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Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:26 am
by Mozenrath
I mainly started using Linux Mint because it came with a tried & true logical desktop setup. While not everything was perfect, it was all easily tweakable and familiar. I had enough confidence to install LM10 on my girlfriend's computer, and she still uses it today.

Now my mom wants Linux Mint on her computer, and I discovered that there's a new version of LM. I downloaded it figuring it would be nothing but improvements, just like all of the other versions.

Holy heck, was I in for a shock when booting up the LM12 live CD!

First off, why are we now back to having 2 "panels" taking up space on the screen? I thought we were trying to get away from this! I know that it's GNOME 3, but since I've stuck with GNOME 2 on my own computer, I had no idea how lousy GNOME 3 classic mode was! Why can't I add things to the bottom panel like I can in GNOME 2? Do they just not want it to be easy anymore? All of the settings programs have been completely redone too, and they remind me of the Windows 98 days. Did the GNOME team really have to rewrite all of their established software? Now I have to relearn much of it.

MintMenu is also... blech. It works, but to be kindly honest, I don't like the new layout. Now I can't just make 2 clicks to get to Synaptic or the Terminal. Maybe there's an extra setting for that. And I don't like the search being at the top. Also, is there a reason why I can't scroll with the left mouse button? Now the only way to scroll through the programs is the scroll wheel.

Overall, I'm disappointed. Looks like I'll be sticking with LM11, and possibly LMDE. Sorry to say it. I'm still on board with using Linux Mint, but at this rate, I don't know.

I really wish GNOME 2 could branch off from the GNOME project into a new DE. GNOME 3 is simply atrocious. The problems that are present in GNOME 2, in my opinion, are relatively minor and I'm suspecting those problems are still around because the GNOME team has been focusing on making their DE work on iPads and mobile devices like that.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:32 am
by wayne128
Mozenrath wrote: Overall, I'm disappointed. Looks like I'll be sticking with LM11, and possibly LMDE. Sorry to say it. I'm still on board with using Linux Mint, but at this rate, I don't know.
Yes on Mint 11.

No on LMDE--it soon will get gnome-shell! in fact most of us using testing repos or Sid repos already running gnome-shell in LMDE :mrgreen:
I really wish GNOME 2 could branch off from the GNOME project into a new DE.

You already have it on Mint12, it is called MATE
logout from your gnome, then from login screen, click that gear , choose MATE in drop down menu, type password, login again, and see if you are OK with MATE.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:13 am
by Lippy
Well, it's understandable to prefer Mint 11 over 12. However, all other distros are in the same boat, as they all need to make their transition to Gnome 3. Linux Mint at least tries to make Gnome 3 usable to as many people possible, and there's still MATE for the rest. Sure, it might be a little rough around the edges, but I'm sure future releases will build on the foundations that Mint 12 set up.

I don't think the Mint team would be able to get Gnome 3 truly ready for prime time and introduce MATE and have it rock solid and release it before Ubuntu 12.04 gets too close. That would be asking too much. Usually I'm against this sort of thing, but in this case it's imo better to release something that's a little raw and unpolished than nothing at all. That way people have a choice of going more cutting edge with the benefit of having the more current Ubuntu 11.10 repositories, or sticking with a more reliable older release with more outdated packages.

There are two panels because the default Gnome bar (the top one) is difficult to tweak. It is possible to remove the bottom panel however, and have everything merged into the top one. Hopefully there will be a return to one bar again in Mint 13 as the team will have a bit more time to figure this one out. I don't think they had much choice with Mint 12 due to the enormous amount of work needed to even get it usable. The new Mint Menu has also regressed in functionality because it needed to be completely rewritten as a shell extension. The old applet is incompatible with Gnome Shell.

In a nutshell, it's not the Mint teams' fault for the rawness of Mint 12. I'd blame Gnome for this! :lol:

I think things will improve again with future releases and in the meantime if Mint 11 works well for you, there's nothing wrong with that! :)

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:24 am
by Mozenrath
Okay, I guess I'd like to say that I don't really blame LM. But it does seem kind of silly to do so much work for something that has seemingly less functionality.

