What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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MrGrimm
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MrGrimm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:24 pm

from 7 forward each version of windows has been designed to work on older hardware than the previous version, 8 running on older than 7, 8.1 running on older than 8, 10 running on older than 8.1, yes peeps def need to avoid 8, 8.1, was released to address major bugs in 8.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:26 pm

MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:13 am
improper support for one. typically in a windows help forum you are presented with a solution and every step to apply said solution. in the linux forux peeps have a very nasty habit of say do /whatever, and /this, which is fine you have the commands to use but not where to put those commands. peeps get treated like they should already know everything there is about linux, um news flash peeps wouldn't be coming to the support forums if they did.
As long as you don't mean the official Microsoft forums.... those are usually beyond useless especially if staff answer.... the most common "solution" is STILL to just format and re-install which is what many of the "feature updates" do anyway to a degree.... Not that much of a problem for me except when it comes to SSD's or tablet flash memory... very tricky and expensive to replace half the time. Even many laptops with spinning drives are now making replacement semi-impossible.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:28 pm

MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:24 pm
from 7 forward each version of windows has been designed to work on older hardware than the previous version. 8 running on older than 7. 8.1 running on older than 8, 10 running on older than 8.1. yes peeps def need to avoid 8, 8.1 was released to address major bugs in 8.
Honestly 8.1 was basically 8 with service pack one, both count as 8 to me.

And that's not enough backward compatibility..... thankfully the amount of 1GB RAM computers that still function are declining but most older one's still are 2GB max.... 4GB is FAR from the norm.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:32 pm

MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:39 am
MurphCID wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:35 am
Most Linux boards, especially in the late 1990's and early 2000's were notorious for the "RTFM" mentality, and driving off newbies. Thank G_d we are getting away from that elitist, snobby, counterproductive mentality.
that probably has to do with the ease of use of linux this day and age. a lot more people with a wider range of attitudes.
It's probably more that enough people that care nothing for ego boosting or "cred" are now using Linux and refuse to be bullied, or they simply see that this is going to be too aggravating and choose to willingly submit to the Microsoft or Apple overlords instead because life is short and so on.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:43 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:32 pm
MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:39 am
MurphCID wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:35 am
Most Linux boards, especially in the late 1990's and early 2000's were notorious for the "RTFM" mentality, and driving off newbies. Thank G_d we are getting away from that elitist, snobby, counterproductive mentality.
that probably has to do with the ease of use of linux this day and age. a lot more people with a wider range of attitudes.
It's probably more that enough people that care nothing for ego boosting or "cred" are now using Linux and refuse to be bullied, or they simply see that this is going to be too aggravating and choose to willingly submit to the Microsoft or Apple overlords instead because life is short and so on.
I think you have a point, although too many people still get run off of boards where they are not as good and helpful as this one.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MrGrimm » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:11 am

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:43 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:32 pm
MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:39 am


that probably has to do with the ease of use of linux this day and age. a lot more people with a wider range of attitudes.
It's probably more that enough people that care nothing for ego boosting or "cred" are now using Linux and refuse to be bullied, or they simply see that this is going to be too aggravating and choose to willingly submit to the Microsoft or Apple overlords instead because life is short and so on.
I think you have a point, although too many people still get run off of boards where they are not as good and helpful as this one.
agree 1,000% lots of aholes still on the foruns, one on here i had to call out. luckily its not been back to any of my threads since.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:34 pm

MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:13 am
improper support for one. typically in a windows help forum you are presented with a solution and every step to apply said solution. in the linux forux peeps have a very nasty habit of say do /whatever, and /this, which is fine you have the commands to use but not where to put those commands. peeps get treated like they should already know everything there is about linux, um news flash peeps wouldn't be coming to the support forums if they did.
Luckily, this forum is not like a lot of others out there (coARCHugh). A lot more "User Friendly". Kinda like Mint itself. :wink:
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One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:33 am

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:34 pm
MrGrimm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:13 am
improper support for one. typically in a windows help forum you are presented with a solution and every step to apply said solution. in the linux forux peeps have a very nasty habit of say do /whatever, and /this, which is fine you have the commands to use but not where to put those commands. peeps get treated like they should already know everything there is about linux, um news flash peeps wouldn't be coming to the support forums if they did.
Luckily, this forum is not like a lot of others out there (coARCHugh). A lot more "User Friendly". Kinda like Mint itself. :wink:
So very true.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MrGrimm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:01 am

Arch_Enemy it is good for the most part, but make no mistake that it does have at least a couple of pieces of ........
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:57 pm

MrGrimm wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:01 am
Arch_Enemy it is good for the most part, but make no mistake that it does have at least a couple of pieces of ........
Every forum has its trolls.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by taxedserf » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:39 pm

A great thread.

