Systemd

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JusTertii
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Systemd

Postby JusTertii » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:37 pm

Why all the hate for system.d?
Last edited by r00t on Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Systemd

Postby Edward M. Grant » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:48 pm

JusTertii wrote:Why all the hate for system.d?


Because it started as a good idea (replacing the clunky old init scripts), but is now trying to take over most of the operating system.

I don't have a particular opinion either way, but it's breaking from traditional Unix/Linux development by building a huge glob of code that's hard to replace. That worries a lot of people.

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Re: Systemd

Postby xenopeek » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:46 am

Perhaps informative to hear this interview by the Linux Action Show folks with one of the systemd project's developers, to understand more about the project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gH8#t=2098

As for the hate; try and ignore it. Nothing positive comes from hate.
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Re: Systemd

Postby JusTertii » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:42 am

Thanks for the info! Apologies for the tardy reply -- life got in the way (you know how it is!).

So, would it be fair to draw the following analogy, then (to aid my understanding)? If we use the example of a generic script, it's like removing calls to other procedures and incorporating it all into the one script?

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Re: Systemd

Postby linx255 » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:20 am

Hatred is an emotion and not one I usually associate with productivity, but there is nothing wrong with curiosity and criticism...I watched the video and also read this: http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torv ... s-systemd/ .

I'm no expert on systemd or upstart, or anything like that, but the fact of the controversy is enough for me to be concerned.

The video didn't sell me on systemd, and the arguments made by the critical devs seem valid to me. He refers to the democratic process of the project being open-source, but I read about devs who say it's not democratic. Is this criticism unfounded? Why would they say that? Was there a vote? What were the results? How was the decision made if not democratically?

Also, I read Debian took a vote on whether to have the freedom to choose systemd or upstart. Are the results of that vote in? Without knowing how such a vote would impact the Debian project and potentially any distros based on it ( or much about systemd or upstart for that matter ) I can't say I'm qualified to vote on the issue, but on the surface it seems like a fair and good idea to have the freedom to choose. I mean, why not?

This video made me feel better about systemd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvy0e9kbAos . But what do I know? ;-)
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Re: Systemd

Postby mike acker » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:58 pm

DEVUAN ( fork )

it seems the opposition to system.d is palpable

personally, at this point, I want to go with the new LMDE stable version when that becomes available sometime in the coming months. I'll just get me a new HD and go to it!!

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Re: Systemd

Postby /dev/urandom » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:38 pm

mike acker wrote:DEVUAN ( fork )


I'd call it a dead horse unless it gains significant market share. For now, probably Void Linux and Slackware Linux are the better choices.
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Re: Systemd

Postby SC23 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:15 am

I came to pose the same question. Out and about I not only hear the hate but also about how it is somehow a backdoor or some security issue. Anyone want to chime in on that aspect?

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Re: Systemd

Postby mike acker » Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:28 am

SC23 wrote:I came to pose the same question. Out and about I not only hear the hate but also about how it is somehow a backdoor or some security issue. Anyone want to chime in on that aspect?


xenopeek has asked us to tread lightly on this topic and I wish to respect that.

I think it will be difficult to install a "back door" in any critical open-source software. this concept has been generally accepted for some time now and recently pretty much confirmed by Ed Snowden's comments on PGP/GnuPG
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Re: Systemd

Postby Crewp » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:04 am

LMDE 2 Betsy, will not be using systemd, so for us it is a moot point. Clem has stated he wants to give systemd time to develop, which is a good idea. Maybe a couple years from now the Linux community will have come around to systemd. Or maybe decide to take a different approach.
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Re: Systemd

Postby SC23 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:09 pm

mike acker wrote:
SC23 wrote:I came to pose the same question. Out and about I not only hear the hate but also about how it is somehow a backdoor or some security issue. Anyone want to chime in on that aspect?


<snip>
xenopeek has asked us to tread lightly on this topic and I wish to respect that.
<snip>



I agree that discussing FUD is counter-productive. I do however think that honest and open discussion is part of our "Open" culture in the Linux community. In my 2 years now since I broke the shackles of Windows I have never seen an issue so hotly debated out and about in our community. I suppose that until it is implemented, we really don't know exactly the contents and effects of systemd, so at this point everyone is really just guessing and spinning it one way or the other. Still, I think at least a discussion of what the issues, both good and bad, out on the table without the rabid hate would be enlightening for everyone, especially people like me who aren't the most knowledgeable on the inner workings of LInux but still have an honest interest in knowing whats going on.

I do understand as well that once we start an open discussion it may be we cant really stop the rabid dogs from exploding the issue and turning it into a mess for everyone... still.. I hope we lean on the side of open for all of our sakes.

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Re: Systemd

Postby xenopeek » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:51 pm

The Linux Action Show interview with one of the lead developers is useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gH8#t=2098
Linux Voice have also interviewed Lennart, and you can read most of the article (rest is in the magazine): http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/

Those two, at least for me, really help set the stage for what systemd is and along with the informative How Linux Works, 2nd edition book I'm currently reading makes a lot of things clear.

