What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 am

Windows updates are painless as well when they work. Same as on Linux, it's all good until it isn't.

Although I also agree that the way the semi-annual system upgrades on Windows 10 are handled is highly annoying. In particular on non-standard installs. My actual C drive is fairly small, I have e.g. all the programs and program data in other locations. Windows 10 upgrades require it to be in C though, no matter how correctly I have it all set up in the registry and such just like I did since Windows NT days basically. So I ended up sym-linking everything into C instead. That lets the upgrade go through but all symlinks get reset. So I had a to write a number of scripts to run after Win10 upgrades to re-create the whole she-bang. Really?

But it's still a fringe case. For the average user neither Windows updates nor Windows upgrades require any effort, they might just leave you half a day without access to your system, which is of course ridiculous.

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 am
Windows updates are painless as well when they work. Same as on Linux, it's all good until it isn't.

But it's still a fringe case. For the average user neither Windows updates nor Windows upgrades require any effort, they might just leave you half a day without access to your system, which is of course ridiculous.
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful. But once more, Winders is what people know, and they accept that they must wait for sometimes hours to get an update downloaded.

We in the Linux community need to better at outreach, teaching, and tolerance for the newbies. We still come off as too elitist and not tolerant of the silly questions that have been asked time and time again. Perhaps a better way would be to explain that WE (in the Linux community) don't install spyware on your system like Microsoft does with Winders 10. We don't track everything you do, and above all we don't monetize you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful. But once more, Winders is what people know, and they accept that they must wait for sometimes hours to get an update downloaded.

We in the Linux community need to better at outreach, teaching, and tolerance for the newbies. We still come off as too elitist and not tolerant of the silly questions that have been asked time and time again. Perhaps a better way would be to explain that WE (in the Linux community) don't install spyware on your system like Microsoft does with Winders 10. We don't track everything you do, and above all we don't monetize you.
Lol, first thing I do is disable automatic updates (granted, I have Pro licenses) and use wsusoffline to update at my convenience. :P

That said, the update situation and tracking in Windows 10 is ridiculous and the reason I'm switching to Linux.

gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am

rui no onna wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am
Lol, first thing I do is disable automatic updates (granted, I have Pro licenses) and use wsusoffline to update at my convenience. :P
Most certainly. And upgrades get deferred. Nevertheless that one of them still black-screened even months later. Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.

It's not like there aren't plenty Linux updates that can prevent your system from booting, but it's usually easier to recover from them because the whole process isn't as opaque as it is on Windows.

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BG405
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:47 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful.
Those agonizingly slow updates are a fading memory for me, but strewth! Don't think mine ever took THAT long, with Win7 Ultimate. :shock: With Mint, we are spoilt in comparison, both for updates & the speed and ease with which we can install software.
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am
Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.
That is outrageous. I don't look at Windows forums as a rule, so was unaware of that, however have heard of updates wrecking many systems in the past.
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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:00 pm

BG405 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:47 pm
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am
Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.
That is outrageous. I don't look at Windows forums as a rule, so was unaware of that, however have heard of updates wrecking many systems in the past.
Oh I don't hang out on Windows forums, either, but I do defer the semi-annual upgrades for a few months and before applying them will search for known issues. Just a safe thing to do with big system upgrades.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am

The few times I have ventured into the M$ forums I have had nothing but disgust for the idiocy with smiles coming from the official "fixers".... actual knowledge of problems beyond a two-week training course (if even that much) must be severely lacking with those people.

The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.

These are some of the great ways they win good favour.

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Pierre
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pierre » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:20 am

the Modern Linux System does need some regular updates to be installed,
as does the Modern Windows System, but when either of those updates cause a crash,
then it's both systems, that can be a right PiTA to fix up.

there is just as much Bad Advice, when searching for that upgrade issue,
that is that PiTA on both systems.

coz I've seen the worst of both systems, & it's the Windows System that can be the most frustrating to fix up.
:o
- - last year, I'd had to hack the Windows Registry, on one machine,, just to get an older Printer to install on win-10.
that shouldn't be necessary, but it was,, as the Printer Driver was no longer 'verified'.

then again, on another machine, the Sound Card wasn't working on a New Linux Installation,
& that took a bit of effort to fix up, as well.
:)
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Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.

rui no onna
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:04 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am
The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.
That may be the case on Windows 10 (I dunno, I haven't really used it). On Windows 7 Pro and older, you can. You can even completely disable automatic updates via menu, no need for registry hacks (menu options are: automatic download and install, download but don't install, check but don't download or install, disabled). Alas, 7 is fast approaching EOL.

gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:20 am

rui no onna wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:04 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am
The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.
That may be the case on Windows 10 (I dunno, I haven't really used it). On Windows 7 Pro and older, you can. You can even completely disable automatic updates via menu, no need for registry hacks (menu options are: automatic download and install, download but don't install, check but don't download or install, disabled). Alas, 7 is fast approaching EOL.
It's not the case at least on my Win10 Pro, either, it does not download anything on its own. It's true the Home edition cannot prevent automatic updates though.

rambo919
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:49 am

I have not directly experienced this myself in a while tbh and the bulk of my win10 experience is from PC's at work so it might have been patched out at some point.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by winxpwasgreat » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 pm

Great thread.

Noobs go back to Windows because linux just doesn't deliver in the most basic aspects an OS should do.

Plug and play is a big one.. drivers another one.. crappy amateurish software another one.. I could go on.

What pisses me off is the fact 15 years ago those were still the reasons why noobs would stay away from linux, which makes me think not enough time and resources have been allocated to fix those aspects.
If they were, linux today would be the king of operative systems, whereas at the current state it is only being used by either nerds or ex windows users who couldn't put up with all the rubbish of anything happened after winxp.

So my advice for whoever is a linux developer and reads this post, is to start from the user experience of a noob, and then build the technology on top of it. Just assume the noob is a normal person (not technologically impaired, but by all means not keen on wasting time on trivial things such as installing a new printer or new speakers) used to the versatility of winxp. There's an incredible amount of people still using that OS, especially in China. If you build something "like xp, but slightly better", that's basically how to become the #1 OS in the world. I'd be happy to pay in the low xxx $s a year for such OS if it existed, and similarly to me many others would.

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