Software installation is the one and only weakness of Linux

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scryan
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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by scryan » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:57 am

centralized software manager is very nice and even better command line install of software from the internet is great. With the amount of typing it would take (and none of the clicking) to visit the website of the first piece of software on windows I could download and install 10 completely different programs on linux.

I realized I didn't have unzipping software I wanted,
1 click on my terminal pannel icon and a "sudo pacman -S unzip" "y" and its just working now.
I can update ever piece of software on my system by typing "sudo pacman -Syu" AND it doesn't complain at me over what is currently open, or tell me to shut everything down, or reboot 9 times....

It is VERY rare that I can't find the needed software in a repository... and arch doesn't have nearly the repositories that ubuntu/debian based systems can access...

As far as all software needed to be fiddle with. Ehh, maybe a little. Linux is a kernel, and a bunch of tools assembled around it. There is no right way for it to be built and different arrangements fit different peoples needs. Software is then developed by people to fit their needs based on their systems and they make it available to you too if you want to try and use it. So many people contribute to linux because they have a vision of what is needed and take it upon themselves to fill that need (either just making what they need or trying to improve what is available... All that leads to a lot of people contributing, a lot of different ideas, a lot of different directions and a lot of options. Things get complicated enough that eventually an automatically generated config will be pointed the wrong direction.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by xenopeek » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:29 am

scryan wrote:1 click on my terminal pannel icon and a "sudo pacman -S unzip" "y" and its just working now.
I can update ever piece of software on my system by typing "sudo pacman -Syu"
To anybody slightly confused what command scryan is using here, pacman is the package manager for Arch Linux--another Linux distribution.

Arch Linux has a slight edge over Linux Mint in convenience of installing software that isn't available in the repository as it has what is called a ports system--a repository of scripts created by Arch Linux users for automating installation and if needed compilation of software from outside the Arch Linux repository. Software that doesn't yet have a script in the AUR you can either add yourself (contribute!) or put in on the request list for other users to possibly create it for you. For example the media server programs OP was talking about that are so hard to install on Linux Mint (or in fact any Ubuntu or Debian distro) already have scripts in the AUR for automatic compilation and installation (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pms/ and https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ums/).

The same can be achieved for Linux Mint of course, if somebody--really anybody (hint hint, OP :))--is willing to make it easier for others to install the software by spending some time on it himself and set up a PPA so other users can then use the PPA to install the software from. Apparently nobody on any of the Ubuntu based distros has so far missed these two media server programs enough to take the time to do the work...
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scryan
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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by scryan » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:04 pm

xenopeek wrote:
scryan wrote:1 click on my terminal pannel icon and a "sudo pacman -S unzip" "y" and its just working now.
I can update ever piece of software on my system by typing "sudo pacman -Syu"
To anybody slightly confused what command scryan is using here, pacman is the package manager for Arch Linux--another Linux distribution.

Arch Linux has a slight edge over Linux Mint in convenience of installing software that isn't available in the repository as it has what is called a ports system--a repository of scripts created by Arch Linux users for automating installation and if needed compilation of software from outside the Arch Linux repository. Software that doesn't yet have a script in the AUR you can either add yourself (contribute!) or put in on the request list for other users to possibly create it for you. For example the media server programs OP was talking about that are so hard to install on Linux Mint (or in fact any Ubuntu or Debian distro) already have scripts in the AUR for automatic compilation and installation (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pms/ and https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ums/).

The same can be achieved for Linux Mint of course, if somebody--really anybody (hint hint, OP :))--is willing to make it easier for others to install the software by spending some time on it himself and set up a PPA so other users can then use the PPA to install the software from. Apparently nobody on any of the Ubuntu based distros has so far missed these two media server programs enough to take the time to do the work...
lol yeah I don't know apt commands well, and we are in general linux chat area so I went arch... but distro update aside the same things can be done with apt-get. The majority of my point is that while it may seem intimidating at first.... Command line based install when you issue one command and it will grab as many programs as you care to list with just a y and an enter key is amazing. More amazing when you realize it also gives you the ability to do things like feed in a saved list of programs to download and things like that. Certainly not weak, whether apt-get pacman or portage.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by MartyMint » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:48 pm

xenopeek wrote:
Arch Linux has a slight edge over Linux Mint in convenience of installing software that isn't available in the repository as it has what is called a ports system--a repository of scripts created by Arch Linux users for automating installation and if needed compilation of software from outside the Arch Linux repository.