My own journey to Linux has been stillborn because of incompatibility with LibreOffice Calc and Microsoft Excel. Critically, LibreOffice Calc can't handle =SUMIF() between linked workbooks. This is kindergarten stuff to get wrong. See this forum, Aug2018.

Reactions to some others' comments:
ugly wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:22 am
Often times it is difficult for a new, or even a somewhat experienced user to solve a problem on their own.
The solution is to have software written that creates no self-inflicted problems. The best method for this is for the senior developers to use every aspect of their own software on an old desktop with no mouse physically attached to it.
rambo919 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:52 am
The only reason people stuck with M$ till now is mostly everything just worked without having to think too deeply about it.
Bingo.
rambo919 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 am
The problem there is most of the people that can actually help are the anti-social type that are terrified of holding the hands of strangers.
That might be true, but there is another issue to consider.

Some contributors, whilst well-intentioned, put zero effort into understanding the functional outcome required of the software run in Linux Mint. No attempt to sit in the users' shoes. See this post for a classic example: apparently, I - the user - am supposed to re-type/re-structure 10 years worth of data manually because the software available in the Linux environment isn't good enough. My fault, apparently.
glocal wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:24 am
What I can't live without though is real-world compatibility and software availability. It is infuriating when people tell you that LibreOffice (the flagship open-source suite) is the same as, or better than MS Office.
Bingo. LibreOffice is a good product, but it doesn't achieve the same functional outcomes as Microsoft Excel (even ignoring Visual Basic for Applications). I'm finding the same about SoftMaker Free Office PlanMaker. =SUMIF() for linked workbooks!

And as for a ledger system that shells to Excel to run VBA scripts to pull data from an SQL server... well... !!!
glocal wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:41 pm
I think that Linux is far too important to be left to the purists and there are public interest reasons it should grow.
Bingo.
Valsodar wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am
I don't see how having a GUI tool like autodeb would be getting in the way of your productivity.
Come do my day job for a month!

I find that GUIs always get in the way, precisely because they dumb down on every evolution/update. Why allow the user to do something in two keystrokes when 4 million mouse clicks is apparently the way forward?! That's what happened between Excel 2003 and Excel 2007.
CinaMint wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:45 am
I have spent 2 days trying to get Wine installed and given up completely - it is far too complicated and far too buggy with no proper help... I am still no clearer and as I must be able to use Office Apps, this is one of the first things I need to address or there is no point in sticking with any of this.
Bingo. I've not tried Wine or Mono yet, but I really cannot see the point of trying them. If I need to use Microsoft Excel because it is only software that can do =SUMIF() between linked workbooks, then Linux Mint suffers a complete undermining of its business case. Which takes us to the next choice quotation:
Pjotr wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:04 pm
For Windows programs it's best to use.... Windows. It really is that simple.
Bingo.

Linux Mint is stuck. Mint itself is an excellent product, but it cannot get beyond the design failures of the apps that run on it. And Mint can do nothing about that directly.
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:47 pm
Corporate world wants things to work so their employees don't have to be computer whizzes...nail on the head there.
Bingo. I pay my staff to meet my objectives, not somebody else's objectives.
Martin the Taxed Serf, an English Accountant
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thenextguy » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:22 pm

taxedserf wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:39 pm
A great thread.

My own journey to Linux has been stillborn because of incompatibility with LibreOffice Calc and Microsoft Excel. Critically, LibreOffice Calc can't handle =SUMIF() between linked workbooks. This is kindergarten stuff to get wrong. See this forum, Aug2018.

...Bingo. I pay my staff to meet my objectives, not somebody else's objectives.
Much of what you say here is perfectly true and valid, but is not limited to Mint, rather, it applies across all GNU/Linux platforms.

There are an awful lot of apps available that are perfectly fine for ordinary, average domestic use, but as far as the business or professional desktop sector is concerned, Windows remains the only choice for now, and so I have to run both Linux and Windows. And although generally, there are very, very few difficulties for even the typical Windows user in setting up and running almost any Linux distro, many of the apps and utils are clumsy and sub-optimal.

The UI is as Windows-like as imaginable in almost all WMs/Desktops, but in some ways also more limited. (E.g., lack of tooltips - esp. annoying/frustrating when e.g. desktop icon names are too long to be shown in the icon's space.)

