What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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RollyShed
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by RollyShed »

MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:11 pmI keep trying to get my daughters to use or at least try Linux and get told: Daddy it is an old persons system, no one uses that....
OK, all I've done have been for those older than her. Yes, she's a kid who hasn't grown up yet. One I did last year was for someone trying to get assignments done to get qualifications to then go out and get a job. Windows had been making life difficult or impossible and running a Linux system fixed her problems and she now has a job.

As the Goon Show used to say, "It's all in the mind you know."
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:11 pm
RollyShed wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:27 am
AwesomeOpossum74 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:11 pmAll of the moves from Windows to Linux that happened (outside my home) were due to Windows OS failures. They didn't want to pay for another Windows license, or get new hardware, so were ok with trying Linux. In all instances, they eventually moved back to Windows
Outside of your home they stay with Linux because they don't need any Windows apps and they want reliability and an easy to use system. It certainly applies to all of the installations I've done, 40+.
I keep trying to get my daughters to use or at least try Linux and get told: Daddy it is an old persons system, no one uses that.... Also I use Linux on my laptops because it meets all my needs.
Tell your daughters I said I don't appreciate being called "no one". :wink:
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To ensure the safety of your data, you have to be proactive, not reactive, so, back it up!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:11 pm
MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:11 pm
RollyShed wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:27 am
Outside of your home they stay with Linux because they don't need any Windows apps and they want reliability and an easy to use system. It certainly applies to all of the installations I've done, 40+.
I keep trying to get my daughters to use or at least try Linux and get told: Daddy it is an old persons system, no one uses that.... Also I use Linux on my laptops because it meets all my needs.
Tell your daughters I said I don't appreciate being called "no one". :wink:
Lol, I told her that I guess she is calling me old, and I got the “look”; Daddy you ARE old…..
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by harry_fine »

Simple things that should work, but don't.

Nemo has some good features, but chokes on big files, pastes files or folders into subfolders instead of folder you drag it to. Can't seem to set default view.

Selecting a file like a JPEG doesn't open an app I've selected as the default, instead it opens a dialogue where I choose from five apps

Only 2 full featured email programs, both of them lacking. It's like the Evolution devs (I use evolution) hate html. I can't drag old email into a new one as an attachment, as Microsoft Outlook can't read mbox. Gotta turn them to PDFs. Can't cut or copy and past messages between folders.....need to drag, sometimes a long way. Can't select specific font sizes when composing. Keeps forgetting email account passwords. And confusion about what the default Gnome email app is.

Use five different programs. Get five different file choosers (file open/close dialogue box), some so screwy I can't figure out how to use them. THAT IS MY SINGLE BIGGEST DAILY OS FRUSTRATION. Column widths in choosers not remembered.

Sound system in transition. X Windowing system in transition. Sound doesn't work well without a lot of tweaking of config files.

Bugs persist for years. Doing Google searches and see the same bugs in 2012. Devs have their own pet projects, they forget about fixing old issues.

Confusion about software from repositories vs flatpak. The only combination of Keepassxc which fully works (every feature) is snap for Keepassxc and repository for Firefox. I have snapd installed for one f...ing program. And the repository versions of important software is SO out of date.

Lack of a medium feature image manipulation program like paint net. Either too complex like Krita which has terrible text tools, or Pinta, which goes onto and out of active development.

Some great apps, OS stability, great networking tools. But what a disappointment if you are looking for a usable system.

So of you are a hobbiest with time on your hands, it's fine. For real world business, no way. I'm semi retired so it works for me. If I was busy...no way.

It's a mess. It will always be a mess and never get more than hobbiests as long as there is fragmentation rather than a team that focuses on solid consistent interface and software, getting it right and then moving on to the next project.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by RollyShed »

MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:42 pmLol, I told her that I guess she is calling me old, and I got the “look”; Daddy you ARE old…..
Is she out of nappys yet? She comes across as a 10 year old, if even that. Certainly my daughter by that age was running her own life. Yes, she knows how to run a computer a bit but is better as a welder and engineer and running a business.

harry_fine seems to have a lot of problems, and none of those do I have. I've had people move to Linux Mint to get their work done as Windows just wouldn't work reliably. I've personally found Linux reliable when Windows isn't, mainly due to them not testing before sending out upgrades.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

RollyShed wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:50 am ...harry_fine seems to have a lot of problems, and none of those do I have...
I had the same thoughts.
Jeannie

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by bin »