Isn't that sort of what GDebi can do as well?

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by xenopeek » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:51 pm

No; GDebi can only install .deb packages--and only those already compiled. The AUR scripts will let you install --natively-- packages from whatever format, compiled or not.
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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by MartyMint » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:24 pm

Hmmm...interesting.
Thanks.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by robert-e » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:52 pm

This thread seems to be the right place to post this. If not, please retitle it and move it to a better place.

The suggestion was made recently that my adding a ppa to Linux Mint sources.list had (likely) broken my mint install, got me to thinking about program installs in general. While I don't think the ppa broke my system, I wondered about the pro's and con's of the various installation methods using:

Mint repos: pro's..easy installs, with little dep problems
con's..software version are (usually) dated; few security problems

PPA's: pro's..updated software versions; relatively easy to install
con's..getting signing keys; needs care to get correct (repo version);
..uncertaintly about security (who and how good was the compiler);
..posible conficts with already installed software.

Compile: pro's..can usually install any linux program, regardless of distro
con's..problems, at least in the past, with libc6
..kernel requirements; possible video problems.

Would anyone care to make comments on which they prefer; I do believe that using Linux should allow one to install any program without breakage, but in real life that is not always possible.

Regards.
Bob

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Post by SMarais » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:26 am

Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu. That means you have access to all the launchpad repositories! What else do you need? I use around 15 to 20 different repositories to keep my programs up to date over every version of Linux Mint.
Most of the editors have either a repository on launchpad or a similar one of their own using the launchpad key system.
So far I've never been force to compile my own program.
I have LM Running on all these computers

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by robert-e » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:08 pm

Not to start a controversy wrt software, but most recently I had to compile gnuradio, and iirc there was some compiling wrt a mate desktop under debian, and also in an experiment in getting netflix working.

A couple of years ago, I recall downloading sources from sourceforge, and compiling...can't recall what anymore, but I think it was some amateur radio programs.

Anyway, at this point I am more interested the experiences of others wrt to balancing keeping newer software vs keeping a stable system. Thanks for your repy.

Regards,
Bob

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by scryan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:49 pm

robert-e wrote:Not to start a controversy wrt software, but most recently I had to compile gnuradio, and iirc there was some compiling wrt a mate desktop under debian, and also in an experiment in getting netflix working.

A couple of years ago, I recall downloading sources from sourceforge, and compiling...can't recall what anymore, but I think it was some amateur radio programs.

Anyway, at this point I am more interested the experiences of others wrt to balancing keeping newer software vs keeping a stable system. Thanks for your repy.

Regards,
Bob
How long ago was the gnuradio? They have an install script that works on ubuntu and should work on mint... http://gnuradio.org/redmine/projects/gn ... dio-script

mate in debian & experimenting with netflix... Well OK if you are trying to make something work that is not intended to you may have some technical work to do... You can always find situations where you are hacking together a system and need to understand behind the scenes... But you could have also just used LMDE w/mate, and netflix desktop as well as pipelight w/user agent spoof work well. Point being if your going to demand particular software you may have issues, but if your willing to be open and just look for what is avalible that meets your needs you will likely be satisfied. In both those cases though the difficulty comes from the fact that at your doing things that are unsupported, not because software is difficult. Netflix in particular. It does not support linux and actively attempts to stop you from using it in linux.

However, to your last question... going to be a little distribution dependent. While its not for everyone Arch has been one of the more stable distributions I have run... Its also a rolling release that is QUICK to update. Every piece of software I have checked seems to be the latest stable version, they had the most recent version of skype up the same day it was released. Its pretty manual to install though and lots of command line.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by BobLuck » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:49 pm

I have to agree somwewhat with the views of Kholargol, in the last week I have downloaded, installed six different Linux Mint - KDE, Xfce and Mate, in both 64 and 32 bit. I am transfering two computers (one a 64-bit and one a 32 bit) over from Win7 - cause I didn't like or intend to use Win8.

