is the linux desktop environment still going the direction?

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mrgoogle
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:11 am

xenopeek wrote:Back off with the personal insults and mind your language mrgoogle (read the forum rules). Use a civil tone and assume good faith in conversation.
and i also assume that you also believe in this MYTH: the reason why most linux projects fails like "enlightenment" is because of the user's unfamiliarity with the desktop environment of linux distros and they can't get use to any other UI other than windows are a complete myth again. Its actually in the process management and how the UI and UX are being design which causes it to fail when its no longer following that panel-style of windows' UI.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:45 am

mrgoogle wrote:in marketing you have to know what is the other operating systems' competitive advantage as well as your own, what did the people liked and disliked about their products and in your product, and you can't do that by just watching/reading reviews that complements your product. Please don't just think inside the box, also think outside the box; that's one of the major factors that's killing the innovative spirit within the linux community. If we argue about this, then it'll be a learning experience for the both of us. You cannot defend your product against criticism with the support from the Media alone.
Those reviews are by independent third parties, so the LM-team can take them as encouragement that what Linux Mint offers is being well received. Its not like they are writing the reviews themselves (which can happen in big companies, middle management and marketing slapping themselves on the back for a job well done, because they perform well in the metrics they chose themselves... ignoring the success of competitors)

The way I feel about desktop/laptop computers is that they are now seen as an appliance, almost like a commodity item. A fridge is plugged in, does its job until it breaks and is then replaced by a new fridge. What colour it is, whether it has an inbuilt ice-maker etc, is down to personal choice.

A computer OS these days needs to get out of the way so someone can sit down, get online and surf (facebook, sharing photos, reading web news etc). They need to be able to manipulate files (word/excel or image/video editing etc).

As long as a desktop environment allows someone to grab the mouse and get going, then I see it a success. A few guests used my linux laptop over the holiday period. I thought they would ask about what the OS was, but no - they moved the mouse and clicked on Firefox (in Docky) and off they went. I kept my mouth shut and watched them, they didnt notice (or care) that it wasnt Mac OSX or Windows.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:57 am

Pjotr wrote: 1. It's easy, both to install and to use;
2. it's nearly complete out of the box;
3. it's long term supported (up to five years);
4. it's stable and reliable;
5. it has a huge amount of installable software in the repo's;
6. it even looks pretty decent out of the box;
7. it's a big distro with a huge user base and assured continuity.
+1 to all of the above. I think this is why Mint is #1 on distrowatch.
Pjotr wrote: No need for bloody awful re-inventions of the desktop, which just cause a lot of annoyance because suddenly you can't find your applications or something.
+1 to this too. The reason a market segment opened up for Linux Mint is, IMHO, as much down to the mis-steps of Ubuntu as it is the strengths of LM. Ubuntu making their own DE, changing how it works etc, messing with the location of the app menus etc is all unnecessary and leads to end-user confusion.

Gnome looks nice and I find it fun to use, but again it has suffered years of the devs making changes to the "traditional" (ie windows-like) interface. Hiding functionality behind swipes, charms, hot corners etc is great for power users, but drives the normal user away. See also the backlash against the Windows8 start screen replacing the start menu, the full-screen apps. I have Windows8 on my work machine and it took a decent amount of effort to make it run like Windows7 (ie in desktop mode, not Metro-mode).

KDE shook things up with version 4 (was it?) and again there was huge resistance and they lost market share because of it. Dont get me wrong, now KDE5 and the latest versions of Gnome are both really amazing DE's and their fans get huge benefit from using them. BUT, in the process of change, many people have been driven into the arms of Xfce, MATE and others (and Cinnamon for Mint).

I wish that there were LESS desktop environments to choose from in Linux. Great, lets have lots of choice, but all this fragmentation is just crazy. Even 4 DE to choose from in Linux Mint could be considered too many. Pile all efforts into making Cinnamon slick, fast and functional. As older machines which *need* the MATE or Xfce due to lack of RAM disappear, maybe we can end up with a single (or dual, with KDE) environment?

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:17 am

chrisonmint wrote:[

Those reviews are by independent third parties, so the LM-team can take them as encouragement that what Linux Mint offers is being well received. Its not like they are writing the reviews themselves (which can happen in big companies, middle management and marketing slapping themselves on the back for a job well done, because they perform well in the metrics they chose themselves... ignoring the success of competitors)

The way I feel about desktop/laptop computers is that they are now seen as an appliance, almost like a commodity item. A fridge is plugged in, does its job until it breaks and is then replaced by a new fridge. What colour it is, whether it has an inbuilt ice-maker etc, is down to personal choice.

