I give up

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jaross
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I give up

Post by jaross » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:22 am

Maybe Linux is not for me. I am very computer savvy when it comes to Windows and Mac. I have built from scratch and fixed numerous computers. I don't get it. Mint advertises that its easy to use but its not. When I install something, I want a file that I double click on. Not to compile and link it to libraries (I don't even know what libraries are, is it similar to a codec?) and install 5 other little programs just to get it to work.

Here are two examples:

1) I am trying to get music to play on my bluetooth speaker. The following instructions actually worked, but only once. Each time I want to play music on my bluetooth speaker I have to run through the last two commands in terminal: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions ... debian-edi

If linux mint is so great and innovative and easy to use, why can't they make it simple and easy for a bluetooth speaker to work. isn't a speaker the primary bluetooth component anybody ever uses?!!


2) I want to install a program called soulseek. Here are the instructions which I have absolutely no idea how to follow:

http://www.slsknet.org/news/node/482

Am I typing that in a command line? With each new line, do I hit the enter key? Do I start a new terminal window with each new command? Why can't they explain this crap so a normal human can understand and follow? I shouldn't have to be a computer genius to be able to get my computer working. Most importantly, if they went through all the work to make a linux version of the program, why cant they make it work off the bat?!?!



I am sorry to vent a little. Maybe I can get some actual help though. I love the idea of an open source operating system that is easy and free for everyone, and I hate giving Microsoft money, but as of now I have re-installed Windows 7 on my computer. I use Photomatix, Photoshop and Propellerhead Reason. All powerful programs that will not run in Linux and with how things were going for me, I highly doubt I would be able to get something like WINE to work, especially with all the MIDI drivers and whatnot I use with my hardware in Reason. GIMP is NOT a suitable substitute for Photoshop by any measure and I couldn't find a good RAW image editor like Photomatix either. The alternatives on linux are simply harder to use/more complicated. I love the no maintenance aspect of Linux. I loved how once you had things set up they just worked *(Except for bluetooth). I love the bare bones aspect of it. But maybe linux just isn't for me!

Thoughts?

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pekoe
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Re: I give up

Post by pekoe » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:08 am

Linus Torvalds (father of Linux kernel) even stated he has a company that compiles binaries for Windows and Mac, not Linux, because there are way to many different dependencies etc. He said compiling binaries for Linux is a pain in the ass.

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pekoe
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Re: I give up

Post by pekoe » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:11 am

jaross wrote:Most importantly, if they went through all the work to make a linux version of the program, why cant they make it work off the bat?!?!
Windows programs work.
Mac programs work.
Linux programs must be maintained by people and tested to make sure it doesn't break the system from every update. Then maybe.

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Pilosopong Tasyo
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Re: I give up

Post by Pilosopong Tasyo » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:14 am

jaross wrote:Thoughts?
Yes, a few things:
  1. Welcome to the forum.
  2. Quite unfortunate that your initial experience was unpleasant.
  3. You posted in the Newbie section, but most of the content of your initial post is a rant, rather than a request for help, hence it's moved to a more appropriate section, namely "Chat about Linux."
  4. Rants tend to invite flame wars, even if a post is partially a cry for help. Rants and flames DON'T help in solving a problem.
  5. If you indeed need someone to help you, then I advise you to create a new thread in the appropriate section and ask (politely), sans the negative attitude.
And on that note, thread locked.

Edit: Reviewed and reopened. If you wish to continue discussing the merits and demerits of Linux, carry on. But keep it civil. Thanks.
o Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime!
o If an issue has been fixed, please edit your first post and add the word [SOLVED].

jaross
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Re: I give up

Post by jaross » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:09 am

Pilosopong Tasyo wrote:
jaross wrote:Thoughts?
Yes, a few things:
  1. Welcome to the forum.
  2. Quite unfortunate that your initial experience was unpleasant.
  3. You posted in the Newbie section, but most of the content of your initial post is a rant, rather than a request for help, hence it's moved to a more appropriate section, namely "Chat about Linux."
  4. Rants tend to invite flame wars, even if a post is partially a cry for help. Rants and flames DON'T help in solving a problem.
  5. If you indeed need someone to help you, then I advise you to create a new thread in the appropriate section and ask (politely), sans the negative attitude.
And on that note, thread locked.

