is the linux desktop environment still going the direction?

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Pjotr » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:47 pm

mrgoogle wrote:what makes linux mint different from other distros and what is the purpose of the project that separates us from them, that's what we should market
1. It's easy, both to install and to use;
2. it's nearly complete out of the box;
3. it's long term supported (up to five years);
4. it's stable and reliable;
5. it has a huge amount of installable software in the repo's;
6. it even looks pretty decent out of the box;
7. it's a big distro with a huge user base and assured continuity.

Not surprisingly, only Ubuntu comes near. Mint just has it all. It's the best operating system on the face of the earth.

No need for bloody awful re-inventions of the desktop, which just cause a lot of annoyance because suddenly you can't find your applications or something.

A good desktop is an unobtrusive one, which has all the nuts and bolts in the expected places. It doesn't start singing and dancing in your face when you use it. So that you can launch your applications with the least possible amount of fuss, because in the end it's only the applications that really matter. The desktop is only a vehicle.

Mint does all this very well, with all its officially supported desktops. For God's sake let's not change that. :shock:
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by BigEasy » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:52 pm

mrgoogle wrote: didn't u know that EVERYONE AND EVERY DISTROS WAN'TS TO BECOME THE BEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" now what makes linux mint or our DE different from other distros and what is the purpose of the project that separates us from them
I can't understand what is "our" and "us". I'm just "segment of market". Who are you?
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Moem » Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:54 pm

mrgoogle wrote:the reason why all desktop environment projects do not share the same goal is because of this so-called "market segmentation"
True. So which DE and which direction were you talking about? Once we know that, we may be able to answer your question together.
mrgoogle wrote:im not professional enough to lecture you about "market segmentation" however the easiest way i can think of, to give you an idea on where the market industry is heading to, is to listen to tech-news programs and articles as much as you can
No thanks, I don't really care all that much.

I understand the words market and segmentation, so I think I can extrapolate. What I'm unsure about is why that would be a bad thing for Linux. After all, no one is trying to make every user use the same distro and DE. One of the strong points of Linux, and part of its appeal, is its diversity. Which, I suppose, is another word for segmentation.

Why are you referring to the market by the way? Most Linux OSses are free to use. Normal market principles don't really apply here.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:11 pm

M0em wrote: I understand the words market and segmentation, so I think I can extrapolate. What I'm unsure about is why that would be a bad thing for Linux. After all, no one is trying to make every user use the same distro and DE. One of the strong points of Linux, and part of its appeal, is its diversity.
OK, I will jump in here.

My biggest concern when starting to use Linux was which distro to use, not only that, but then to choose a DE... the diversity can be seen as a strength, but i think its also a weakness. There must be a huge duplication of effort and app developers cant be expected to optimise their apps for all the different DEs etc, so does it hurt the app ecosystem?

I was setting a laptop up for multiple people to use, so didnt want to be distro-hopping and changing the DE etc - my family have taken to linux very smoothly, but they also do want some consistency! Xfce was great, easy to use and I found the panel to be easy to customise for the different users. Cinnamon is more polished, it seems to handle USB sticks and DVD disks better than Xfce did - the latter got very confused if multiple users were logged in (the user in the suspended session got the mount prompt, not the active user environment!)

BUT - both DE suffer with screen tearing. Xfce with the default window manager teared when moving windows around. Cinnamon doesnt suffer there, but both stutter/tear when playing video. This is either fullscreeen (VLC or Videos) or in web pages (youtube flash and HTML5). For me, this weakness in Linux is the reason why my MacBook will remain on OSX. Maybe it will improve with Mir/Wayland etc?

Considering how important video is to our facebook/youtube generation of modern users, this is the thing which needs fixing. Screen tearing was fixed by using Compiz under Xfce, but it wasnt stable (occasionally you lost compiz, so all window decoration went and you had to restart it...)

Sorry if this is dragging us off-topic, feel free to ignore me!

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:50 pm

mrgoogle wrote:im not professional enough to lecture you about "market segmentation" however the easiest way i can think of, to give you an idea on where the market industry is heading to, is to listen to tech-news programs and articles as much as you can
No thanks, I don't really care all that much.

I understand the words market and segmentation, so I think I can extrapolate. What I'm unsure about is why that would be a bad thing for Linux. After all, no one is trying to make every user use the same distro and DE. One of the strong points of Linux, and part of its appeal, is its diversity. Which, I suppose, is another word for segmentation.

