Gnome3

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zapa
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Re: Gnome3

Post by zapa »

allypink wrote:Hello all.
But what gives with nouveau? On the Fedora 15 version supplied by gnome from their website........ works perfectly. (shame you can't install from it.)
You can install Gnome3 with Fedora15. I gave up Linux mint and installed Fedora 15 with Gnome 3 on x64.

It takes a while to get used to it, and i think with right keyboard shortcuts you can manage to do well... It's less, far less customizable than Gnome 2 or KDE but it's stable. Actually u really can't customize it almost at all except the background image. The one thing i hate and i can't do but to tweak it is to add programs to startup.

All in all i'll take Gnome 3 over Unity anytime! - tried both cand i couldn't stick with unity for more than 4 hrs...

You can download and intall it from: http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-prerelease
glnagrom
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Re: Gnome3

Post by glnagrom »

I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

However, the thing that any one new to Gnome 3 needs to understand is that it has been designed from the ground up to fundamentally change the way people interact with their computers. You have to live with it for a few days to appreciate it.

No, you can't plop icons all over the desktop, nor can you minimize multiple windows to multiple confusing tabs on a cluttered panel at the bottom of the desktop. What you can do however is access all your programs and files at the touch of a button. Just hit the windows key and start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done. I can do it before I could even get my mouse over the right menu in gnome 2 (which I loved.) I also like the fact that if I have a file copying, an install running, a process running, and a torrent going--with a touch of one key, I can monitor all these processes in real time in reasonable sized windows. Then, with one click I can access any of them, start a new one, or return to my current task.

The problem a lot of people are having is that they are trying to get Gnome 3 to behave like windows, kde, or gnome 2. One of the big knocks it gets is that there is no minimize button, but what they fail to realize is that its been designed to never need to minimize. That is a radical departure to be sure, but for the average user not a bad one. With a typical monitor, Gnome 3 can easily accomodate 9-12 useful views--again available at one touch. And, if there are a series of windows you don't want to see, or that you want grouped together, just move them to another work space. The work spaces are infinitely flexible. They are made as you need them and taken up as you finish.

Actually, Gnome3 has led me to discover that my habitual minimizing, maximizing, and clicking at the bottom panel were born more of neurosis than necessity. Do I really need to minimize every window after every use and fish around for the next one? Nope. But, I never would have figured that out before Gnome3.

I have to admit I was a skeptical convert to Gnome 3. I loved Gnome 2 and actually converted to Linux because of it. But, having used Gnome 3 for a couple of weeks now, I won't be turning back. The very efficiency of its window management almost renders multiple desktops mute, but if you need them, they are there--quick, efficient, and elegant.

Frankly, having used Gnome2 (Mint and Ubuntu), KDE, Unity, Windows, and Macintosh--Gnome 3 to me is the most innovative change to the desktop environment since the GUI superceded DOS. But, it is a radical departure and may well prove to be too different for some users to adopt. However, in most cases this won't be because of the shortcomings of Gnome 3, but rather because of our own resistance to change. However, for those willing to do more than give it a 10 minute test drive and compare it to what they are used to, they may just find that there really is a better way to use a computer. Gnome 3 isn't like what we are used to because it wasn't trying to be. That's how true innovation happens. And make no mistake, Gnome 3 is true innovation.
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knuckles
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Re: Gnome3

Post by knuckles »

I write as normal Desktop User and here is my view of Gnome3:

I go some time back in my experience, in time I was a KDE user an has never intended to use gnome, but than KDE4.0 was coming, at the beginning I have tried to use that incomplete desktop but after all the crashings, lags.... I was tired and have changed to gnome, special Linux Mint 5, and I was more than happy, gnome2 is a great desktop and the the gtk applications are great to. When they announce gnome3 I was happy: yes they will try a big step and we got an new even better gnome desktop, but than came the announcement, no applets, no normal panels.... I would not judge the news after testing it, and was hoping that they will not make the same mistake that the KDE Project has done.

Now that Gnome3 is released I have tried it, the Ferdora spin-off and the one from openSUSE, how to say, I'm very disappointed. Ok the new Gnome-Shell is not so bad, it would be great for smaller devices, but for a big Desktop-Pc...rrrh for the moment the normal gtk application aren't even optimized for the new working experience. In my eyes the Gnome project has now made exactly the same mistake as KDE did. And before Gnome3 become a mature Desktop it would take some releases.