Simple things that should work, but don't.
Agreed - same as Windows and MacOS and Android and OS/2 and Solaris and CP/M....
Nemo has some good features, but chokes on big files, pastes files or folders into subfolders instead of folder you drag it to. Can't seem to set default view.
So you're using Cinnamon - not always the best choice but opinions vary. Agreed Nemo is a bit limted. So, install Thunar.[/quote]
Selecting a file like a JPEG doesn't open an app I've selected as the default, instead it opens a dialogue where I choose from five apps
I'm guessing Cinnamon has a Preferred Applications tool in its Settings/Control Panel? I have found that the normal method of Right Click>Open with Other>Select application>Tick Always do this... does not behave properly in MATE with Caja. Lasts till the end of the session then forgets. So had to use Preferred Applications.
Only 2 full featured email programs, both of them lacking. It's like the Evolution devs (I use evolution) hate html. I can't drag old email into a new one as an attachment, as Microsoft Outlook can't read mbox. Gotta turn them to PDFs. Can't cut or copy and past messages between folders.....need to drag, sometimes a long way. Can't select specific font sizes when composing. Keeps forgetting email account passwords. And confusion about what the default Gnome email app is.
Evolution is an acquired taste. Cannot comment on the Outlook thing. If you want to move a message from folder to another just Right Click>Move>Select destination That way it doesn't matter how far it has to go.
Fonts size - well Outlook uses the Word engine whereas Evo uses a standard HTML composer - they're different.
Use five different programs. Get five different file choosers (file open/close dialogue box), some so screwy I can't figure out how to use them. THAT IS MY SINGLE BIGGEST DAILY OS FRUSTRATION. Column widths in choosers not remembered.
Agreed - mostly due to different toolkits - GTK2/GTK3 etc I'm lookin' at you!!
..... And the repository versions of important software is SO out of date.
Hence Snap and flatpak......though Appimage is probably better. It depends on the App. I use Appimage for Scribus and a couple of others. Repos will always be out of date. If you demand cutting edge then it's Arch type stuff for you. Gentoo, etc etc. That way you'll really enjoy getting your hands dirty!
Lack of a medium feature image manipulation program like paint net. Either too complex like Krita which has terrible text tools, or Pinta, which goes onto and out of active development.
Far too broad a statement. Image manipulation can be anything from Photo editing to Painting by Numbers.
Some great apps, OS stability, great networking tools. But what a disappointment if you are looking for a usable system.

So of you are a hobbiest with time on your hands, it's fine. For real world business, no way. I'm semi retired so it works for me. If I was busy...no way.

It's a mess. It will always be a mess and never get more than hobbiests as long as there is fragmentation rather than a team that focuses on solid consistent interface and software, getting it right and then moving on to the next project.
That is why Gnome is doing what it is doing - and I have no qualms with that apart from some a******e telling me that some guideline says you need 3 clicks to shut down the machine..........
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper »

I had the opportunity to put the shoe on the other foot last night. I re-installed my licensed copy of Windows 10 in a VM - I had inadvertently removed a few months ago - since I really have no need for it or ever never even use it - it wasn't missed. But . . . . just for something to do and I own it I thought what the heck. And I have to say I am completely lost on a Windows system. I mean finding the terminal was not intuitive, at least not to me. I had to flounder around to find the CD in order to run VB Guest Addition (didn't auto-run ? ?) The MS browser was a huge turn-off but if that is what you are used to and like then . . . . . Nothing was where I am used to and comfortable with and it is slooooow although that is probably a function of being in a VM I would guess with on modern hardware with lots of RAM and a powerful CPU that is not a problem. Granted after several minutes and a little determination I found what I needed but I can understand some people what that familiarity.

The closest linux distro to Windows look and feel as far as I can tell as a non-Windows person is Linux fx which is based on Unbuntu - I looked at it and didn't like it (see above). Unfortunately Linux fx uses WINE extensively and has some some MS applications which begs the question if Linux fx are really gaining much in terms of mitigating Windows security/privacy vulnerabilities.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Schultz »

RollyShed wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:50 am
MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:42 pmLol, I told her that I guess she is calling me old, and I got the “look”; Daddy you ARE old…..
Is she out of nappys yet?
For us Americans, nappys are to us diapers. :wink:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Schultz wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:58 pm
RollyShed wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:50 am
MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:42 pmLol, I told her that I guess she is calling me old, and I got the “look”; Daddy you ARE old…..
Is she out of nappys yet?
For us Americans, nappys are to us diapers. :wink:
What's scary is I already knew that. And that nappy is short for napkin. :?
Jeannie