Why are you referring to the market by the way? Most Linux OSses are free to use. Normal market principles don't really apply here.[/quote]

when i say market, im referring to our target people and how is our distro going to meet his needs of a computer. And i do think the marketing principles does apply here simply because we have to know where the market industry is headed to and and how to quickly respond to it, so many more people would use/adapt to our distro and for that you have to know what people liked and disliked about linux mint and so is with the other operating system
Last edited by mrgoogle on Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:35 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:01 pm

Pjotr wrote:
mrgoogle wrote:what makes linux mint different from other distros and what is the purpose of the project that separates us from them, that's what we should market
1. It's easy, both to install and to use;
2. it's nearly complete out of the box;
3. it's long term supported (up to five years);
4. it's stable and reliable;
5. it has a huge amount of installable software in the repo's;
6. it even looks pretty decent out of the box;
7. it's a big distro with a huge user base and assured continuity.

Not surprisingly, only Ubuntu comes near. Mint just has it all. It's the best operating system on the face of the earth.

No need for bloody awful re-inventions of the desktop, which just cause a lot of annoyance because suddenly you can't find your applications or something.

A good desktop is an unobtrusive one, which has all the nuts and bolts in the expected places. It doesn't start singing and dancing in your face when you use it. So that you can launch your applications with the least possible amount of fuss, because in the end it's only the applications that really matter. The desktop is only a vehicle.

Mint does all this very well, with all its officially supported desktops. For God's sake let's not change that. :shock:
i know your being honest and so am i. NO#1-7 ; i was talking about of what makes linux-mint different and special from other distros and its true if you start selling your product, you can make use of these 7 statements as a marketing lines however they should ONLY stay as a "secondary endorsement lines" for the linux-mint because majority of the distros are using them as well, so your primary marketing lines or endorsement lines for linux-mint should be the things that you think that makes our distro completely unique from the others. And more importantly, its only the marketing experts and the end-users themselves are the only ones who truly knows if its a good product or not because the retailer and the consumer doesn't share the same needs and wants or even the same view of the product. But before we start arguing about this, can you please tell me how is the process management of how you make or design desktop environment>??
Last edited by mrgoogle on Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:48 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:12 pm

chrisonmint wrote:
M0em wrote: I understand the words market and segmentation, so I think I can extrapolate. What I'm unsure about is why that would be a bad thing for Linux. After all, no one is trying to make every user use the same distro and DE. One of the strong points of Linux, and part of its appeal, is its diversity.
OK, I will jump in here.

My biggest concern when starting to use Linux was which distro to use, not only that, but then to choose a DE... the diversity can be seen as a strength, but i think its also a weakness. There must be a huge duplication of effort and app developers cant be expected to optimise their apps for all the different DEs etc, so does it hurt the app ecosystem?

I was setting a laptop up for multiple people to use, so didnt want to be distro-hopping and changing the DE etc - my family have taken to linux very smoothly, but they also do want some consistency! Xfce was great, easy to use and I found the panel to be easy to customise for the different users. Cinnamon is more polished, it seems to handle USB sticks and DVD disks better than Xfce did - the latter got very confused if multiple users were logged in (the user in the suspended session got the mount prompt, not the active user environment!)

BUT - both DE suffer with screen tearing. Xfce with the default window manager teared when moving windows around. Cinnamon doesnt suffer there, but both stutter/tear when playing video. This is either fullscreeen (VLC or Videos) or in web pages (youtube flash and HTML5). For me, this weakness in Linux is the reason why my MacBook will remain on OSX. Maybe it will improve with Mir/Wayland etc?

Considering how important video is to our facebook/youtube generation of modern users, this is the thing which needs fixing. Screen tearing was fixed by using Compiz under Xfce, but it wasnt stable (occasionally you lost compiz, so all window decoration went and you had to restart it...)