This situation forced me to try alternatives, and I’m back to KDE. KDE with there last version 4.6.2, I have a mature Desktop that works as a classic Desktop but can even customized that it work "similar" to the "new" shells, really KDE Plasma is very flexible. The gtk applications can be well integrated in the Qt4 environment, so I'm happy.

Perhaps I come back to gnome in 2-3 years, when KDE will release KDE5 an remake there old mistakes and gnome3 will be mature..... the history repeat itself.
Sorry for my BAD English!!
NormanF
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Re: Gnome3

Post by NormanF »

You can get the minimize, maximize and close buttons back with gconf-editor. But there's not much functionality.

Clem and co are going to have to rework the code to make GNOME 3 usable for every day users. And please restore the restart/shutdown button to the main menu.

People like a certain way of doing things. I hated the Windows 7 menu and I put back in the classic start menu. Why GNOME had to reinvent the wheel instead of improving on and extending its current desktop is beyond me.

A pretty toy won't work in the real world if GNOME 3 is short of the features most people expect to find in their OS.
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

NormanF wrote: And please restore the restart/shutdown button to the main menu.
Press "Alt" after clicking on your name to bring up the menu, and "Suspend" will switch to "Power Off..".
You can also install the gnomeshell user extensions, the "alternative-status-menu" extension will enable "Power Off..." as the default option.
https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Extensions
Last edited by proxima_centauri on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added Link
zerozero
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Re: Gnome3

Post by zerozero »

i just found a video of GS running in a tablet and there, yes, it makes sense :D

http://www.jonnor.com/2011/04/introduci ... n-gnome-3/
Image

[ bliss of ignorance ]
michaelzap
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Re: Gnome3

Post by michaelzap »

glnagrom wrote:I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

However, the thing that any one new to Gnome 3 needs to understand is that it has been designed from the ground up to fundamentally change the way people interact with their computers. You have to live with it for a few days to appreciate it.
^this +1

The really interesting thing about Gnome Shell is that it's not just a visual refresh or a layout reorganization. It's a much more fundamental change in the way that we interact with tasks on our computers. They've actually put quite a lot of thought into this, which is why to me it seems fundamentally different from Unity (which to me seems unbearably cluttered and distracting), despite many superficial similarities (dash to the left, exposé window view, etc.).

The key concept in Gnome 3 is FOCUS.

The way that they've tried to help users to maintain focus on the task at hand is to remove distractions while at the same time giving you fast and intuitive ways to switch among tasks (apps and workspaces). When I first tried Gnome 3 I was thinking of it as a visual layer (such as a Compiz cube), and I approached it skeptically. But after trying it for a while, I came away impressed and felt that (once it's finished and stable) it actually does an excellent job of getting out of your way.

Here's an example of how their design principles led to a decision that a number of people have raised questions about:
Why no window list or dock?

The Shell is designed in order to minimise distraction and interuption and to enable users to focus on the task at hand. A persistent window list or dock would interfere with this goal, serving as a constant temptation to switch focus. The separation of window switching functionality into the overview means that an effective solution to switching is provided when it is desired by the user, but that it is hidden from view when it is not necessary.
Is this for everyone? Probably not. For example, people who need to monitor several open windows at once probably shouldn't use Gnome Shell.

Does it cause some issues when using a touchpad or small screen? I think so. The existing keyboard shortcuts aren't sufficient to get around in Gnome Shell, so you do pretty much need a comfortable mouse.

But for some people (maybe even most people), Gnome Shell will be awesome. And it will get better, customization options and extensions will be added, etc. So don't lump it in with Unity and reject it without giving it a proper trial - the two are not at all the same.

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue using Xfce (happily) until Gnome 3 matures a bit and works flawlessly on Debian, at which point I may well switch...
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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

glnagrom wrote:Gnome 3 is true innovation.
"innovation"? :lol: It is better to laugh than cry... It's just an impracticable, unusable and unnecessary sh**, like Unity. Sorry.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

linuxviolin wrote:
glnagrom wrote:Gnome 3 is true innovation.
"innovation"? :lol: It is better to laugh than cry... It's just an impracticable, unusable and unnecessary sh**, like Unity. Sorry.
in·no·vate 1. Make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.
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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

proxima_centauri wrote:in·no·vate 1. Make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products.
OK... if you want see it like this. :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
pony-tail
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Re: Gnome3

Post by pony-tail »

by glnagrom on Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:25 am
I couldn't agree with pluraldave more. Most of the people who are objecting to Gnome 3 have either not tried it--or at best have given it a "quickie" test drive.

