you what is best for you and they force you to follow these "suggestions"
I think that you hit the nail on the head there. I personally think that the way that Gnome Shell is organized works well for me, but it's not something that I couldn't already do on my own using any number of other methods. And for those who want to do something fundamentally different, it's a major design limitation.
asymmetros wrote:ps: I do not think that Gnome shells differs a lot from unity.
In terms of the supposed goals of the two projects, I think that you're mostly right. The difference is in the execution and follow-through. Gnome Shell actually does a pretty good job of minimizing distractions and "getting the desktop out of your way", whereas Unity looks similar but is much more confusing and difficult to navigate.

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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

asymmetros wrote:
Finally, one of the Gnome team's statements was that removing a visible list of running applications removes distraction, makes users unnecessarily switch between apps less often and therefore increases productivity (or words to that effect).
Great thought. But it's up to me if i have anywhere in the sceen those visible list of running applications, autohide that list or remove it and using Alt+Tab instead. I do not need Gnome 3 for this.
Plus, this is completely silly. "removes distraction"? Idiot.
michaelzap wrote:Gnome Shell actually does a pretty good job of minimizing distractions and "getting the desktop out of your way"
Really? I find it's almost exactly the contrary for me... :roll:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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