A computer OS these days needs to get out of the way so someone can sit down, get online and surf (facebook, sharing photos, reading web news etc). They need to be able to manipulate files (word/excel or image/video editing etc).

As long as a desktop environment allows someone to grab the mouse and get going, then I see it a success. A few guests used my linux laptop over the holiday period. I thought they would ask about what the OS was, but no - they moved the mouse and clicked on Firefox (in Docky) and off they went. I kept my mouth shut and watched them, they didnt notice (or care) that it wasnt Mac OSX or Windows.
actually that's true but listening to these product reviews and comparisons is still worth it, for it helps you get the right product for your needs. But i really hate it when the companies says "its a success as long as its working" bcoz that's just an ignorance on the customer-satisfaction point of view. And i understand where this is coming from at the very least the programmers in our school considers themselves very successful regardless of how horrible the interface as long as its working. you know its not my style to tell to the public about things those employees from companies entrust me with; but i'll make an exception for you, so you'll know why customer satisfaction and making everything "so easy use for our end-user is important". Given the story you said above my perfect example to that would be microsoft's decision on ignoring the smartphone industry until it painfully backfired at them because they never realize its possibilities and potential in the industry which became really obvious when android came out. Microsoft's original plan was to invade the server industry using their proprietary software which linux ruined that for them and to invade the internet service industry which was prevented by google due to the fact that the desktop industry is slowing shrinking for them because of new players that came into play and according to this source to make-up for these loses and to stay competitive in the industry they must become number one in the smartphone and gaming industry which has 50/50 chances of success. And the real reason why windows-phone have a horrible UI and not selling well in the market is because it is being mismanage and process management of the phones' software is really horrible as well and doesn't have a clear target market and objective as well.
Last edited by mrgoogle on Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:27 am

mrgoogle wrote: "its a success as long as its working" bcoz that's just an ignorance on the customer-satisfaction point of view.
True, but our interface is not ugly and for most people its working well. Lazy programmers can tell their end users to just work around crappy interfaces, I agree with you there, but i dont think it applies here.
mrgoogle wrote: microsoft's decision on ignoring the smartphone industry until it painfully backfired at them because they never realize its possibilities and potential in the industry which became really obvious when android came out.
Agreed, that really hurt Microsoft. But on the other side, trying to answer this need is what has caused so much damage to KDE, Gnome and Ubuntu/Unity. No-one uses normal Linux DE's on tablets or phones, the successful answer to the new devices was to make a DE specifically for it (ie Android). Maybe this will change in the near future, with a high-power phone in your pocket which can plug into a HD display with keyboard and mouse, but I am not convinced this approach will be successful.

When you try to have one device doing many things, you risk it doing them all badly (or at least not optimally). Now, I'm not saying that i want to have separate devices in my pockets to make phone calls, to send texts, to take photos, to surf the web, to play games, to watch videos. Its obvious that many of those uses can come from the same device, but not all optimally. eg: I have a *proper* camera for photos. I have dedicated iPods for all my music (one lives in the car, the other is stuck to my office wall). Ok, so i dont have them all in my pocket all the time, but my camera takes photos that are impossible to do on phones and my iPods are simple solutions to having all my music on one device.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:31 am

chrisonmint wrote:
mrgoogle wrote:
Those reviews are by independent third parties, so the LM-team can take them as encouragement that what Linux Mint offers is being well received. Its not like they are writing the reviews themselves (which can happen in big companies, middle management and marketing slapping themselves on the back for a job well done, because they perform well in the metrics they chose themselves... ignoring the success of competitors)

The way I feel about desktop/laptop computers is that they are now seen as an appliance, almost like a commodity item. A fridge is plugged in, does its job until it breaks and is then replaced by a new fridge. What colour it is, whether it has an inbuilt ice-maker etc, is down to personal choice.

A computer OS these days needs to get out of the way so someone can sit down, get online and surf (facebook, sharing photos, reading web news etc). They need to be able to manipulate files (word/excel or image/video editing etc).