It's the little things that are different from one installation to the next that irrerates me. On some of the installations setting up five desktops was easy and intuitive. I have always used five desktops - even in windows7. But I think I am going to final up on Mate (32-bit and 64-bit) but have not been able to figure out how to set up my five desktops, it sets up four. It was easy on some of the other installations, but not in Mate and in some of the others I believe it was done in a program called 'desktop settings' or something like that, but the program 'desktop settings' in Mate does not help and is of little value to me.

In my feeble mind I would think programs to set the way an installation is going to look and work should have the same name and allow the same setups and changes across all LinuxMint.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by scryan » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:10 pm

BobLuck wrote:I have to agree somwewhat with the views of Kholargol, in the last week I have downloaded, installed six different Linux Mint - KDE, Xfce and Mate, in both 64 and 32 bit. I am transfering two computers (one a 64-bit and one a 32 bit) over from Win7 - cause I didn't like or intend to use Win8.

It's the little things that are different from one installation to the next that irrerates me. On some of the installations setting up five desktops was easy and intuitive. I have always used five desktops - even in windows7. But I think I am going to final up on Mate (32-bit and 64-bit) but have not been able to figure out how to set up my five desktops, it sets up four. It was easy on some of the other installations, but not in Mate and in some of the others I believe it was done in a program called 'desktop settings' or something like that, but the program 'desktop settings' in Mate does not help and is of little value to me.

In my feeble mind I would think programs to set the way an installation is going to look and work should have the same name and allow the same setups and changes across all LinuxMint.
The folks at mint only develop mate and cinnamon. xfce and KDE are entirely separate from mint, the mint team just offers a version with them installed. Point being expecting consistency across xfce kde and mate is like expecting consistency across opera chrome and firefox.

Is there something in mate about workspaces?

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Re:

Post by Kholargol » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:23 am

SMarais wrote:Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu. That means you have access to all the launchpad repositories! What else do you need? I use around 15 to 20 different repositories to keep my programs up to date over every version of Linux Mint.
Most of the editors have either a repository on launchpad or a similar one of their own using the launchpad key system.
So far I've never been force to compile my own program.
Repositories wich are not updated neither for a new version of Ubuntu or 64 bits releases !

I'm a new and basic end-user (pleonasm!) so, when I want to install an app which isn't in the store, I search for official manuals or tutos/wiki and I copy/paste command lines that often, sorry to say that, doesn't work because documents are not updated.

Once again (and the last I promise), my dream is to be able to install stuffs without all this problems ..

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Post by SMarais » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:44 am

Kholargol wrote:Repositories wich are not updated neither for a new version of Ubuntu or 64 bits releases !
huuuuuu what an ugly thing to read... Not only it is wrong, also it is a misunderstanding of how it works.

So let's be clear. Not all repositories are maintained. But the most import ones are. Also once you find a tutorial it can be adapted to a newer version but certainly nit exactly copy pasted like it.

Now sometimes it is possible to have a software available for older versions but not updated but that still can work on a newer release. You can try it yourself.

Copy paste the command line to add the ppa. Then edit as root the file under /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ and change the distribution to an older one trusty/saucy/raring/quantal/...

Update and install.
Last edited by SMarais on Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by BobLuck » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:06 pm

scryan wrote:
The folks at mint only develop mate and cinnamon. xfce and KDE are entirely separate from mint, the mint team just offers a version with them installed. Point being expecting consistency across xfce kde and mate is like expecting consistency across opera chrome and firefox.
Exactly my point, I do expect some consistency. I have used all three of these browsers and have never had a problem seting the up or using them.
BobLuck

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by InkKnife » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:00 pm

I have no idea why anyone would expect consistency across several different desktop environments. Cinnamon, MATE, KDE and XFCE are separate projects pursuing different goals. That they are different from one another is the reason they exist.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by Incentive I.C » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:37 am

For example the media server programs OP was talking about that are so hard to install on Linux Mint (or in fact any Ubuntu or Debian distro) already have scripts in the AUR for automatic compilation and installation (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/pms/ and https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ums/).

