It works for them but not for me

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Petermint
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It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

Often when I start projects, I run into the Linux problem of finding working documentation. You find an online page describing exactly how someone did what you want to do. It worked for them. It does not work on whatever distribution I use.

I add the distribution to the search and find an online page describing exactly how someone did what I want to do on my distribution. It worked for them. It does not work for me.

I add the distribution version, "buster" to the search and find an online page describing exactly how someone did what I want to do on my version of my distribution. It worked for them. It does not work for me.

Then there are all the pages where they start by replacing the standard supplied software with something else because the new package is "better". The new package has different settings in different files and features a whole new set of errors. When you give up and delete the new package, you are not back at the same point and have to reinstall the OS from the start.

You go into the forums from a search for an error message. There is lots of advice that works for someone but not for me. The adviser often leaves out version or anything else of use.

Then there is the search engine response of showing you the most visited pages which are usually from 2012. Adding "buster" to a search finds a forum post where someone mentions "It does not work on buster".

Currently I am mixing Linux Mint with a distribution based on Debian. Both use systemd. Systemd seems to make Linux like Windows. Change something. You have to reboot, retry, often reinstall.
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ferrari2001
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by ferrari2001 »

Petermint wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:11 pm Often when I start projects, I run into the Linux problem of finding working documentation. You find an online page describing exactly how someone did what you want to do. It worked for them. It does not work on whatever distribution I use.
This reads like a sweeping generalization, or a defeatist attitude. Using Linux is a lot like owing a kit car. You need to be prepared to work on it yourself, make the effort, and take the time to learn. Making mistakes and encountering problems is all part of the learning. An online community such as this one makes all the difference - forums are a good way to share information and seek more relevant interactive help when the need arises. I've been using Linux for over 20 years now, and I am still learning. Things change as well, so the learning never really stops.
Currently I am mixing Linux Mint with a distribution based on Debian. Both use systemd. Systemd seems to make Linux like Windows. Change something. You have to reboot, retry, often reinstall.
That's just nonsense. In any case I doubt the majority of new users would even understand the underlying int system or processes running in the background. Most focus on what they can see - applications and the desktop environment.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by GELvdH »

Petermint, it looks like you have been around a sufficient amount of time to have gathered some knowledge about how to use LM. I had trouble understanding what your problem is so someone may be able to help you. If it is a specific instance about a specific problem maybe we can help. :?
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

An online community such as this one makes all the difference
The Linux Mint forum is good at mentioning LM 19.2 or whatever. For the other distributions I use, the version is rarely mentioned.
I had trouble understanding what your problem is so someone may be able to help you.
Just discussing Linux in general. The problem of matching anything online with whatever you have installed. The problems this week are from a different distribution and for another forum. I had the same type of problem in the past with distributions aimed at specific uses, media servers, sound recording, etc. You run into big problems when you add anything else.

This week I am using a Debian based distribution for different hardware. The experts in the forums say the releases after Wheezy are different from Wheezy. They say Jessie, Stretch, and Buster are all the same. I am using a distribution based on Buster. Tages for Jessie and Stretch are not working. For my projects, there is nothing specific to Buster.

When you start Nginx, you get an error message in a standard location. journclt or whatever. Easy. This week I tested variations of DHCP, DNS, and Firewalls. The common thread appears to be an error message that just says an error occurred. Nothing in dmesg, syslog, or anywhere else I can find. A standard place for messages would be good for all system level packages.

The work is on some models of Raspberry Pi. They use ARMv6, ARMv7, and ARMv8. The official software is compiled 32 bit for ARMv6 and works on every model. Some add-on packages are compiled for ARMv7 and fail in some Pi models. Illegal instruction. They now also have a 64 bit version for some models. I might just toss the old hardware and buy the v8 versions.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

Examples. Static addresses. dhcpcd.conf appears to be the current location but there are lots of pages using other places and they end up on the first page of search results.

There are varying descriptions of assigning the same address depending on the ethernet device plugged in. The assumption is you only have one. A test machine may have several plugging in across the day and at the same time.

There appear to be more than one way to make an IP address based on a MAC. I have yet to find one that works in Pi OS Buster.