As long as a desktop environment allows someone to grab the mouse and get going, then I see it a success. A few guests used my linux laptop over the holiday period. I thought they would ask about what the OS was, but no - they moved the mouse and clicked on Firefox (in Docky) and off they went. I kept my mouth shut and watched them, they didnt notice (or care) that it wasnt Mac OSX or Windows.
you see the process management in google goes this way; anything you u put or remove in the design of the UI, it must blend well w/ the UX and that's what makes the UI very fluid and easy to use; which means combining the UI and UX into one will only increase the chances of Failure, its the engineers/developers that does the designing of the UI while the UX is designed by the gadget-lover geeks and since the UI must blend well with UX or the UX must blend well w/ the UI,; the UX team must be very involve and interactive w/ the UI team. This means that the UX-team must be involve in every step of the way to make the UI very fluid and consistent as much as possible. Now a days it became a standard that the UX-designers must be an expert in using UX-designing tools and softwares for it makes the development much faster and efficient which is not a good idea in my own opinion simply because you don't need to be an expert in using these tools to deliver your ideas to the developers just like i did in the page1(on the images/photos). The right UX-designers to be hired are ones who truly loves using their computers because according to my source; joe belfiore, the guy managing the windows-phone product lines is not really a fan of smartphones, he's a very skilled engineer but not a smartphone fan, and you just can't make great products if you don't love it yourself
Last edited by mrgoogle on Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:50 am

chrisonmint wrote:
mrgoogle wrote: "its a success as long as its working" bcoz that's just an ignorance on the customer-satisfaction point of view.
True, but our interface is not ugly and for most people its working well. Lazy programmers can tell their end users to just work around crappy interfaces, I agree with you there, but i dont think it applies here.
.
true but we're not meeting the current standards of a user-friendly interface and we will always stay as the OS with the smallest market share in this industry

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by daveinuk » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:54 am

is the linux desktop environment still going the direction


I'm bemused by this thread, if the question (which is hard to determine) is, is Mint going in the right direction? well, that's subjective, each to their own.

The replies are all over the place, personally I can't read 'lumps' of text, it makes it hard work. 'Mint' is not a company, so 'marketing' doesn't come into it in my opinion.

It's easy to use, lots of novices attest to that, it does what it does very well, so much so that it does it with the donations and support of a loyal fan base, who don't care too much
for competitions and bashing people or one-upmanship, we're past that, we just get along. If there is some DE or feature you dislike, you simply use something else.

The beauty of open source is choice, that's a strength, not a weakness IMO, and you are as always, welcome to 'make your own' and show 'em where they're 'going wrong'.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Fred Barclay » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:05 am

mrgoogle wrote: true but we're not meeting the current standards of a user-friendly interface and we will always stay as the OS with the smallest market share in this industry
Explain, please! What are these current standards? How do you know they're not being met? Surveys? Research? Or just personal preference? ;)
I personally find all four of Mint's desktops (even Xfce and KDE, which to be honest I don't like their default config in Mint) to be far superior to any Windows in appearance.

BTW: what industry are you referring to?
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:18 am

daveinuk wrote:
is the linux desktop environment still going the direction


I'm bemused by this thread, if the question (which is hard to determine) is, is Mint going in the right direction? well, that's subjective, each to their own.

The replies are all over the place, personally I can't read 'lumps' of text, it makes it hard work. 'Mint' is not a company, so 'marketing' doesn't come into it in my opinion.

It's easy to use, lots of novices attest to that, it does what it does very well, so much so that it does it with the donations and support of a loyal fan base, who don't care too much
for competitions and bashing people or one-upmanship, we're past that, we just get along. If there is some DE or feature you dislike, you simply use something else.

The beauty of open source is choice, that's a strength, not a weakness IMO, and you are as always, welcome to 'make your own' and show 'em where they're 'going wrong'.
thanks for bothering by, but i'll ask you to read the previous posts and im sure they won't bore you

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by mrgoogle » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:19 am

Fred Barclay wrote:
mrgoogle wrote: true but we're not meeting the current standards of a user-friendly interface and we will always stay as the OS with the smallest market share in this industry
Explain, please! What are these current standards? How do you know they're not being met? Surveys? Research? Or just personal preference? ;)
I personally find all four of Mint's desktops (even Xfce and KDE, which to be honest I don't like their default config in Mint) to be far superior to any Windows in appearance.