You sure its a problem because i found a PPA of it and they have an offical tarball that you can compile from source if you want. The offical tarball from the website was updated 2013-11-16 and the AUR was updated 8-30-2013. So before using AUR wouldn't it be better to check and see if the application you want to download already has a tarball you can compile from?
The best way to learn from it is break it OS's (is there a plural for OS?) included.

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Re: Software installation is the one and only weakness of Li

Post by Incentive I.C » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:41 am

BobLuck wrote:
scryan wrote:
The folks at mint only develop mate and cinnamon. xfce and KDE are entirely separate from mint, the mint team just offers a version with them installed. Point being expecting consistency across xfce kde and mate is like expecting consistency across opera chrome and firefox.
Exactly my point, I do expect some consistency. I have used all three of these browsers and have never had a problem seting the up or using them.
BobLuck
I dont think you quite understand what he was saying.
The best way to learn from it is break it OS's (is there a plural for OS?) included.

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Re:

Post by Kholargol » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:32 am

SMarais wrote:
Kholargol wrote:Repositories wich are not updated neither for a new version of Ubuntu or 64 bits releases !
huuuuuu what an ugly thing to read... Not only it is wrong, also it is a misunderstanding of how it works.
So let's be clear. Not all repositories are maintained. But the most import ones are. Also once you find a tutorial it can be adapted to a newer version but certainly nit exactly copy pasted like it.
Now sometimes it is possible to have a software available for older versions but not updated but that still can work on a newer release. You can try it yourself.
Copy paste the command line to add the ppa. Then edit as root the file under /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ and change the distribution to an older one trusty/saucy/raring/quantal/...
Update and install.
You still don't understand or don't want too. From MY experience (which is not YOURS), ALMOST EACH TIME, I want to install an app, icon set, driver or else I've got some trouble ! Why should I lie about that ? Call me newbie if you want (no problem, it's what I am !) but in my opinion, even a newbie should be able to install apps as easily it's to make a fresh install of the entire OS (and it is when this app is avaialble in the store)

I know that I can change the distrib because I always have to do that. But it's not always enough to solve problem.

PS : one important detail: I'm in 64 bits and so, I'm using 64 distribs)

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Post by SMarais » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:16 am

Kholargol wrote:From MY experience (which is not YOURS), ALMOST EACH TIME, I want to install an app, icon set, driver or else I've got some trouble ! Why should I lie about that ?
From my experience which is based on over 1000 installations of Linux over the years I know I have seen a lot of reasons for an install to fail. And each time it was for a good reason. Each time it was my fault. Computers are never wrong.
Kholargol wrote:Call me newbie if you want (no problem, it's what I am !) but in my opinion, even a newbie should be able to install apps as easily it's to make a fresh install of the entire OS (and it is when this app is avaialble in the store)
As a newbie you should calm down a bit and listen to people who have a bit of experience with the software. Remember when you started on windows, you felt lost and you had to learn about new things. Well it's the same here. One of the most important thing to learn on Linux is command line. Command line gives more infos than a GUI tool. I barely use gdebi and almost never the software center. I try to find the official ppa for the software I seek and then work from there. If you try to use a very old software you should try to look for a software more recent. Softwares on Linux are evolving really fast.
Kholargol wrote:I know that I can change the distrib because I always have to do that. But it's not always enough to solve problem.
Then probably the software is really too old. Or maybe you have removed something you shouldn't have so sometimes a clean reinstall may also help... Except when you try to fix a printer connection issue with a clean install and the only thing you need to do is change the cartridge... True story ^^
Kholargol wrote:PS : one important detail: I'm in 64 bits and so, I'm using 64 distribs)
64bits is the only system I use on quite all my devices. Except of course for really old laptops.
I have LM Running on all these computers

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