Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

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hairybiker
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Poor review on OMG

Post by hairybiker » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:10 am

Here http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/linu ... test-hits/.

He slates it because it is not exactly the same as his (installed) Ubuntu :lol:
He dislike the fact you supply 4 media players - so what I have more than that installed & in use :D
There are some interesting replies but ...

I am still in two minds over the new version I keep using it & I keep coming back to this version (11). I have them installed side by side with separate home folders for each user (same /home partition) to allow me to test without messing up this one.

I dislike the new G3 system, no customisation of the panels etc, but that isn't the fault of Mint, the crashing of the desktop when you open the menu (maybe that is?) the loss of the mouse etc. But I will keep playing until the release version is out to see if I can live with it.

I know at least 2 people who will be moving to it from U11.10 when it is released :D

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Fandangio
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Re: Poor review on OMG

Post by Fandangio » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:25 am

I was just reading the same article and whilst I do understand some of his arguments I agree that there seems to be a fair amount of bias toward Ubuntu.

What I still don't get with Mint 12 though is the desire to take a DE (Shell) and make it look and react like a "traditional" desktop. If Mint wants a traditional DE then there are still some very good ones available (XFCE and KDE to name but two). Why take something then fudge it to look like something else. I am really failing to see the rationale.
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Imhoteps
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Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by Imhoteps » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:07 am

I agree with author in part of some Frakensteinian creation
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/linu ... test-hits/
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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by TBABill » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:48 am

I think the author went way overboard with making the down side of the appearance sound like an insult rather than some type of constructive feedback to be taken or left by Clem and team. While I also agree that the current desktop of Mint 12 is not a great turnout, possibilities exist to make a tremendous amount of positive change as users provide feedback and suggestions.

I think a point many like the author miss is Clem and team is a very very small team, unlike the ubuntu dev team. I commend Clem for listening so well to his user base and doing all he could to implement the sentiments of the users. Nobody can dispute his devotion to the community.

Where I think there is room for improvement is moving Mint from being like everybody else, which appears difficult within Gnome Shell. However, it's very possible to do as evidenced by http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=205&t=85775 It's not an exact replacement of Mint using Gnome 2, but nothing will be. However, it makes it obvious that the modularity of Gnome 3 can be exploited in such a way using extensions that the Gnome 3/Gnome Shell Mint desktop very closely mimics the look and some of the behaviors the users so desperately wanted to keep if at all possible.

Hopefully as extensions continue to be built we'll see Gnome 3 evolve into a great environment as each distro puts its twist on it. Mint can improve a great deal and provide users what they want with the look, feel and polish the Mint team has always placed, but the default Mint 12 desktop isn't quite up to the visual and functional standard the distro has always maintained. In that link above, promise is shown that maybe we can tweak 12 to be just what we hoped it would become.

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Imhoteps
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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by Imhoteps » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:04 am

After reading omgubuntu I`ve started to think about if it actually was a good idea - not to implement "pure" Gnome Shell? Gnome2 is dead, Unity is not a "way" as well as KDE/XFCE/etc. Well Gnome3 Shell then. Maybe umwrong. Just thoughts of mine.
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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by TBABill » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:09 am

Hard to say what's the best route right now. Since we're treading in new waters only time will tell. At least it's nice to know we have options. It is frustrating for Gnome users since it's the largest user base of all the DE's, but so too was it frustrating for KDE users from KDE3 to KDE4. We just have to watch and use what works in the meantime.

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Re: Poor review on OMG

Post by TBABill » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:36 pm

I feel like they're trying to ease users into Gnome 3 instead of dumping them into it. Gnome Shell (default config) is a love it or hate it type of thing and it seems like so many are hating it in other distros, and Clem must not like it much either or why would he change it, that it makes sense to tweak to usability rather than suffer through lost community members. We don't have the luxury of choosing various Mint versions of Mint 12 the way Ubuntu users can switch between X/L/K/Ubuntu with a fully customized desktop of each, so making Mint 12 (Gnome) a hit seems imperative to do it right.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by synaptic_d » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:18 pm

Mint 12 allows me to create the perfect DE, for me. I run a mix between vanilla gnome-shell and full MGSE. It's the perfect environment for my daily business operations and regular day to day use. My productivity has increased as I can navigate around and do things quicker with this DE. Mint has always taken things and made them better. I liked gnome-shell but the Mint team made it even better. I like the direction they are going. As long as they continue doing that, I will be sticking with Mint. There are still things that can be improved with Gnome 3 in general, but that will happen as it matures.

From the article it's seems like the person, just as many others, does not understand what the gnome team and Mint team are working towards. Time does not stand still, therefor technology and the way we interact with technology is constantly changing. The Mint team wants to keep up with those changes along with providing an OS that works well for a wide range of people. I think as long as they continue that path, they will continue to be successful.

