Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

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xenopeek
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by xenopeek » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:11 pm

Updated the first post in this topic to reflect new information from https://plus.google.com/+MarkShuttlewor ... LYubpaHUHH about Mir:
[...] we have lots of IoT projects using Mir as a compositor so that code continues to receive investment. [...]
What if anything this means for Ubuntu desktop and whether it will use Wayland or Mir in the future is right now only speculation.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by mike acker » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:20 pm

Portreve wrote:
mike acker wrote:all of which leads us to ponder: Whither Canonical? and if Canonical heads for greener pastures how does this impact Mint? to my thinking: I like the LMDE version anyway.
Y'know, Mike, you took the words right out of my mouth. I was reading this thread's progress after my last post and was struck by the same thought, and I was planning to write a response when I saw this by you. Are you reading my mind again, sir? :lol:
thanks pard :D

it was, and remains my view that discussing the future of the LMDE edition is relevant and important to this thread. I think this is underscored by the note from Clem posted by Cosmo a couple postings back:
At the moment Ubuntu is the best alternative for us. If that changes we’ll consider not using it, until then we’ve no plans to change anything.
this brings me back to my earlier note, ( which I didn't write very well ) to the effect that I hope LMDE/3 will incorporate kernel 4.10 or better. the reason being, that, should we determine to supercede the Canonical based system with LMDE we will need to support the new AMD/RYZEN chips. it is my understanding we need the scheduler in kernel 4.10 to do this properly

I see these things as interrelated and that is what I did not bring out properly when I wrote earlier. Hopefully the correspondents will forgive me.

I'm an LMDE fan. I can't quite put my finger on why -- I just seem to have less trouble with it.

I do have a MINT 18.3 Cinamon as well as a current copy of the KDE version running on the Research box.

anyway, I hope this post is a little better than my earlier one.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Fred Barclay » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:57 pm

mike acker wrote: this brings me back to my earlier note, ( which I didn't write very well ) to the effect that I hope LMDE/3 will incorporate kernel 4.10 or better. the reason being, that, should we determine to supercede the Canonical based system with LMDE we will need to support the new AMD/RYZEN chips. it is my understanding we need the scheduler in kernel 4.10 to do this properly
At the moment the kernel in Debian Stretch is 4.9: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/linux-image-amd64. Since that's also the latest kernel in Sid I'm not at all sure kernel 4.10 will make it into Stretch before it reaches stable. Especially now that Stretch has been frozen since 05 February: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a ... 00001.html

And if Stretch ships with 4.9, LMDE 3 will probably do the same.
(Of course, this is just speculation on my part based on past experiences.)

Good news, though, 4.10 would probably be added to the backports pretty quickly. So as long as a RYZEN computer can boot LMDE 3 with enough functionality to have an internet connection, you ought to be able to add 4.10.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by xenopeek » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:03 pm

Debian 9 will be shipped with kernel version 4.9. See the decision on https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStretch#B ... he_release. Down the road a newer kernel will likely be available from Stretch backports. It is unlikely LMDE 3 will preempt Debian kernel maintainers' work.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by amethyst_igor » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:37 pm

xenopeek wrote:Updated the first post in this topic to reflect new information from https://plus.google.com/+MarkShuttlewor ... LYubpaHUHH about Mir:
[...] we have lots of IoT projects using Mir as a compositor so that code continues to receive investment. [...]
What if anything this means for Ubuntu desktop and whether it will use Wayland or Mir in the future is right now only speculation.
I read about this on the Reg, and it brought a smile to my face. Investors sought clear money flow for each project, and Unity was nothing but cost. It received a lot of criticism for a desktop, and chewed through a lot of dev resources that could have been used elsewhere. I think it is safe to assume Mir is dead also, which along with Unity's demise, is good for Linux. The gnome and kde monoliths are enough to deal with, and why not wayland? So, bring on the woulda-coulda-shoulda's, as to where Ubuntu would be right now if it hadn't squandered so much on high falutin projects, but really it's water under the bridge.
I run both Windows 10 and Linux Mint 18 in dual boot with two SSDs and have other rigs running various versions of Linux. My blog.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:14 pm

Long time no see! :oops: :D :oops:

The topic issue made me want to post again.....

I think, adding up news over the past year or two, that Mark Shuttleworth is going to sell off the whole thing. Maybe canonical will keep existing as a branch of the buyer.
I think Microsoft will be the buyer.

I could be dead wrong, and actually hope i am wrong, but the writing is IMO on the wall.

So why do i think this:

Well, it has to do with the fact that Windows 10 offers the use (partial) of ubuntu within Windows 10.
With this move Microsoft windows 10 gained access to the ubuntu archives for updates and installing a wide range of tooling from these archives.
Essentially, Windows 10 uses the ubuntu repositories when this functionality is used.

An other thing is, Microsoft is actually making a turn towards Linux, by for example becoming one of the largest investors in the linux foundation. To me this says that Microsoft is setting itself up strategically for the future. What i mean by that is: The desktop market is shrinking, and in server space there is mostly Linux to be found, so the question becomes: If you where Microsoft, a stock market listed commercial entity, and you observe these changes in the market you operate in...........what would you do?