I'll take a look at MATE, but I think I'll just be using LM11 on my mother's laptop since I'm most familiar with the standard LM desktop.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:57 am
by mank_in
For someone who like old mint desktop , you should try MATE. I am always using MATE since Lisa RC.
MATE is new but for me is stable enough, give me feel like the old mint desktop.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:44 am
by bimsebasse
Mozenrath wrote:I really wish GNOME 2 could branch off from the GNOME project into a new DE.

Jesus... MATE? Do people actually take just a little bit of time at least browsing the official Linux Mint page?

Said it a few times before but it really, really, REALLY needs to be more transparent for those many users who don't read anything that you can log in to MATE. The gear icon menu expanded by default or a slide dedicated to it in the installation process, perhaps even an installation option ("Do you prefer the new MGSE desktop or the Gnome 2 fork MATE as login session?")

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:58 am
by fraxinus_63
Mozenrath wrote: Overall, I'm disappointed. Looks like I'll be sticking with LM11, and possibly LMDE. Sorry to say it. I'm still on board with using Linux Mint, but at this rate, I don't know.
All I can say is ... please don't blame Mint or the Mint development team for this situation, is you find that the new release falls short of expectation. I keep an eye on a lot of distros. I know that no dev team is working harder to get through the transition to Gnome 3 and give users what they say that they want, or such a choice of options.

There is a big prize in sight - being able to take advantage of the latest Gnome 3 apps without having to endure the Gnome Shell (which, like you, I have no time for). However, it is the need to respond to drastic changes in Gnome world that are causing the problems.

I feel confident that the team will build on LM12 to create an LM13 that sets new standards for choice and flexibility in a Gnome desktop. In the meantime - we are not obliged to use the latest version! I am very happily using LM10 right now, and when I'm setting up new users I tend to give 'em LM9 (with the long-term support).

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:53 pm
by Mozenrath
MATE doesn't work at all for me. So I just ended up installing LM11. I selected it at the login, but I just got the same GNOME 3 desktop.

Sorry, but I didn't see it on the front page. I just figured that the new LM would be similar enough to the other ones.

Aside from GNOME Shell, is there really something special that GNOME 3 does that GNOME 2 can't do? I'm just curious.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that MATE and the Linux Mint-tailored GNOME 3 desktop both don't work in Virtualbox. I only get the default GNOME 3 desktop with no mintMenu and instead the "Applications Places" menu on the top panel.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:14 pm
by KBD47
There is also the option of logging into Gnome Classic on Mint 12. If you don't like the two panels, just remove one and move the other where you want it: alt-right click.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:49 pm
by kijin
Lippy wrote:all other distros are in the same boat, as they all need to make their transition to Gnome 3.
I have nothing against LM 12, but this quote is one idea that I just can't wrap my head around. I hear it all over the place, but it just isn't true. GNOME isn't the only game in town. GNOME 3 might be "the future" for some people, but there are many different futures in FLOSS land, and our choices can actually influence the viability of those futures.

For example, I've been trying to make XFCE look more like GNOME 2 in my spare time lately. It's surprisingly easy, because XFCE is just as configurable as GNOME 2 used to be. I wonder what the Mint team might be able to pull off if they adopted one of the "alternative" DEs, such as XFCE and LXDE, and tweaked it to the limit. The result could be a gorgeous, user-friendly, and lightening-fast user interface.

Plenty of other distros are struggling to cope with the GNOME project's "rewrite everything" philosophy. The same thing happened when the KDE team rewrote everything with KDE 4. Can't we just step aside while these megalithic projects get their sh*t together? An elegant distro like Mint need not serve as an immature project's guinea pig. I mean, call me again when the GNOME team releases version 3.14 or something.

I think I'll give LMDE XFCE another try next week.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:46 pm
by asymmetros
using Mint Debian with Xfce = no need to worry for any of gnome shell's novelties"

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:29 pm
by dcihon
using Mint Debian with Xfce = no need to worry for any of gnome shell's novelties"
+1

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:05 pm
by xenopeek
I'm sitting this one out on Linux Mint 11; it's perfect for me and still supported. I do very much appreciate the effort that went into 12, but it's not yet what I need. From what I've now seen, it looks like I'll be abandoning GNOME because 3.x really is a horrible brain wracking mess for my way of using a computer :wink: And as said in the opening of this topic, two panels? Nope, not doing that again (though I know you can pull MGSE and GNOME 3.2 panel into one).