I used Ubuntu ( unity ) for 2 weeks and it annoyed me more and more each day !
Then I installed Suse with Gnome 3 and gnome 3 shell and found that only slightly less irritating .
I am still playing with Gnome shell but on Ubuntu 11.04 .
I say playing because it is not suitable for serious work on a computer - this may change as it matures - but , as it stands it is an interesting diversion and little more .
I have been using computers both at work and home for many years my first was an Apple IIe . I still used Macs at least some of the time til they dropped " classic " OS9.x compatibility then I shifted to Linux full time . I have been using Linux since the mid 90s mostly with Gnome -
So for me Gnome 3 and Gnome shell are interesting but not particularly useful .
asymmetros
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Re: Gnome3

Post by asymmetros »

I have to admit that i do not quite understand most of gnome3 fans arguments.
Switching applications by flicking my mouse up to the top left and clicking a large image now feels so much quicker and more efficient than using a panel or dock based switcher.
I am using a xfce4-panel, in top of the screen, with about 8 applications launchers on it. I can adjust panel's size as i wish, i can move it around or i can set it in autohide mode. Also, there is the MintMenu with a different set of "favourites" available. Many large images indeed.
Finally, one of the Gnome team's statements was that removing a visible list of running applications removes distraction, makes users unnecessarily switch between apps less often and therefore increases productivity (or words to that effect).
Great thought. But it's up to me if i have anywhere in the sceen those visible list of running applications, autohide that list or remove it and using Alt+Tab instead. I do not need Gnome 3 for this.
No, you can't plop icons all over the desktop
But i am keeping my desktop clear of all icons, no shortcuts there, nothing. Sorry Gnome devs, for not waiting you to tell me this!
Just hit the windows key and start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done
Or, just hit Alt+F2, start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done.
Or, just Shift +F2 (my gmrun shortcut), start typing and--bam there it is. Hit enter. Done.
Or, a preferrable combination of keys to start immediately any application. I keep my shortcuts written in conky -my reminder.
So, after the wheel, they are re-inventing the fire. Cheers. :lol:
Do I really need to minimize every window after every use and fish around for the next one? Nope
Me neither. I never minimize windows.

As a conclusion, i have to say that i do not foresee any possible advantages in following that "innovation". In fact, they are telling you what is best for you and they force you to follow these "suggestions"

ps: I do not think that Gnome shells differs a lot from unity.
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NormanF
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Re: Gnome3

Post by NormanF »

What's wrong with old school. Grab the GnomeXP script and you have a really old school GNOME! :lol:

Maybe too old for the GNOME 3 enthusiasts! :mrgreen:
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Re: Gnome3

Post by michaelzap »

asymmetros wrote:As a conclusion, i have to say that i do not foresee any possible advantages in following that "innovation". In fact, they are telling you what is best for you and they force you to follow these "suggestions"
I think that you hit the nail on the head there. I personally think that the way that Gnome Shell is organized works well for me, but it's not something that I couldn't already do on my own using any number of other methods. And for those who want to do something fundamentally different, it's a major design limitation.
asymmetros wrote:ps: I do not think that Gnome shells differs a lot from unity.
In terms of the supposed goals of the two projects, I think that you're mostly right. The difference is in the execution and follow-through. Gnome Shell actually does a pretty good job of minimizing distractions and "getting the desktop out of your way", whereas Unity looks similar but is much more confusing and difficult to navigate.
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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

asymmetros wrote:
Finally, one of the Gnome team's statements was that removing a visible list of running applications removes distraction, makes users unnecessarily switch between apps less often and therefore increases productivity (or words to that effect).
Great thought. But it's up to me if i have anywhere in the sceen those visible list of running applications, autohide that list or remove it and using Alt+Tab instead. I do not need Gnome 3 for this.
Plus, this is completely silly. "removes distraction"? Idiot.
michaelzap wrote:Gnome Shell actually does a pretty good job of minimizing distractions and "getting the desktop out of your way"
Really? I find it's almost exactly the contrary for me... :roll:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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Re: Gnome3

Post by pony-tail »