Edit: Reviewed and reopened. If you wish to continue discussing the merits and demerits of Linux, carry on. But keep it civil. Thanks.
I see. Yes, civilized of course. I respect what I deem as the intention and ideas behind Linux.

I wanted an honest discussion on weather or not the fine people here do indeed think linux is for me or not (feel free to try convince me, I won't take it personal).

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mohaimen
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Re: I give up

Post by mohaimen » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:28 am

I am also a new Linux user just like you. I first tried Linux a few years ago. It was Ubuntu 13.04. It had some sort of AMD driver issue so it was always open up in low-graphics mode. Got frustrated and I ditch Ubuntu. Than one of my friend told me about mint. So I got Linux mint 13 (Maya). It was flawless but I use DSL internet connection and I can't connect to my ISP and again dump everything and start using windows 7 again. Then recently I think why not give it an another try. So I installed Ubuntu 14.04. Well, I was impressed. It improved a lot. No AMD driver issue and its looking great. But it still has some bug (some file manager bug that I can't tolerate). So, I ditch it again and start mint mate 17.1. When I switched to mint mate I really unable to complain about anything. Its just flawless. Still using mint mate for day to day use and still has win 7 on my duel boot. After using it for a few month I come to a conclusion.

My realization is; Linux is completely different beast compared to windows and mac. To me windows and mac are already tamed and trained (because you give buck load of money to the trainer); on the other hand Linux is wild and savage who can eat you up if you unable to tame her; so you have to learn how to tame it. Learning curve is not so steep either(hell I even learn some basic command to learn how terminal work; and guess what I found it is much more easy compared to MSDOS command prompt). Once you get comfortable with it you might not want to switch you environment.

And yes GIMP is not Photoshop alternative. Not even close. But it will get you there. If you are a designer than GIMP is surely not for you. I am a web developer and I do JavaScript mostly. I have to manipulate PSD file everyday and for that I use GIMP. It was really not a pleasant experience to switch from photoshop to GIMP; But now I know how GIMP work. And it is not that bad. On some point it's work better than Photoshop. Switching environment is always tough. But you have to get used to it. And Linux is more mature now. More user friendly. It still has some pitfall but all we have to know how to get around it.

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jimallyn
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Re: I give up

Post by jimallyn » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:00 am

Regarding item 2, there is a client for the SoulSeek network called Nicotine available for Mint. Click Menu, Administration, Synaptic, and enter your password when it asks for it. (I'm assuming you are using the Cinnamon desktop. If not, you'll have to find Synaptic.) Type 'nicotine' (without the quotes) into the search box. Click on the box to the left of the name nicotine, then click Mark for installation. Now click Apply. And there you go, you have installed a SoulSeek client. There's another client available called murmur, so you actually have a choice of two SoulSeek clients.
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jimallyn
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Re: I give up

Post by jimallyn » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:13 am

I've never used Bluetooth, so I'm afraid I can't help you there. There is a Bluetooth manager application at Menu, Preferences, Bluetooth. Maybe that will help you.

As far as editing images, Gimp is probably the best there is for Linux. It has a bit of a learning curve, but it is very powerful and will do pretty much everything that Photoshop will do.

I had to Google for Reason, as i had never heard of it before. There is a DAW for Linux called Ardour. It is also available for install in Synaptic. For simpler stuff, you might try Audacity.

Don't give up yet. When I first started using Linux, I had a dual boot system. I did everything I could in Linux, but I would have to boot into Windows now and then for things I didn't yet know how to do in Linux. That was 13 years ago, and my current computer has only Linux on it. Stick with it, it will grow on you.