Personally, I find this obsession in the Linux world to be as Windows-like as possible is one of its great failings. Instead of innovating, the Linux world merely and meekly follows where Windows leads. Linux had a perfect opportunity to become "the next big thing" and sadly missed this opportunity and became stagnant instead. In a few years' time, Linux and Linux desktops will be as obsolescent as 'old' Windows 10 (or, for that matter, macOS unless that manages to radically change).

In view of Type 1 VMs and AS - Artifical Stupidity, as I prefer to call so-called AI, which nonetheless has huge potential - as well as the immense power now available, completely different, new types of desktop OSes are now becoming possible, and somewhere, some current player like Microsoft or some new start-up is sure to come up with just that - a radically different OS and radically different desktop/UI. In reality, very little has changed in the OS world in the last 20 or so years other than slow, evolutionary changes, so a radical change is well overdue and most likely already well in preparation.

Present OSes, including the Linux world, will be dead in the water. It could have looked forward instead of just remaining in its comfort zone and, on the sidelines, embraced the future instead of playing catch-up. Sadly, it hasn't. One factor that has played in this is the fact that there are far too many different, if related, distros, so much development being duplicated and triplicated, tieing up development resources that could have been used for moving towards something new. But the vision was never there in the first place.

Yes, granted, at present, OTOH, Linux still has some slight advantages over Windows, but also disadvantages. Advantages include, generally, a slight gain in speed and general resource economy - great especially with older hardware, and slightly better security out-of-the-box. But all the disadvantages listed by taxedserf will send many Windows users straight back. Another thing that will send many Windows users back is the lack of a proper graphical configuration utility (that gives a comprehensive preview of any changes) for changing themes and various aspects of the UI.Sure, not much in the way of choice for changing appearance under Windows 10, but at least what there is is easy to do and graphical. And there are still a few third party customisation utilites such as Rainmeter and Winstep for the minority that want to radically change/enhance their desktop.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:26 pm

Both of those posts were excellent. I learn so much from this thread, keep it up.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:21 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:26 pm
Both of those posts were excellent. I learn so much from this thread, keep it up.
+1 Very interesting thread - and do not disagree with any of the specifics.

I do think in general though there is an "apples to oranges" tendency when comparing Linux/MS/Mac.
The other problem I have is actually defining a "linux user" (more specifically a Mint user) vs a "MS user"
It seems obvious from what I read here is that OPs are comparing Windows to Mint as they are relevant to their individual environment/experience. That is a totally valid comparison - if you can't be productive with Libre Office or Gimp or whatever app is in question then you are not going to be satisfied with any linux distro.

I have installed LM dozens of times and support LM for 6 family members and friends - all were frustrated with their Windows experience. The reality is none of them had any idea how to install linux let alone solve any issues should they arise. But once up and running on LM they were happy - very happy, because the LM experience was/is perceived as "better" or an improvement to their Windows experience. This would not be the case if there were things they could not do with linux that they did easily with Windows.

There is another handful of folks that I know who were not particularly happy with Windows but that linux was just not a feasible option for exactly some of the reasons spelled out in this thread. One person in particular went back to Windows because they got tired of struggling with the financial apps that were supposed to be substitutes for Quicken.

I think there is a huge segment of users that are not being reached for which linux would be a superior choice over Windows but comparing them to users who have specific needs that only MS can fill I think is a mistake.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by carum carvi » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:33 am

I expected LinuxMint to be exactly like Windows.
LinuxMint is different (ofcourse), but being a newbie I still wanted it to be exactly the same as Windows. That's a contradiction in itself. It took me a year to realise that. :oops:

Fear of the unknown:
when I found out that (ofcourse) LinuxMint is not exactly the same as Windows, the fear of possibly messing up my computer with a new install, THAT fear got me running back to Windows. As a newbie I had NO experience whatsoever with making a totally new OS install on my computer. I guess the large majority of average day to day users hasnt got that experience, because Windows always is already pre installed. THAT fear of the unknown related to making a new OS install, which possibly could cause problems, that fear made me go running back to Windows.