I think that the reason it irritates me so much is that I am not actually into Computers as a hobby / pastime - I just want to hop in get my s#!t done and get on with things I really like ( like offroading and fishing ) . My computer is not a toy , it has a job to do.
These new interfaces are not more efficient so therefore for me at least are not an improvement . They may be interesting to play around with when I have some spare time but
really not suited to a machine I have to do work on . The "i" generation can take their toys and play - but I have things to do .
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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

I already posted this elsewhere in the forum today but I think it is quite at its place here also... :roll: So please, do not blame me to repeat myself here. :? :wink:

If you want another reasons why GNOME 3 is cr** read on:
k3rnel.net: Why I'm Sick and Tired of Gnome Shell:
I’ve been using Gnome Shell (Gnome 3) exclusively for 2 weeks today, and while I do have a few good words to say about it… today’s the day I’m switching to KDE once and for all.

Gnome Shell is Defective By Design, and I’m here to tell you why.

NetworkManager […]

And before you tell me it’s an unfinished product, these decisions are there by design, and as far as I know, I can’t right click anything to prompt for more options.

Alt Tab vs Alt | […]

Trying to Alt | between the windows is an absolute nightmare. […]

One quick way to fix this? Bring back the old Task Switcher, at the bottom of the screen. Where it’s been the past 10 or so years.

Add programs to the menu […]

Notification Area should be visible *always*

The notification area does not do its job. If you missed the notification, it hides and does not remind you of a missed notifications. […]

Right Click on Desktop Can’t change the Wallpaper […]

I really miss TimeZones […]

Defaults are just insane […]

Battery Monitor annoyance […]

Closing Words

Gnome’s “Simplicity” is down right insulting to a computer enthusiast. It makes it impossible to do simple tasks that used to flow naturally, and it’s made dozens of bizarre “design decisions”, like hiding Power Off behind the “Alt” key.

The lack of a taskbar, and hiding the notification area are extremely annoying, and the only reason I lasted this long is because I don’t have time to switch from Desktop-to-Desktop mid-week.

I think KDE is done re-installing. Good riddance, Gnome 3.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

And here's why GNOME3 is good by the same reviewer, in case someone was interested -> http://k3rnel.net/2011/05/01/what-i-act ... ome-shell/
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linuxviolin
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Re: Gnome3

Post by linuxviolin »

proxima_centauri wrote:And here's why GNOME3 is good by the same reviewer, in case someone was interested -> http://k3rnel.net/2011/05/01/what-i-act ... ome-shell/
The link was also given in my post, seek well... But I guess you have misunderstood his article. Quote from it:
I think Gnome 3 is definitely worth it for a lot of people. Just not me. And it hurts, since I’ve actually used Gnome exclusively for over 6 years.
And in a comment in response to a poster:
I did try it, I didn’t like the right side dock (It wasn’t the position, it doesn’t really act like the task bar).

KDE 4 was incomplete, where as Gnome 3 claims to be complete, with a lot of the features removed for “simplicity” (Or because the users are too dumb to use them)
... :wink:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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proxima_centauri
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Re: Gnome3

Post by proxima_centauri »

I've been using GNOME3 for almost two weeks now, and I appreciate the direction the GNOME3 developers are moving toward. Sure, GNOME3 is in it's infancy - but despite what some users view as an overwhelming lack of features, I'm enjoying the simplicity and fluidity of the system.

Many criticisms are guilty of not being fully aware of the different features or key combinations, for instance the "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE IS NO SHUTDOWN OPTION", "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S NO MINIMIZE AND MAXIMIZE BUTTONS" rants. Another one is lack of desktop on the background, all one needs to do is enable Nautilus to handle the desktop with Gnome Tweak Tool, or edit the value yourself in dconf-editor. Granted, sometimes these hidden settings are not intuitive, but that's why you read the manual or learn about the available extensions to modify gnome-shell. You can't expect to know the in's and out's of a brand new DE without doing research.
https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet
https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Extensions

I will agree more work is necessary before a perfected experience is possible, an area I feel could use more development is the notification area at the bottom right. Though overall, GNOME3 is extremely fluid and lightweight compared to my previous GNOME2.32 + compiz. It just feels good to use, proper delays and polish in activating the gnome-shell and selecting windows/applications/workspaces.

I understand that it isn't for everyone, and that some people will simply prefer alternate desktop styles - that's okay, I have criticisms of my own. But I do feel the criticism of GNOME3 is a bit harsh and one sided, with a under representation for the good or positive aspects. I feel the developers certainly deserve some credit for their efforts.
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