I'm very picky and pretty much tweak any technology to my liking. When it comes to Mint, it is as close to a perfect Linux distro (for me) than any other distro has come. It takes the least tweaking to get the DE I want and it just works.

With change there will always be complaints, that's just life. Most of my clients did not like moving from WinXP to Win7, it was change and they didn't like it. Once they understood the change and reasons for it, they saw how that change improved how they do things.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by Oscar799 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:19 pm

Two threads covering the same subject merged
Image

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by gsmanners » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:22 pm

Jon Meek has a lot to learn about journalism. That article starts out kind of rambling about this and that instead of getting straight to the point. Which I find really annoying. We endure six short paragraphs (written in the style of a hyper fanfic writer) before finally being told what the problem is: Mint 12rc isn't his style of distro. He draws a vague connection between Mint and a "best of" album (as if that were ubiquitous), clearly assuming that we all simply hate that style as much as him.

And oh no! Four media players! Whatever will I do with them all? Here's a little fun fact: I'm currently running a Debian+Xfce install with at least five media players. I'm using VLC, mplayer, Audacious, Ex Falso, Quod Libet, and I'm thinking about installing moc. Six! I think his head might explode, but I have this strange desire to have the right tool for the right job. I don't suppose Jon has ever heard that saying. What exactly is wrong with having more choices at your fingertips? It's too much like a "power ballad." Excuse me? Power ballad. Power ballad. Don't you just hate that? ... Um, what's a power ballad? Is that supposed to be... bad?

And look out: here comes the "Frakensteinian" appearance of Mint. Okay, maybe he has a point there. It is a little bit jarring. Visually. Okay. Who cares?

He then laments Mint's "laundry list" of clever modifications to Gnome 3. Is this really a complaint? Duplication of usefulness? Is that really a bad thing? The Gnome 3 extensions are actually making Gnome useful again (something Gnome hasn't seen in many years).

He then vaguely complains about "original problems" (without going into detail of course), then repeats his specious complaint about Mint being a "best of" style that is not to his liking.

This isn't a critique, this is someone fishing for complaints. These are just ramblings of someone desperate for something to complain about. If this is the worst thing people complain about with respect to Mint, then Mint is looking pretty darn good IMHO.

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bimsebasse
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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by bimsebasse » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:34 pm

I think a valid point he has in all the unqualified ranting is concerning the icons and the theme, the overall look. The first thing I did installing Mint was pretty much change its appearance completely. It's just not an attractive looking distro if you care about design and looks - but it's what's under the surface that makes Mint such a great distro to use. Also, there used to be a time when Mint's Software Manager could look down on Ubuntu Software Center - now, sluggishness aside, it's the other way round.

Apart from that the "article" reads like a typical OMGUbuntu fanboy rant and shouldn't be taken all too seriously.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by fraxinus_63 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:14 pm

bimsebasse wrote:Apart from that the "article" reads like a typical OMGUbuntu fanboy rant and shouldn't be taken all too seriously.
There is hardly anything of substance in this "article". It is written in a rather self-regarding way, and I suspect that the author is probably secretly rather proud of how clever he is. His analysis completely ignores the fact that the Mint 12 interface - however well it works out for us all in the end - is an attempt at being practical and at heeding the needs and concerns of Mint's user base.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by michaelzap » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:30 pm

fraxinus_63 wrote:
bimsebasse wrote:Apart from that the "article" reads like a typical OMGUbuntu fanboy rant and shouldn't be taken all too seriously.
There is hardly anything of substance in this "article". It is written in a rather self-regarding way, and I suspect that the author is probably secretly rather proud of how clever he is. His analysis completely ignores the fact that the Mint 12 interface - however well it works out for us all in the end - is an attempt at being practical and at heeding the needs and concerns of Mint's user base.
+1

I get OMGUbuntu via RSS and after I read this crappy article I was going to write a scathing reply (but didn't because I don't like the way that you have to sign in with a third-party service to leave comments there now). OMGUbuntu is usually a lot better than this dreck. The author is ignorant and arrogant (his name is quite inappropriate), and he did no research at all to validate or disprove his knee-jerk opinion.

Mint 12 is by far the most useful respin of GNOME Shell that I've tried, and this is exactly what the GNOME devs want people to do with it (modify and extend Shell so that it works better for everyone).

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by z06gal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:21 pm

fraxinus_63 wrote:
bimsebasse wrote:Apart from that the "article" reads like a typical OMGUbuntu fanboy rant and shouldn't be taken all too seriously.
There is hardly anything of substance in this "article". It is written in a rather self-regarding way, and I suspect that the author is probably secretly rather proud of how clever he is. His analysis completely ignores the fact that the Mint 12 interface - however well it works out for us all in the end - is an attempt at being practical and at heeding the needs and concerns of Mint's user base.