In general, you should ask questions here on the Mint forums before you spend a lot of time searching the web. Somebody here will almost certainly know the answers to your questions. And if not, there's a good chance somebody will figure it out for you.
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jimallyn
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Re: I give up

Post by jimallyn » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:14 am

Pjotr, was that really necessary? If I were a moderator, I would probably delete your post. Play nice.
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Pilosopong Tasyo
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Re: I give up

Post by Pilosopong Tasyo » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:17 am

jimallyn wrote:Pjotr, was that really necessary? If I were a moderator, I would probably delete your post. Play nice.
Good idea. Done. :|
o Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime!
o If an issue has been fixed, please edit your first post and add the word [SOLVED].

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Pilosopong Tasyo
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Re: I give up

Post by Pilosopong Tasyo » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:24 am

jaross wrote:When I install something, I want a file that I double click on.
It's called mindset. Bear in mind that just because you have been used to a dominant platform for years, doesn't necessarily mean that all other platforms follow suit. There's the Windows way, and there's the Linux way. Have a read at this thread.

Also, there is a certain degree of learning curve. It all depends on the user. For some, switching from Windows to Linux is relatively easy. For others, they experience technical difficulties, most of the time, hardware incompatibilities. But hey, don't blame Linux if the hardware doesn't work with it. The only reason why a piece of hardware works in Windows and Mac is because the manufacturer provided drivers for those two platforms. If they provide proper Linux drivers that are at par with the Windows and Mac counterparts, we wouldn't have issues with peripherals.

The same goes with software. Windows software is a hit-or-miss game in desktop Linux, as far as WINE is concerned. But is it Linux' fault Adobe Photoshop and Microsoft Office don't have native versions? Nope. Users bark at the wrong tree. Rather than complaining that Linux doesn't run a piece of Windows software natively, they should complain to the software vendors for not making Linux versions.
jaross wrote:The alternatives on linux are simply harder to use/more complicated.
Before 2009, I used Windows, Adobe PageMaker, Corel PhotoPaint, Corel Draw, and MS-Office at work (I'm into desktop publishing). Been using these pieces of software for many years. Then in 2009, a catalyst made me take a look at alternatives. It dawned on me that I might be able to do these things in Linux. So I researched and read. And experimented. It took time, effort, and there was a learning curve. But I was determined. In the end, the Linux alternatives worked equally well as the Windows counterparts. So now, I use Ubuntu, Scribus, GIMP, Inkscape and LibreOffice.

Never looked back.
jaross wrote:I wanted an honest discussion on weather or not the fine people here do indeed think linux is for me or not (feel free to try convince me, I won't take it personal).
Nobody is going to try or force you to stick with Linux. That decision is really up to you. Be pragmatic. Use what works.
o Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime!
o If an issue has been fixed, please edit your first post and add the word [SOLVED].

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karlchen
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Re: I give up

Post by karlchen » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:08 am

Hello, jaross.
Maybe Linux is not for me. I am very computer savvy when it comes to Windows and Mac. I have built from scratch and fixed numerous computers. I don't get it. Mint advertises that its easy to use but its not. When I install something, I want a file that I double click on. Not to compile and link it to libraries (I don't even know what libraries are, is it similar to a codec?) and install 5 other little programs just to get it to work.
Well, jaross. I suspect that, being a Windows and Mac user for a long time, you are trying to do things on Linux Mint in the Windows or Mac way, instead of doing it in the Linux Mint way.
In particular with respect to installing software there is a nice concise summary on how to approach this task on Linux Mint, written by xenopeek, here:
How to install software on Linux Mint (hm, had already been mentioned by Pilosopong Tasyo)
So only the last resort is getting the source codes and compiling the software yourself. In this case you should, however, have a basic understanding of how to handle the terminal window and of how to enter commandlines there. - But after all this is not so completely different from using the commandline on Windows in cmd.exe.
Briefly:
If you insist on looking at Linux Mint or any other Linux distribution as a badly designed clone of the Windows operating system, then you will not have much fun with Linux. Linux Mint and any other Linux distributions are no Windows clones, bad ones or good ones. Linux Mint is an operating system just like Windows is and Mac OS is. Identify the similarities and the things that are different. And learn new ways of achieving your goals on Linux Mint, just like you learnt how to achieve them on Windows and Mac in the past.