BTW: what industry are you referring to?
i think i would ask you first to read the previous post so you'll know

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Flemur » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:06 pm

BigEasy
So. there is only one acceptable direction of DE: one big button at center of the screen with text: "make all my work perfectly". Color of background may be user defined.
What color is the button? If I right-click on it, does it have a "Do what I want, not what I said" function?

But someone beat you to that One Big Button idea:
"Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard"
The MacBook Wheel lets consumers accomplish everyday tasks like typing with just a few dozen spins and clicks of a wheel.
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
Your data and OS are backed up....right?

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Moem » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:15 pm

Mr. Google, you seem to like asking questions, but you're not too fond of answering them, are you? That's funny, most people expect answers from Google, not questions. :wink:
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:19 pm

mrgoogle wrote: thanks for bothering by, but i'll ask you to read the previous posts and im sure they won't bore you
you could have been less rude here.

I would also ask you to parse your posts into sentences and paragraphs. posting as a big block is very hard to read.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by chrisonmint » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:25 pm

daveinuk wrote: I'm bemused by this thread, if the question (which is hard to determine) is, is Mint going in the right direction? well, that's subjective, each to their own.
Mint is number 1 on Distrowatch and has been for years. I think that within the Linux market, being number 1 is a great achievement. It shows Cinnamon and MATE is doing it "right" - people vote with their feet, after all.
daveinuk wrote: It's easy to use, lots of novices attest to that, it does what it does very well, so much so that it does it with the donations and support of a loyal fan base
+1

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by Fred Barclay » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm

mrgoogle wrote: i think i would ask you first to read the previous post so you'll know
Still not answering the questions, I see. :mrgreen: I just reread the entire thread, and beside from your saying XYZ does not work for "most people" due to "lazy programmers" you haven't provided any real info.

I'm sorry to say this, but it sounds as if you don't like any of the Mint DEs (or UIs as you call them) and so you want the entire Mint team to work around your personal preference. Not a very constructive position, IMHO.

And I agree with the others: you could be a little less rude. ;) No need to question the intelligence of the members here simply because we don't agree with you. Dividing your posts into separate paragraphs would help too.
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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by deleted » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:16 pm

We started using Linux Mint exclusively at home on my laptop and the kids' desktop 8 years ago.
All the kids were below the age of 10. I hardly ever "admin" their desktop and they've never had to ask me how to do something, yet they do _all_ their [public] school work and homework on it.
It seems to point to "works as designed". I cannot imagine more simple to admin and worry free (not to mention intuitive)
-Hinto

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by daveinuk » Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:56 pm

mrgoogle wrote:
daveinuk wrote:
is the linux desktop environment still going the direction


I'm bemused by this thread, if the question (which is hard to determine) is, is Mint going in the right direction? well, that's subjective, each to their own.

The replies are all over the place, personally I can't read 'lumps' of text, it makes it hard work. 'Mint' is not a company, so 'marketing' doesn't come into it in my opinion.

It's easy to use, lots of novices attest to that, it does what it does very well, so much so that it does it with the donations and support of a loyal fan base, who don't care too much
for competitions and bashing people or one-upmanship, we're past that, we just get along. If there is some DE or feature you dislike, you simply use something else.

The beauty of open source is choice, that's a strength, not a weakness IMO, and you are as always, welcome to 'make your own' and show 'em where they're 'going wrong'.
thanks for bothering by, but i'll ask you to read the previous posts and im sure they won't bore you
If your argument was clear, and to the point, and structured so as to make it readable, I'd pay attention.

As I see it this is just another rattle out of the pram post with no substance 'cos there's 'something', undetermined, you don't like, so make your own?
I'm more than happy with MInt's direction in all it's DE's, so much so that I've donated several times, there's something for everybody there, well, nearly.
So you see, the argument is pointless, as ' the right direction ' is subject to individual taste, and to me, it tastes great.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by MintBean » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:15 pm

Agree, Dave. There are a lot of words but no content in MrGoogle's posts.

Troll or unintentional timewaster I don't know.

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Re: is the linux desktop environment still going the directi

Post by xenopeek » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:35 pm

MintBean wrote:There are a lot of words but no content in MrGoogle's posts.
That's not fair. mrgoogle shared his vision for how the file manager, task switcher, and desktop could look and behave: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 4#p1117360

Let's stay away from name calling.
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