Yep and I am betting the Mint 13 will be awesome when Clem gets everything ironed out. I really wish people would wait for the finished product before they crucify Clem. I just don't understand all the hate unless it is because most just don't like change.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by MALsPa » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:42 pm

z06gal wrote:I just don't understand all the hate unless it is because most just don't like change.
#1 at DistroWatch. Maybe the hate comes with the territory.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by bimsebasse » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:48 pm

I think the hate towards MGSE comes mainly from traditional desktop Mint users. Gnome 3 or Gnome Shell is not Mint's invention, though, and the hate should be directed at Gnome. It would still be pointless and somewhat immature, but at least aimed in the right direction.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by craig10x » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:47 pm

yes...it's because there are some that just can't stand any change...they want Clem to wave a magic wand and make MGSE exactly the same as the old gnome 2...and that is just not possible...

it's also why about half of ubuntu users freaked out about unity....i have been running unity with ubuntu 11.10 and after about 30 minutes i was completely comfortable with it and find it fine to use....it could use a bit more configurability...but that will no doubt come with time... :wink:

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by fraxinus_63 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:13 pm

craig10x wrote:yes...it's because there are some that just can't stand any change...
I am sorry to sound irritable - and to go back down what's now an old line of discussion - but what you are saying is just not true.

Everyday I drive a workstation PC with a large monitor, doing editing, web coding and graphics. It's not that I 'can't stand any change' - it's just that I always need lots of apps and windows open at once. I cannot do the 'distraction-free' computing that Gnome devs seem to advocate. Many others who use Linux in creative or management jobs will find it so too. Without a window list and a panel I am sunk, and the DE that I once found wholly satisfactory is no longer fit for purpose. Believe me, I have taken a good look at Gnome 3!!!

I applaud the decision of the Mint team to create an interface which gives people the choice between the Gnome Shell and the "window-list-and-panel" paradigm. Some of what the writer of that self-satisfied article regards as redundancy and duplication in Mint 12 might actually turn out to be an asset of the new desktop when viewed this way. I do hope it works out well, for all our sakes.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by Joe_Linux » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:37 pm

TBABill wrote:I think the author went way overboard with making the down side of the appearance sound like an insult rather than some type of constructive feedback to be taken or left by Clem and team. While I also agree that the current desktop of Mint 12 is not a great turnout, possibilities exist to make a tremendous amount of positive change as users provide feedback and suggestions.

I think a point many like the author miss is Clem and team is a very very small team, unlike the ubuntu dev team. I commend Clem for listening so well to his user base and doing all he could to implement the sentiments of the users. Nobody can dispute his devotion to the community.

Where I think there is room for improvement is moving Mint from being like everybody else, which appears difficult within Gnome Shell. However, it's very possible to do as evidenced by http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=205&t=85775 It's not an exact replacement of Mint using Gnome 2, but nothing will be. However, it makes it obvious that the modularity of Gnome 3 can be exploited in such a way using extensions that the Gnome 3/Gnome Shell Mint desktop very closely mimics the look and some of the behaviors the users so desperately wanted to keep if at all possible.

Hopefully as extensions continue to be built we'll see Gnome 3 evolve into a great environment as each distro puts its twist on it. Mint can improve a great deal and provide users what they want with the look, feel and polish the Mint team has always placed, but the default Mint 12 desktop isn't quite up to the visual and functional standard the distro has always maintained. In that link above, promise is shown that maybe we can tweak 12 to be just what we hoped it would become.
You said it very well. The Mint team has done an admirable job. It's obvious the future holds much promise. It's also true that the Gnome 2 user interface is still better than Gnome 3 with the Mint extensions. Nevertheless, I hold out much hope that in the future Gnome 3 + Extensions will be better than Gnome 2 ever was. It's hard to predict the future, but I honestly predict that Ubuntu will be forced to modify Unity into a user interface that is very much a clone of Mint's good work.

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Re: Opinion bout 12RC @omgubuntu

Post by Joe_Linux » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:44 pm

craig10x wrote:yes...it's because there are some that just can't stand any change...they want Clem to wave a magic wand and make MGSE exactly the same as the old gnome 2...and that is just not possible...

it's also why about half of ubuntu users freaked out about unity....i have been running unity with ubuntu 11.10 and after about 30 minutes i was completely comfortable with it and find it fine to use....it could use a bit more configurability...but that will no doubt come with time... :wink:
The claim that Unity protesters "don't like change" rings very shallow. What we don't like is a clumsy user interface that is hard to use and gets in the way of our work flow. They claim Unity isn't for "power users". I have yet to hear anyone explain what is actually improved by using Unity. If power users find it irritating, it doesn't seem logical that "no nothing users" would find it great. Just how hard is it to use an actual menu and look down at a taskbar to see what is open?

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