I'm playing around with some other DEs, and KDE 4.7 actually has some nice features (I could find anything I needed, unlike on some other DEs) and I do very much like Kate and Dolphin after just a few minutes with it. But KDE is quite harsh, even with anti-aliasing enabled the fonts are more edges than I'm used to. (And then I got tipped Geany as an alternative by a colleague 8)) LXDE, as from Lubuntu 11.10, is actually quite good. Though simple. It burns rubber on my just upgraded machine :mrgreen: Xfce might work as an alternative, but I think I prefer LXDE as an alternative to GNOME (probably even over MATE).

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:36 pm
by lexon
I just stuck an extra drive in my desktop and installed Mint 12. Don't like it much right now.
I like the tool bar right at the bottom of the screen. It is not obvious on how to do this and I use to right click on the tool bar and would add app's to start up. Not obvious on how to do that either.
I downloaded the PDF for the OS but nothing obvious right now.
I might mess with it later.
I stuck the Mint 7 drive back in to be able to use my PC the way I like to.
Not looking for help here. Just saying.

L

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:43 pm
by bimsebasse
What you don't like is MGSE, the default desktop environment in Mint 12 - you should have booted into MATE from the login screen,you'd have found everything working as you're used to it working.

*MATE login option should be more transparent for people who don't read about the OS before installing complaint no. 52162 and counting*

Hello Mint devs! I'm looking at you! One eeeeetsy bitsy tiny fix (gear icon login menu expanded by default) and I'm guessing you could avoid a thousand unsatisfied customers per week, at least.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:05 am
by Mozenrath
It'd be great if Mint could eventually go Debian all the way and have its own desktop environment. Is there any reason why Linux Mint couldn't also have its own DE, or would that be too much work? Seems like Clem and company have already had to do enough work with GNOME 3.

MintDE would be awesome. :D

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:50 am
by truexfan81
Mozenrath wrote:It'd be great if Mint could eventually go Debian all the way and have its own desktop environment. Is there any reason why Linux Mint couldn't also have its own DE, or would that be too much work? Seems like Clem and company have already had to do enough work with GNOME 3.

MintDE would be awesome. :D
MintDE based on Gnome2 would be sweet :mrgreen:

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:01 am
by ilovelinux
kijin wrote:GNOME team releases version 3.14 or something.
Gnome 3 is currently version 3.2. :P

http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.2/

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:27 pm
by Joe_Linux
To weigh in on this, I find the MGSE extentions to be a huge improvement over stock Gnome 3 and naturally a much better solution to the issue than Unity. The problem with all these new user interfaces is they add very little of actual value. For example all the MGSE does is add the menu and task switching bar that we already had with Gnome 2. It is not a step forward and the fact that these new systems lack configurability is a real negative. I just found out this morning that that the font size settings for the Gnome 3 Shell don't adjust the font size in the MGSE menu. Is there any way to adjust the font and icon size in the MGSE Menu? I would like mine a bit larger.

Re: Why I don't like LM 12

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:19 pm
by asymmetros
I ve tried Mint 12 only in live session. MGSE adds a functionality that contradicts and alters gnome shell's target. Gnome 3 suggests a different way to work. As Clem said, it is applications-centric and not tasks-centric. Different animals. That is why it does not offers traybar for example, it's not a flaw: the workspaces on the right, the applications launcher on the left are also taskbars. So, any new customization offered by gnome devs will not be the kind of customization that gnome2 fans are asking.
I do not believe that Linux needs more desktops. Apart from gnome, we have kde, xfce, lxde, e17, openbox, fluxbox and many more. From full blown desktops to dozens of windows manager's. Hard to believe that none is good enough. The point is that not a few them, are supported by very few developers.

Personally, in my laptops, i am using xfce, openbox, kde, e17, qt-razor. Maybe i ll try again one day window maker or awesome -who knows? :lol: