Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Chat about Linux in general
Post Reply
lmuserx4849
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:55 am

Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by lmuserx4849 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm

Long-time KDE user...

Something that surprised me when using Mate and it appears to be true for Cinnamon too, that is, options changed in the File Manager affect the entire desktop.
I have never experienced that with KDE. In KDE, changes to Dolphin only affect Dolphin. Global changes are always done in System Settings.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Anyone know why it is happening.... it's the design right? Caja is not only the File Manager, but also the Desktop??? Where Dolphin is only a File Manager.

In future versions of LM (i.e. 19), if a user installs Mate and installs Dolphin, can Caja be deleted?

In KDE, I just goto System Settings, but with Mate it seems I have to go to Caja, System Settings, and then gsettings. Did I miss any other place in Mate?

User avatar
Portreve
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by Portreve » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:31 pm

lmuserx4849 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm
Something that surprised me when using Mate and it appears to be true for Cinnamon too, that is, options changed in the File Manager affect the entire desktop.
I have never experienced that with KDE. In KDE, changes to Dolphin only affect Dolphin. Global changes are always done in System Settings.
Can you be a little more specific? What settings?
Everything is in hand. With this tapestry... and with patience, there is nothing one cannot achieve.

No hamsters were harmed in the authoring of this post.

lmuserx4849
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:55 am

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by lmuserx4849 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:05 pm

Portreve wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:31 pm
lmuserx4849 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm
Something that surprised me when using Mate and it appears to be true for Cinnamon too, that is, options changed in the File Manager affect the entire desktop.
I have never experienced that with KDE. In KDE, changes to Dolphin only affect Dolphin. Global changes are always done in System Settings.
Can you be a little more specific? What settings?
I never know where to go in a GTK desktop to make changes for the overall desktop. There appears to be 3 or 4 different places. Whereas in KDE, it's the System Settings. It's one of those things where you make a change to fix something, and then move on, but I'll try and provide some specific examples :-)

My main machine is LM17.3/KDE, but I'm trying to use LM 18.3/Mate.

In KDE > Dolphin > Settings > Configure Dolpin > View Modes, I can move the sliders to change the size of the icons in Dolphin. No impact on the desktop.
In Mate > Caja > Edit > Preferences > Views, I change the Default zoom level, and the icons on the desktop also changed, which caught me by surprise.

In KDE > System Setting > Input Devices > Mouse > General, I can select "Double-click to open files and folders" or "Single Click"
In Mate, this is again controlled in Caja > Edit > Preferences > Behavior, "Single click" or "Double click".

These change appears to be recorded in the binary file $HOME/.config/dconf/user (i.e., org.mate.caja.preferences click-policy). It can be accessed via gsettings or the dconf-editor.

So if Mate is installed with Dolphin, where do you configure the mouse behavior (single/double click). If I go to System Setting > Mouse, there is no click preference. It's in Caja.

In a GTK desktop, do you first go to System Settings, if nothing there, then try Caja or the specific File Manager, then dconf-editor, then command line?

User avatar
Portreve
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by Portreve » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:32 pm

Well, I'll have to leave this to others who actually use MATE. I use Cinnamon, and at the moment I'm also using Cinnamon 3.8 in the LM19 Beta, so I can only speak to what's there.

Within the file manager itself (Nemo) you go to Edit > Preferences, then click on the Behavior tab and you can change between single- and double-click to open objects. To be honest, I had to google this one myself since the default behavior is double-click, and I have no reason to change it.

Icon sizes can be changed globally by right-clicking on the desktop itself, and then Desktop > Icon Size > Smaller | Normal | Larger, or they can be changed on a per-directory basis with a slider in the lower right corner of any Nemo window. Personally, I very rarely have a need to change the icon size, but it's cool that it's there.

I used MATE when it first came out as a replacement for Gnome 3, but once I started using Cinnamon, it pretty much stuck. It's extremely Finder-like (Mac OS, Mac OS X) and in my experience both Gnome 2.x and Cinnamon 1.x -> 3.x do not require one to go through a bunch of settings panels somewhere else just to make changes when it can be done within the context of the setting desired to be changed.
Everything is in hand. With this tapestry... and with patience, there is nothing one cannot achieve.

No hamsters were harmed in the authoring of this post.

User avatar
xenopeek
Level 24
Level 24
Posts: 22483
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:58 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by xenopeek » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:38 am

I just tried and yes you can remove Caja from Linux Mint 19 MATE. It will also remove the meta package "mint-meta-mate" but that is fine. (A meta package is a package that's a shopping list of other packages to install, without files of its own.) Mind that you can't remove the Caja package caja-common as the Mate Control Center depends on that. But Caja program itself can its extensions can be removed, just this library of common code of which part is used in Mate Control Center can't be removed.

You will have to install another program that will handle desktop icons in a MATE session. I installed Dolphin but in a short look couldn't figure out how to make that handle desktop icons in MATE, if that is even possible. So after removing Caja (and killing all running Caja processes) I'm left without desktop icons.