Sorry if this is dragging us off-topic, feel free to ignore me!
thank u very much for putting this up, this was one of my main points that they haven't cleared out yet, linux mint might have an endless customization freedom but the real question is; how easy or user-friendly is it to be customize by the people or end-users who isn't well-experience in computers, who just wants their work to get done without the need of technical skills in computer software-stuffs??
Last edited by mrgoogle on Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:29 pm

BigEasy wrote:
mrgoogle wrote: didn't u know that EVERYONE AND EVERY DISTROS WAN'TS TO BECOME THE BEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" now what makes linux mint or our DE different from other distros and what is the purpose of the project that separates us from them
I can't understand what is "our" and "us". I'm just "segment of market". Who are you?
i won't reply to an unintelligent statement

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Fred Barclay » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:39 pm

mrgoogle wrote:
BigEasy wrote:
mrgoogle wrote: didn't u know that EVERYONE AND EVERY DISTROS WAN'TS TO BECOME THE BEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT" now what makes linux mint or our DE different from other distros and what is the purpose of the project that separates us from them
I can't understand what is "our" and "us". I'm just "segment of market". Who are you?
i won't reply to an unintelligent statement
That's unfair. BigEasy is not a native English speaker so of course his grammar isn't perfect (hey, mine isn't and I've spoken English all my life!) but the statement is not unintelligent.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:57 pm

Fred Barclay wrote:
mrgoogle wrote:
BigEasy wrote: I can't understand what is "our" and "us". I'm just "segment of market". Who are you?
i won't reply to an unintelligent statement
That's unfair. BigEasy is not a native English speaker so of course his grammar isn't perfect (hey, mine isn't and I've spoken English all my life!) but the statement is not unintelligent.
look at Pjotr 's recent post about the main advantages of linux-mint and my reply to it. When i say "us" im referring to the linux-mint community and "our" is us the linux-mint community and the projects we make. And i think its still fair to call it unintelligent because he wouldn't have gotten lost if just spend at least 10 minutes of his life researching on what is "market segmentation"

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:13 am

M0em wrote:
mrgoogle wrote:the reason why all desktop environment projects do not share the same goal is because of this so-called "market segmentation"
True. So which DE and which direction were you talking about? Once we know that, we may be able to answer your question together.
mrgoogle wrote:i
your clearly not reading my previous post so please go back to page 1

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Moem » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:25 am

mrgoogle wrote: your clearly not reading my previous post so please go back to page 1
Okay, I'm done here. You may need to answer your own question in the end. I'm sure you'll have no problem there.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by xenopeek » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:48 am

Linux Mint uses Cinnamon, KDE, MATE, and Xfce as default desktop environments. All of these are set up with the "classic desktop paradigm" of a panel at the bottom, a menu button on the left with launcher icons to the right of it, a list of open and minimized windows to the right of that (with window titles showing), and at the far right of the panel a status icon area and clock. A familiar desktop for users migrating from Windows to Linux, which is a big demographic for Linux Mint.

You seem to imply the desktop environment should be a "unique snowflake", unlike anything other Linux distros are using. While unique snowflakes are fine in art, it doesn't make much sense to me for operating systems seeing as a big demographic is users looking for familiarity. Most users are happy enough to find something that looks familiar, so they can use their computer easily to get stuff done—which is what their computer is for.

Pjotr captures pretty well what is important to the majority of Linux Mint users. I think the easy of installing and updating software on Linux Mint (with its Software Manager, Software Sources, and Update Manager programs) is another thing that sets Linux Mint apart. Using a long-term support (LTS) stable base, with frequent updates for key applications (the Mint tools, LibreOffice, etc.), desktop environments used, and hardware enablement (kernel, mesa, etc.) in between LTS releases is another.

Here are some recent reviews that cover what is working for Linux Mint:
http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... op-distro/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/14 ... _3_review/
https://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/s ... mon-review
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3013058/ ... e-yet.html
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/82889.html
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:55 am

M0em wrote:
mrgoogle wrote: your clearly not reading my previous post so please go back to page 1
Okay, I'm done here. You may need to answer your own question in the end. I'm sure you'll have no problem there.
1st of all i can explain, im just worried you won't able to understand especially if you not fond of watching tech news and really not into products reviews and comparisons; before anything else my main point was where is linux-mint really headed to in this industry and until now that is not clear and all the answer im hearing in the community is that linux-mint's goal is to be the best OS and even the best operating system alone doesn't exist, maybe back in the late 1990s, it probably did exist. But in 2015 and ahead, we had really change the way think of technology and how to use them to point that the idea of the "best OS" had became a myth simply because operating systems no longer compete purely on the number of apps it could run and market-share alone, And in the eyes of these tech-giants the market industry is far more segmented and divided than you think(imagine the basic home-users and school industry is divide into so many segmented market industries and sub-market industries based on the factors that affects their needs and wants of a computer) and as time passes the market segmentation becomes more and more complex at least that's what the people told me that claims to be an employee of those companies, now this is where the so-called "targeted marketing vs mass marketing" comes into play, if you think your product can capture multiple market industries at the same time then that is mass marketing and a perfect example of this is the windows-OS of microsoft, and based on the commentaries of so many experts, Apple is the best when it comes to targeted marketing, the ios(phone and tablet), osx, itunes and ect. Now going back to linux-mint i believe that apple's strategy is the best one to be used in adapting and responding to this fast changing market industry, we have to be very specific on our target market and make our target people understand the concept and purpose of our products. This is an example of market segmentation from apple on the late 1991 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNfRgSlhIW0 and remember so much have already change in the modern day technology. Therefore windows is not the best or better than MAC nor Mac is the best or better than windows due to their different target markets
Last edited by mrgoogle on Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:16 am