Cheers,
Karl
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Re: I give up

Post by fraxinus_63 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:21 am

I have been using and loving Linux for many years but I feel your pain re. poor documentation - sometimes inadequate, sometimes poorly written, sometimes non-existent.

I am not able to offer much help with your two specific queries. However, when it comes to installing software your first port of call should always be your package manager. It took me c. 18 months to really appreciate that the huge majority of softwares I need can be downloaded and installed in this manner, using an automated system that not only installs the desired programme but also any other programmes and libraries that it needs to run. Downloading programmes from the internet, and then installing them in the manner required by a Windows .exe file, is very seldom needed. Linux documentation for new users does not emphasise this enough.

For example - I don't know SoulSeek at all, but if you open your package manager and type "soulseek" in the search box, you will be served with a list of SoulSeek clients. If you choose one of them (e.g. nicotine), it will be downloaded and installed automatically along with all its dependencies. Then, my understanding is you can start configuring it to connect to a SoulSeek account.

All the best. I hope you can stick with us and find solutions to your issues.

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Re: I give up

Post by Maik » Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:23 am

I'm new to Linux and have never used OS-X or Photoshop. I have to agree that documentation for Linux can be lacking / confusing and I miss certain little (free) image editors available in WIndows. However, I think each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses, at one time (maybe still) the Mac OS was better than Windows for certain things but, for most people, a Windows PC was the best choice, if only due to cost. At least there is a choice and, for now, Linux Mint is quite OK for my (limited) needs. As Linux usage continues to grow maybe even more, and better, programs will be available. Until then I understand that Linux may not be best for everyone.

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Re: I give up

Post by Aristotelian » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:24 am

If Linux Mint is not for you, go ahead back to Windows/Mac. If you want stuff that is free and open source, you have to make certain sacrifices. You cannot assume that the available software will have every function of the comparable Windows/Mac programs, and you have to be prepared for stuff to break occasionally. It is almost certainly a bad idea to use it for professional purposes because everybody else in the professional world is going to be using WIndows/Mac, and there is more money for development and support. You should not go into Linux with the expectation that everything is going to work smoothly and with the same functionality that you are accustomed to.

Yes, whenever you see instructions for manually entering Linux commands, you open the "Terminal" and run them through there.

Regarding installation of software in general, most commonly maintained applications can indeed be easily installed with one click through the Software Manager of most Mint/Ubuntu distributions. If you are installing something more obscure (like Soulseek) then it is up to the developers to tell you how to install it and you do so at your own risk. More packages and their dependencies are maintained in Synaptic Package Manager, which also installs programs automatically. If you can't find what you are looking for there, then and only then should you attempt to install things manually.

Regarding Soulseek, I agree that the forum post you linked to is very poorly written. Check out post #6 in this thread. It actually appears to be quite simple.
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=177384

Regarding bluetooth, all I can say is keep plugging away looking in forums like this for advice. You can even start your own thread and possibly get a solution. In defense of Linux, I will say that I have had plenty of terrible bluetooth experiences on my Macbook Air. I have to re-pair my $70 trackpad and keyboard every time I want to use them, which involves taking them outside my building to force them into discoverable mode.

Anyway, if Linux does not work for you so be it. Nobody on here is going to prostletize to you. Plenty of people dual boot Windows and Linux because there are some things that only Windows can do and vice versa.

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Flemur
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Re: I give up

Post by Flemur » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:32 am

Mint advertises that its easy to use but its not. When I install something, I want a file that I double click on.

If you want to install things the same way as in windows, stick with windows.