Caja is a fork of Nautilus 2.x. Nemo instead is a fork of Nautilus 3.x. As noted Caja also handles the desktop icons. Same for Nemo. In both changing the default zoom level also, unsurprisingly, changes the zoom level of the desktop. That's what you should expect to happen when you change the default.

In Cinnamon you can just right-click the desktop and change the icon size back to what you wanted for the desktop, if not the default you just set. That may also be possible with MATE, but not with a right-click on the desktop...
Image

User avatar
Portreve
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1112
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by Portreve » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:11 pm

xenopeek wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:38 am
I just tried and yes you can remove Caja from Linux Mint 19 MATE. < SNIP >
Thanks for the response to lmuserx4849's question, xenopeek. And thanks for the insight.

Other than perhaps personal preference, what would you say is the current case use for MATE over Cinnamon?
Everything is in hand. With this tapestry... and with patience, there is nothing one cannot achieve.

No hamsters were harmed in the authoring of this post.

User avatar
bartszu
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 pm
Location: Eire

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by bartszu » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:21 pm

lmuserx4849 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm
Caja is not only the File Manager, but also the Desktop??? Where Dolphin is only a File Manager.
Yep, all icons on desktop and all context menus are presented by caja -n.
lmuserx4849 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm
In future versions of LM (i.e. 19), if a user installs Mate and installs Dolphin, can Caja be deleted?
I wouldint do it, if you dont want to have simply wallpaper on desktop only, or you can dig it, I could not.
Everything else can be Dolpfin, but sort of like in Windoze, dont touch my desktop.
Look here.

viewtopic.php?f=206&t=157749

User avatar
bartszu
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 pm
Location: Eire

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by bartszu » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:29 pm

Xeno ? And what handles desktop in Cinnamon ? Nemo ?
If so there is somwhere simple pice of code to attach what you want but I dont know where to look for it.

JosephM
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 963
Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by JosephM » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:31 am

bartszu wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:29 pm
Xeno ? And what handles desktop in Cinnamon ? Nemo ?
If so there is somwhere simple pice of code to attach what you want but I dont know where to look for it.
nemo-desktop handles the desktop in Cinnamon. I think it was in Mint18.3 that nemo and nemo-desktop were split.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

Hoser Rob
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3973
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:57 am

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by Hoser Rob » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:28 am

I used to try other file managers than the one that came with the DE but I don't anymore. They never work as well, with the same level of integration, as the native FM. This is particularly true when you install Dolphin in any other Mint DE because they're GTK based desktops. The only possible exception to this I've seen is pcmanfm, which is the Lxde FM, and which installs with no other dependencies. It's very good, at least as good as Thunar,

I've come to the conclusion that if I dislike the file manager that comes with a DE that much I should just use a different DE.

User avatar
bartszu
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:39 pm
Location: Eire

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by bartszu » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:07 pm

Hoser Rob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:28 am
I used to try other file managers than the one that came with the DE but I don't anymore.
Dissagree here I use Nemo now in Mate, for some misterious reason on this configuration (old nVidia Chipset) it works 5 times faster then Caja. Dunno way.
Hoser Rob wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:28 am
I've come to the conclusion that if I dislike the file manager that comes with a DE that much I should just use a different DE.
Kinda agree, I could go Cinnamon here on this hardware it is powerfull enough, but I sticked with Mate and just changed default FM, in the way is described in link above, accepting that my desktop is really Caja.

The only solution I see is to get pice of FM separate like (fm-desktop-handler) from your default FM to handle desktop.

I dont have a time to dig it on Mate Dev Forums or Ubuntu Mate Forums as they are do some big time customization on this forum, there is more ppl there too.

lmuserx4849
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:55 am

Re: Cinnamon/Mate vs KDE - GTK-based desktops vs QT-based desktop

Post by lmuserx4849 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:53 pm

Portreve wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:11 pm
...
Other than perhaps personal preference, what would you say is the current case use for MATE over Cinnamon?
Linux mint doc has a little to say about it at http://linuxmint-installation-guide.rea ... hoose.html

I'm listening to the two approximately 20 minute videos below, by the same individual:

A look at Linux Mint 19 MATE and XFCE editions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_70MApHaA

A quick look at Linux Mint 19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRab3qRgz4

The release notes for xfce, mate, cinnamon are all the same on the lm blog (scroll down to find each release note).

I don't have much luck running cinnamon on older hardware (video issues), even with effects off. On a virtual machine, I get "Running in software rendering mode". Mate seems a little more traditional, without emphasis on the many desktop effects, hot spots, tiling, snapping.

This is my high-level understanding:
Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome 3, but more user-friendly, traditional but with those features mentioned above.
Mate is a fork of Gnome 2, continuing on with that look & feel, even as it migrates to gtk 3.

Coming from KDE though, all GTK desktops have the same issues.

It's interesting to see these migrations from gtk2 to 3, perl 5 to 6, python 2 to 3, qt 4 to 5. lxde went from gtk to qt.

Post Reply

Return to “Chat about Linux”