The local network may or may not have a DHCP server running. I am putting manual addresses in every device and want every device to know about every device so every host goes in the hosts file. The DHCP will really only be for temporary devices.

There are pages telling me to ditch dhcpcd and use isc-dhcp-server but not a good explanation of why. A page on firewalls recommends a replacement and gives a good explanation of why but that is more of an exception.

Multiply each point by 5 ~ 10 different approaches to test and several hours per day * several days for each test. It would be easier if a page said "this is tested on stretch but not anything else". It would help if authors linked to pages for earlier versions. It would be good if Google would search on content of the page, not some random comment posted years later. :idea:
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Pjotr »

Clearly tinkering is not your thing. I think your best approach would be, to simply do a fresh clean installation of Linux Mint 20.2 and change nothing in it.

Just leave it vanilla and only install the updates. You should be good to go for several years of unhampered trouble-free computing then.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by ivar »

Petermint wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:27 pm The work is on some models of Raspberry Pi. They use ARMv6, ARMv7, and ARMv8. The official software is compiled 32 bit for ARMv6 and works on every model. Some add-on packages are compiled for ARMv7 and fail in some Pi models. Illegal instruction. They now also have a 64 bit version for some models. I might just toss the old hardware and buy the v8 versions.
Currently I am mixing Linux Mint with a distribution based on Debian.
Sounds like you are "rolling your own" linux for these devices and not running Raspbian/Raspberry Pi OS?
I'd think if running Raspbian, that the stuff in online Pi writeups/tutorials should mostly work as expected... :?

Otherwise I've observed the same as you, online write-ups that can be outdated and that might or might not work for the things I'm looking for. Also there's always more than one way to do things in linux, so can be confusing when researching how to best apply a solution for what one tries to achieve.

as for MAC/IP, I'd think I'd go the DHCP route with IP reservations set on the server
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Portreve »

Thoughts...

Most extant distributions are derivatives of certain base distributions. For example, Debian is a base distro upon which many others, including Ubuntu, Linux Mint, Deepin, AntiX, MX Linux, PureOS, Kali Linux, Parrot OS, Devuan, Knoppix, AV Linux, and many others. Therefore, oftentimes there are relevant instructions to be found under Debian. The same would be true of finding solutions for Gecko Linux on openSUSE, or Fedora for qubesOS. Etc. and so forth.

Bedrock Linux is a project which lets you combine components from different Linux distributions. So, if you really wanted or needed to go that route, there you are.

Other than that, I would strongly second Pjotr's advice above.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Schultz »

ferrari2001 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:33 pm
Petermint wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:11 pm Currently I am mixing Linux Mint with a distribution based on Debian. Both use systemd. Systemd seems to make Linux like Windows. Change something. You have to reboot, retry, often reinstall.
That's just nonsense. In any case I doubt the majority of new users would even understand the underlying int system or processes running in the background. Most focus on what they can see - applications and the desktop environment.
I don't think it's nonsense. Systemd is a lot like scvhost.exe
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Hoser Rob »

Pjotr wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:24 am Clearly tinkering is not your thing. I think your best approach would be, to simply do a fresh clean installation of Linux Mint 20.2 and change nothing in it.

Just leave it vanilla and only install the updates. You should be good to go for several years of unhampered trouble-free computing then.
My thought exactly.
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rene
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by rene »

Schultz wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:33 am
ferrari2001 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:33 pm
Petermint wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:11 pm Currently I am mixing Linux Mint with a distribution based on Debian. Both use systemd. Systemd seems to make Linux like Windows. Change something. You have to reboot, retry, often reinstall.
That's just nonsense. In any case I doubt the majority of new users would even understand the underlying int system or processes running in the background. Most focus on what they can see - applications and the desktop environment.
I don't think it's nonsense.
Nor I. systemd is not just an init system, which I in fact have (relatively, races notwithstanding) little problem with. It's the shitload of opaque rubbish that it also is that is by far worst; udevd, journald, logind, timesyncd, resolved, ...