Normal software (99% of it) is installed like:
$ apt-get install software-name
or by running a "software manager" with a GUI, selecting what you want and hitting "install".

Pretty easy. 99% of the time.

Here are two examples:
1) I am trying to get music to play on my bluetooth speaker.


Linux's audio is probably is probably it's weakest feature, so that's a valid point.

2) I want to install a program called soulseek. Here are the instructions which I have absolutely no idea how to follow:
http://www.slsknet.org/news/node/482


That's an awful website. I tend to think that awful websites go along with awful software, so why not use something else? "Soulseek is an ad-free, spyware free, just plain free file sharing network for Windows, Mac and Linux." Aren't there several hundred other chunks of software that do the same thing? Have you looked for "file sharing" in the software manager?
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
Your data and OS are backed up....right?
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Re: I give up

Post by altair4 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:34 am

2) I want to install a program called soulseek. Here are the instructions which I have absolutely no idea how to follow:

http://www.slsknet.org/news/node/482

Am I typing that in a command line? With each new line, do I hit the enter key? Do I start a new terminal window with each new command? Why can't they explain this crap so a normal human can understand and follow? I shouldn't have to be a computer genius to be able to get my computer working. Most importantly, if they went through all the work to make a linux version of the program, why cant they make it work off the bat?!?!
I have no idea what soulseek is but I think they did.

On a Mint17 Cinnamon test system:

*** I downloaded the application ( the 32 bit version in my experiment ) from here: http://www.soulseekqt.net/news/node/1
*** Double clicked the SoulseekQt-2014-11-30-32bit.tgz file to extract it into my "Downloads" folder.
*** Then double clicked the SoulseekQt-2014-11-30-32bit file.

Is this supposed to be what it looks like:
SoulSeek.png
It seems to be a self contained executable application which admittedly is somewhat of a rarity in Linux outside of a java application.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.

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Flemur
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Re: I give up

Post by Flemur » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:50 am

mohaimen So I got Linux mint 13 (Maya). It was flawless but I use DSL internet connection and I can't connect to my ISP and again dump everything and start using windows 7 again.

I used Mint 13 with DSL without any problems.

But it still has some bug (some file manager bug that I can't tolerate). So, I ditch it again and start mint mate 17.1.

You're aware that there are at least a half-dozen good usable file managers ...?

To me windows and mac are already tamed and trained (because you give buck load of money to the trainer);

I like that analogy! But I've had far more system and software hassles with windows than linux. Windows might be "tame", but it's very poorly trained (Dunno anything about Macs).

I used Unix before Windows came out, and never stopped thinking that Windows was a laughable mess from the get-go, put together with duct-tape and bailing wire, a system meant for secretaries to type and email office memos.

It was really not a pleasant experience to switch from photoshop to GIMP;

I'm sure the reverse is also true. Though weird software design choices make gimp's workflow inferior to photoshop's, it's got a lot a capabilities, pretty close to photoshop.
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
Your data and OS are backed up....right?
Mint 19.1 Xfce/fluxbox
Manjaro openbox/fluxbox

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Re: I give up

Post by jaross » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:38 pm

Nicotine maybe on the soulseek network but the program is not as good. When a search is performed it does not find as many results. There are other programs that do things similar to soulseek, but none have the selection of files to download and its that simple.

Thanks for the responses, its an interesting discussion. I understand the software managed and largely I like it.

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Re: I give up

Post by jimallyn » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:08 am

I can't imagine why nicotine wouldn't find as many files as soulseek, since they both use the same network. But, if soulseek finds more files, then use it. I did the same as altair4 did: downloaded the .tgz file, navigated to where I saved it with the file manager, right clicked on the .tgz file and clicked Extract Here, then double clicked the extracted file. I didn't create a user name and actually try the program out, but it looks like it should work just fine. Oh, then I used the Menu Editor to add it to the Internet folder in the Menu, and that starts the program just fine.
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