Nothing happened though when I finally installed LinuxMint. The earth didnt fall beneath my feat, the sky didnt rain down on me. Nothing, no problem whatsoever. Windows has messed up my computer a zillion trillion more times than LinuxMint has. But how could I have known that LinuxMint is much more user friendly? I expected it to be extremely difficult.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:43 pm

carum carvi wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:33 am
As a newbie I had NO experience whatsoever with making a totally new OS install on my computer. I guess the large majority of average day to day users hasnt got that experience, because Windows always is already pre installed. THAT fear of the unknown related to making a new OS install, which possibly could cause problems, that fear made me go running back to Windows.
Great point - I remember about 15 years ago, maybe more my brother (I have 5 - the retired NASA one) was helping me with a Windows machine (must have been Windows 95 ????) and told me he reformatted his HDD about every six months with a fresh install of the OS. I was astonished and chalked it up to him being an egghead - I believed that I certainly did not have the computer skills to accomplish something of that magnitude.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by countryking » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:45 pm

I think most people the masses want it like Go buy it at Walmart. My brothers wife Used to talk about cp Microsoft like she a pro. I start using linux Cause of my own hacked accounts that I couldn't get anyone to investigate. When i tried talking to her years ago she said There No-way that kinda stuff doesn't happen. Well when I confronted my face book jackA hacker. Thats been chilling in my account very long time she my brothers family PC first to get attacked. Instead of remotely listening to me explain how linux could help. She put CP in trash went to Walmart got another CP. Average local users need to have Labtop with thare fav flavor ready to hand to a person in distress and Aid person (not behind a screen) in options & the navigation of Linux. I fished here pc out of trash cleaned DBAN loaded my fav flavor Going to take it to her this weekend show her how to use it.. We talked about it at Christmas lunch today. :D As a noob I was lost for min to. Loadable and recoverable at click made any dummy Microsoft pc guy. Me included. That has changed. Thank you so much linux community U have done more for me in few years then I got from every Microsoft just pay for this help sell. Since 2005 when I reported my Security breach to anyone who would listen.
MERRY Christmas ALL

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by carum carvi » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:14 am

majpooper wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:21 pm

I have installed LM dozens of times and support LM for 6 family members and friends - all were frustrated with their Windows experience. The reality is none of them had any idea how to install linux let alone solve any issues should they arise. But once up and running on LM they were happy.
I think there is a huge segment of users that are not being reached for which linux would be a superior choice over Windows but comparing them to users who have specific needs that only MS can fill I think is a mistake.
Majpooper when I had my very first computer experience it was in the Windows95 days. Back then I honestly believed that if my system had crashed I had to bring it back to the computer store which did a reinstall of Windows95. For 50 dollars! I even had the installation cd myself back then, but I still figured that if the computer store asked 50 dollars for a reinstall that it must be very difficult or near impossible to do a new reinstall myself :oops:
countryking wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:45 pm
Instead of remotely listening to me explain how linux could help, she put CP in trash and went to Walmart to get another CP.
Countryking, I honestly think the majority thinks that way. If a computer doesnt work, you buy a new one. The idea of reinstalling an altnernative (free) OS like LinuxMint by yourself is completely absent in the masses. I learned about the existence of Linux because I was an avid magazine reader of tech stuff. My pc magazine had a cd rom with Linux to it attached and a guide how to use it. Otherwise I would have still been shuffling Windows...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:39 am

I remember those days, I would format and re-install Windows every year to clean out the cruft, and make it work again. I remember loading Service packs to update Windows. Thank goodness that Linux Mint did away with that silliness. I remember doing the format and re-install up to Windows 7 days, and even thought about it with Windows 7, till I could CCleaner which helped.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:00 pm

taxedserf wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:39 pm
A great thread.
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:47 pm
Corporate world wants things to work so their employees don't have to be computer whizzes...nail on the head there.
Bingo. I pay my staff to meet my objectives, not somebody else's objectives.
I am now only using Windows to print my photos, because Canon ceased development of Linux drivers when the x86_64 versions came out. HP still does, but their photo printers aren't as good as they used to be (I have dedicated photo printers, not "All In Ones") The on AIO printer I have is a Brother, that I use for work, and luckily Brother still develops Linux drivers for their printers, so I CAN print, Fax, Scan, etc. With the exception of the Canon printers I would be 100% Linux.

Also, I am a tinkerer, and used to be a (Windows) Operating Specialist and GE's Helpdesk. That was quite a while ago. Microsoft has gone a long way at dumbing down Windows, and I like a challenge. Boy, does Linux have me challenged sometimes, especially Arch. I love Arch, but you might as well set up Arch JUST to tinker with the OS... :)

Mint works for me as a toy and for my job. Now, if I could just talk Canon into publishing drivers again...

Your post hit some high points. If everything in Linux could match their equivalents in Windows, you would see a LOT more businesses using it. Unfortunatley, if that happened, a lot more hackers would be working away to hack it, and since it's Open Source, that would be an easy task. Honour amongst thieves, I guess... :wink:
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One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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