In the case of resolved I've had to in fact remove it from my systems so as to not go complete bollocks from that poorly configurable, undebugable, opaque mess. And that's the sense in which systemd-the-suite is quite Windows-like; its components all communicating with each other behind the scenes over dbus interfaces, hiding any and all detail from casual inspection and making e.g. "reboot" the most often far best option lest you spent hours upon hours trying to figure out what goes where and in which order.

systemd is an opaque, feature-creeped mess; not a holy war.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by t42 »

rene wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:23 pm as to not go complete bollocks from that poorly configurable, undebugable, opaque mess
Each time reading this saga from 2016 resolved stub resolver doesn't provide RRSIG data in replies when DO/CD queries are sent to it drives me nuts. Respect to wtoorop for trying so long
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by rene »

It's going to be a long time before I forget the sound of my own sigh of relief when things just immediately worked as they were supposed to after disabling systemd-resolved and configuring dnsmasq instead. Had been fighting that piece of complete and itter shut for days at that point...
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

I am learning more about sh and bash. After a few reruns, I started putting the steps into scripts for more reliable builds and testing. I now know how to append to a config file and will test prepend next. I know the difference between sudu ... and sudo -sh -c "...". :D

Next is to edit text. Things like replacing the host name.

I also have my scripts writing a log.

The last part will be script A running script B then rebooting and running script C.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

I now have some scripts to set up a standard config for one OS. Something as simple as a bash if statement with two tests is now in the 11th version based on many pages and forum posts saying "do this", "no, do this". Big arguments about what works everywhere. No, use Posix. No, you need the new version.

Along the way, I found dozens of config files used during boot. I could probably configure a more powerful processor to make a decent espresso. :D

One long stackexchange item started with people complaining about the post not including exact details of the OS used or the version of bash. Then the replies excluded all information about which operating systems or bash could run the many wildly different answers.

The target OS has nano as the command line "editor" for the non GUI version. Way to painful for editing. How do people get work done in that type of environment? If this was a commercial project, just the bash problems and the painfully slow editing would have passed $10,000.00.

I can understand the manager of a project being terrified of changing from Solaris to Debian. They had a dead simple Web server + database. I suggested replacing the slow old server with a new fast generic server running Debian. The business manager was horrified at the possible changes required. The tech manager was horrified at the thought of changing some cron scripts. I had it running in an hour but they still cancelled the conversion in case something happened and they did not know how to fix it.

Anyway, I am going to spend up big money to get a more powerful computer for the project so I can run the OS with a GUI and never have to waste time on nano.

$65 :shock:
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by rene »

Petermint wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:03 am Anyway, I am going to spend up big money to get a more powerful computer for the project so I can run the OS with a GUI and never have to waste time on nano.
No serious UNIX user wastes time on nano when without a GUI either; anyone to this day using a non graphical editor for serious work on UNIX uses
vi or emacs --- and many do, due to both those being a heck of a lot faster and powerful than any GUI-based editor.

Once familiar, which in especially the case of vi takes a bit, but that's it: believing that a GUI-based editor is necessarily (or even, ever) better/faster than a terminal-based one only shows lack of experience and/or resistance to things that need to be learned.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by Petermint »

I remember vim. One one project, the customer had a vim cheat sheet up on every wall near a computer. The cheat sheet did not match the version of vim on any server I worked on. None of the vims matched any other server. Server work started with a great hunt to find the vim on that server. One of my recommendations was to update all the versions of Linux to one. It started a religious war about which distribution.

They updated some servers but to different distributions. We still had the same number of differences. Scripts had to be hand changed for every server. :x

I went to a one day training course intro to Linux command line. A customer was about to put 10 people through. I was the test student. The teacher worked in the command line and wasted a long time trying to find an editor. "Not my machine!" (That is the polite version of what he said.) The computer admin was missing.

I found it easier to install a GUI and use a file manager for searches plus a real editor. My smallest computer is 0.5 GB and can run a GUI. Changing a config is faster even with the slow GUI reaction time. Currently investigating lightdm instead of LXDE as some GUI programs list lightdm as the only required package.
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Re: It works for them but not for me

Post by rene »

Petermint wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:54 pm Changing a config is faster even with the slow GUI reaction time.
Most certainly not for me; and not for anyone familiar with vi in the case of complex and/or many changes --- but certainly be free to not be such ;-)
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