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Infidelus »

Schultz wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:58 pm For us Americans, nappys are to us diapers. :wink:
Americans have plenty of words that differ from Brits. Fanny pack* always makes me giggle like a child, because fanny has a VERY different meaning in the UK :lol:

* We call them bum-bags
Gaming exclusively on Linux since 2017. Windows can suck it!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

RollyShed wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:50 am
MurphCID wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:42 pmLol, I told her that I guess she is calling me old, and I got the “look”; Daddy you ARE old…..
Is she out of nappys yet? She comes across as a 10 year old, if even that. Certainly my daughter by that age was running her own life. Yes, she knows how to run a computer a bit but is better as a welder and engineer and running a business.

harry_fine seems to have a lot of problems, and none of those do I have. I've had people move to Linux Mint to get their work done as Windows just wouldn't work reliably. I've personally found Linux reliable when Windows isn't, mainly due to them not testing before sending out upgrades.
She is just a typical American Millennial/Gen Z sorority girl. Linux looks old compared to the more modern look of Apple or Windows. Linux looks 10-15 years behind Microsoft as a general rule. My oldest has the same feelings towards Linux, she told me that nothing good runs on Linux, and it looks old.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by absque fenestris »

The dearest company not so long ago screwed with the color scheme of the folders.
Is now Indian yellow.
You know what Indian yellow is made of?
Exactly! and looks accordingly. But modern. Well...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Infidelus wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:16 pm
Schultz wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:58 pm For us Americans, nappys are to us diapers. :wink:
Americans have plenty of words that differ from Brits. Fanny pack* always makes me giggle like a child, because fanny has a VERY different meaning in the UK :lol:

* We call them bum-bags
Yeah, about 180° different! :lol:
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To ensure the safety of your data, you have to be proactive, not reactive, so, back it up!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper »

absque fenestris wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:40 pm The dearest company not so long ago screwed with the color scheme of the folders.
Is now Indian yellow.
You know what Indian yellow is made of?
Exactly! and looks accordingly. But modern. Well...

Image
Yeah . . . . I don't get the "linux looks old" especially compared to Windows 10 or 11. The Windows 10/11 panel looks pretty much like Cinnamon and the start menu is cluttered. Although I would have to agree that the default Mint background is atrocious as is the default theme (do the dark theme crowd like them?). But the Cinnamon panel and icons are no worse than Windows. How hard would it be for Mint to change the defaults to something lighter and more attractive? Or even give a choice during the install. Want modern . . . How about a plank-like panel, Cinnamenu, a lighter theme and some nice unWindows icons by default.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

The kids (and others I have shown Linux desktops to), all have the perception that the Linux desktop is not attractive at all. Not sure why completely, but Windows and Mac OS just to me, look "prettier".
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper »

MurphCID wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:33 pm The kids (and others I have shown Linux desktops to), all have the perception that the Linux desktop is not attractive at all. Not sure why completely, but Windows and Mac OS just to me, look "prettier".
I never show someone interested in linux the live CD with default background and theme for the very reason you are alluding to. I always show them my laptop which has several user setting with various backgrounds and themes.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

majpooper wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:08 pm
MurphCID wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:33 pm The kids (and others I have shown Linux desktops to), all have the perception that the Linux desktop is not attractive at all. Not sure why completely, but Windows and Mac OS just to me, look "prettier".
I never show someone interested in linux the live CD with default background and theme for the very reason you are alluding to. I always show them my laptop which has several user setting with various backgrounds and themes.
Agreed, but even after I "spice it up", they still think it is unattractive.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Drugwash »

MurphCID wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:34 pm even after I "spice it up", they still think it is unattractive.
It's the fonts, the margins/borders of the windows, and generally everything GUI: they are diffuse, like blurred. Windows has crisp fonts, and at least when windows did have borders, they were very clear.
First time I ever saw a Linux years ago it all looked blurred, and that instantly made me hate it. I still do, after all the heavy customization. The theme in this Mint is exactly the one I used to use in XP - I ported it myself - and it still shows it's Linux. So yeah, maybe that's why young people find it old and unattractive.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by absque fenestris »

MurphCID wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:34 pm Agreed, but even after I "spice it up", they still think it is unattractive.

Linux users need to rethink

And it's this way: few people are privileged to see the sheer beauty of this Nemo window.
Windows lies here open in all its details and I can delete what I want at my whim... I mean - I don't want to destroy it, just trim it a bit - it's almost like gardening.
Works with a Mac too.

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