xenopeek wrote:Linux Mint uses Cinnamon, KDE, MATE, and Xfce as default desktop environments. All of these are set up with the "classic desktop paradigm" of a panel at the bottom, a menu button on the left with launcher icons to the right of it, a list of open and minimized windows to the right of that (with window titles showing), and at the far right of the panel a status icon area and clock. A familiar desktop for users migrating from Windows to Linux, which is a big demographic for Linux Mint.

You seem to imply the desktop environment should be a "unique snowflake", unlike anything other Linux distros are using. While unique snowflakes are fine in art, it doesn't make much sense to me for operating systems seeing as a big demographic is users looking for familiarity. Most users are happy enough to find something that looks familiar, so they can use their computer easily to get stuff done—which is what their computer is for.

Pjotr captures pretty well what is important to the majority of Linux Mint users. I think the easy of installing and updating software on Linux Mint (with its Software Manager, Software Sources, and Update Manager programs) is another thing that sets Linux Mint apart. Using a long-term support (LTS) stable base, with frequent updates for key applications (the Mint tools, LibreOffice, etc.), desktop environments used, and hardware enablement (kernel, mesa, etc.) in between LTS releases is another.

Here are some recent reviews that cover what is working for Linux Mint:
http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... op-distro/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/14 ... _3_review/
https://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/s ... mon-review
http://www.pcworld.com/article/3013058/ ... e-yet.html
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/82889.html
your missing one of my main points that i have repeated so many times already, in marketing you have to know what is the other operating systems' competitive advantage as well as your own, what did the people liked and disliked about their products and in your product, and you can't do that by just watching/reading reviews that complements your product. Please don't just think inside the box, also think outside the box; that's one of the major factors that's killing the innovative spirit within the linux community. If we argue about this, then it'll be a learning experience for the both of us. You cannot defend your product against criticism with the support from the Media alone.
Last edited by mrgoogle on Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:38 am

xenopeek wrote:Linux Mint uses Cinnamon, KDE, MATE, and Xfce as default desktop environments. All of these are set up with the "classic desktop paradigm" of a panel at the bottom, a menu button on the left with launcher icons to the right of it, a list of open and minimized windows to the right of that (with window titles showing), and at the far right of the panel a status icon area and clock. A familiar desktop for users migrating from Windows to Linux, which is a big demographic for Linux Mint.
ml
we already have the ZORIN-OS and chalet os for that and nothing beats zorin on that area, don't you get bored of seeing the same thing again and again until to the succeeding years to come

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by BigEasy » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:01 am

mrgoogle wrote:we already have the ZORIN-OS and chalet os for that and nothing beats zorin on that area
Sinething beats (I don't know what). Look: http://distrowatch.com/ who is at top.
Sorry, I'm just segment of market and nothing beats me on Mint, but who is you is unknown, yet. Have you some market ideas for Mint? Please, write, talk.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:14 am

BigEasy wrote:
mrgoogle wrote:we already have the ZORIN-OS and chalet os for that and nothing beats zorin on that area
Sinething beats (I don't know what). Look: http://distrowatch.com/ who is at top.
Sorry, I'm just segment of market and nothing beats me on Mint, but who is you is unknown, yet. Have you some market ideas for Mint? Please, write, talk.
you really have done no research at all. do you even know what i mean when i said "on that areA" ?? im not an contemptible person but this level of ignorance is starting to irritate me
Last edited by xenopeek on Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: swear words removed

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by xenopeek » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:41 am

Back off with the personal insults and mind your language mrgoogle (read the forum rules). Use a civil tone and assume good faith in conversation.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:47 am

xenopeek wrote:Back off with the personal insults and mind your language mrgoogle (read the forum rules). Use a civil tone and assume good faith in conversation.
ok , ok. can we please continue? please defend your claims

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