While the project started out as just an init system, under the wings of the project are now also other components developed that have to do with service management or are closely related to it. The "plumbing" of your OS.

The concern you allude to, I assume, has to do with the fact that systemd has a lot of auxiliary programs. Many of these just run the standard system utilities (like systemd-fsck runs fsck) but notify systemd init of the results, as the standard system utilities lack that functionality. I'll quote from the book mentioned above:
One other interesting aspect of these programs is that they are written in C, because one goal of systemd is to reduce the number of shell scripts on a system. There is some debate as to whether it's a good idea to do so (after all, many of these programs could probably be written as shell scripts), but as long as everything works and does so reliably, securely, and reasonable quickly, there's little reason to bother taking sides.

systemd is a free software project (e.g., collaboratively developed open source) so I have no concerns about backdoors or security issues, just because some part of a project was written in C instead of as shell scripts.
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Re: Systemd

Postby exploder » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:58 pm

I have Korora 21 now installed on my desktop and laptop. Being built on Fedora it of course is using systemd. As I understand the biggest complaint about systemd is that you can not watch custom scripts run when you boot up. Personally, I think systemd gives a cleaner experience on boot. This is nothing more than my personal opinion and I think that a large amount of the dislike for systemd is based on FUD.

RedHat is a major contributor to so many projects and I think they are in some way tryng to improve the user experience. RedHat is the most commercially successful Linux based company so I am willing to put some trust in their work. If systemd really is not that good than things will most likely go in another direction. Change is constant in Linux, it always will be. My advise is to just relax and see where things go.

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Re: Systemd

Postby SC23 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:04 pm

So it appears that the major whine is that there is compiled C in it, and that those parts are not easily visible as to whats going on? Is that C source not available and compileable? Or am I just missing it all together?

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Re: Systemd

Postby linx255 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:43 pm

So it appears that the major whine is that there is compiled C in it, and that those parts are not easily visible as to whats going on?


Who is predominantly saying this? I mean, devs I assume, but anyone/group specifically?

Which parts are not easily visible? What is meant by "not easily visible"?
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Re: Systemd

Postby MartyMint » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:16 pm

People make stuff up all the time...

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Re: Systemd

Postby SC23 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:58 pm

linx255 wrote:
So it appears that the major whine is that there is compiled C in it, and that those parts are not easily visible as to whats going on?


Who is predominantly saying this? I mean, devs I assume, but anyone/group specifically?

Which parts are not easily visible? What is meant by "not easily visible"?


It was a question. Not a statement.. Thus the weird squiggle at the end. All I know is on some techyforms i go to it is interjected into many conversations with rabid hatred and I am trying to understand why. I was asking if that assumption of the c compiled nature was the reason because it made knowing what was going on more difficult.

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Re: Systemd

Postby linx255 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:00 pm

It was a question. Not a statement.. Thus the weird squiggle at the end. All I know is on some techyforms i go to it is interjected into many conversations with rabid hatred and I am trying to understand why. I was asking if that assumption of the c compiled nature was the reason because it made knowing what was going on more difficult.


SC23, I wasn't saying you were making a statement, just adding questions to your question. Sorry for the confusion. 8)
Last edited by linx255 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Systemd

Postby MALsPa » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:05 am

exploder wrote:If systemd really is not that good than things will most likely go in another direction. Change is constant in Linux, it always will be. My advise is to just relax and see where things go.

I agree with this.

Whatever, Fedora already had systemd when I was running that distro. I was using Sabayon when they switched over to systemd. Right now I have Arch, openSUSE, and Debian Jessie installed, all of which ship with systemd. Hasn't been a big deal for me. So many articles and heated debates out there about it... it's interesting, kinda fascinating, sometimes humorous. Lots of people out there are just repeating things they've read. One friend of mine says that his issues with systemd are not technical, but philosophical, and that he'll probably switch over from Debian to FreeBSD. Okay.

What I know is that a lot of people who know a lot more about this than I do are fine with systemd. (And a lot of others are not.) I've read that Linus Torvalds has systemd on his computers. Debian's going with it. I figure that if it's good enough for Torvalds and Debian, then I'm fine with it too.

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Re: Systemd

Postby InkKnife » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:35 pm

The technical merits, or lack of, with Systemmd are way over my head but as a long time (30 years+) computer user and technology fan it seems to me that the opposition to systemd seems very emotional and not always based on the facts as I understand them. I see a lot of claims that systemd "takes over" to many services but my research tells me that systemd can take over a lot if a developer wants past the init system and journaling the other systemd parts are optional and that systemd does play well with other, traditional services.
Maybe I am naive but I highly doubt that both Fedora and Debian are both going to implement a bad init system and given the nature of GNU/Linux, if systemd does cause problems those problems will be solved swiftly and well.

I am most troubled by the tone taken by a lot of people in this controversy. I love a technological debate, even a heated one, but we should argue on merit and avoid personal attacks and I have seen too much of that in this debate. I have to say I am fairly appalled at some of the vindictive words thrown at Lennart Poettering.
We, the GNU/Linux community are better than that.
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