I for one would most certainly look into buying a linux based company and woould prefer the one with the best possible infrastructure and ecosystem. (Edit: And affordable.........)

And now we see this news and job cuts being made to bring canonical/ubuntu "in-line" to be enticing towards outside investors.

I really hope i am wrong, though i think i made the right decision a while ago to only use Debian itself or LMDE on any of my PC's.
Even more than ever, i am hoping that Linux Mint will start changing the base, or at least prepare the exit towards debian. (that and a Gnome edition maybe? please please....probably not)

Anyways, hi to all again after so long and ya......hope i am wrong about this......

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by MintyO » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:30 pm

Jennifer W wrote:.........

I think, adding up news over the past year or two, that Mark Shuttleworth is going to sell off the whole thing. Maybe canonical will keep existing as a branch of the buyer.
I think Microsoft will be the buyer.

..........
This is something that has crossed my mind too. But if those future resources will be available for Mint to draw from, it might be a good thing. With Mint's mission statement and the path followed so far, I see the clear #1 free linux OS (or even an ecosystem of platforms) for the masses. Kind of like what Ubuntu used to be before it went all sorts of weird.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Fred Barclay » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:44 pm

Jennifer W wrote:Long time no see! :oops: :D :oops:
Indeed - welcome back! :D
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:16 pm

MintyO
This is something that has crossed my mind too. But if those future resources will be available for Mint to draw from, it might be a good thing. With Mint's mission statement and the path followed so far, I see the clear #1 free linux OS (or even an ecosystem of platforms) for the masses. Kind of like what Ubuntu used to be before it went all sorts of weird.
Ya i see what you mean, but would you really want to use repositories that are then owned by Microsoft for your Ubuntu based Mint install?

Fred Barclay
Indeed - welcome back! :D
:D Awesome, thank you for making me feel welcome again!

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by DeMus » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:28 pm

My opinion, which is always different than all other opinions here on the forum, is that Mint should really make haste building LMDE to the next level. Based on the rock solid Debian, with the Mint extras which make Mint Mint, it will be a guaranteed success.
Drop the main version and only concentrate on LMDE, giving it the 4 DE's: KDE, Cinnamon, Mate and XFCE. Since there will be only one Mint, developers can concentrate on that one, giving them more time to develop new things and iron out the bugs to release a distro which carries the name Mint with pride.
I have thought so since LMDE started, I never gave much for Ubuntu and never will so I couldn't really understand why Mint bases its main distro on a crippled distro of which the basis is rock solid.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by MintyO » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:56 pm

Jennifer W wrote:............

Ya i see what you mean, but would you really want to use repositories that are then owned by Microsoft for your Ubuntu based Mint install?
.........
Having carrots from a rich farmer with lot of experience growing carrots is better than having them from a farmer that's Canonical ( :mrgreen: sorry I couldn't think of a substitute word here) if in both cases the carrots are organic and all in all good.

I don't consider Microsoft as a bad company (as compared in company-scale: charities - evil world dominators) and they have made good operating systems and software. Granted, current direction is crazy but they seem to be producing crazy on a very competent phase.

Like I said on my first post though, I wouldn't mind going directly to the source (Debian).

Edit: I was thinking of a post I made to another topic, so only the latter part of my last sentence is correct.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by KBD47 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:34 pm

Yeah, if Shuttleworth sells to Microsoft I'm going 100% Debian all the way. I do not trust MS. Every time they appeared to be acting friendly toward Linux in the past they would turn around and burn Linux. Besides, MS doesn't have a great track record, everything they touch seems to turn to crap. I do think they would love to own Ubuntu, what they can't kill they would be happy to buy IMO.
I have seen comments elsewhere suggesting Ubuntu is done with desktop Linux. I would say they left desktop Linux back when they started chasing mobile and focusing on Unity 8. The great thing about that is desktop Ubuntu has never been so stable as in the past few years, they weren't constantly messing with it and messing it up. :lol:

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:27 pm

MintyO wrote: I don't consider Microsoft as a bad company (as compared in company-scale: charities - evil world dominators) and they have made good operating systems and software. Granted, current direction is crazy but they seem to be producing crazy on a very competent phase.
Well, i respect your opinion so please keep that in mind when reading any further :D
(I am just giving you my reasons for not wanting to use anything from Microsoft anymore, which of course does not invalidate your opinion :D )

About 3 years ago i was thinking in rather similar terms about Microsoft. At that time i had worked in IT for little over 20 years using primarily AS/OS 400 (yes i am that young), RS6000's, XEN, VMWare and linux based servers (mostly LAMP with redhat). But at home i would fire up Windows as this was preferred on a personal computer which acted as a all round PC.

To be sure, XP SP1 and Windows 7 was where it was at for all round computer usage in my opinion, but that has changed. Sure, i was using Linux professionally for the longest time and would regularly check the more "desktoppy" linux versions te see if it was usable for an all round PC. About 3 years ago the more "desktoppy" linux became, for me, the all round desktop i was hoping for, for a long time.

Not completely unrelated, about 2 years ago, i made the switch entirely to Linux Mint (DE) and Debian Jessie, right around the time the Windows 10 crazy came about. (to use your words) Yet i find rather misleading to call it "crazy", it kind of translates to "innocent". Also, when i am saying i do not trust Microsoft anymore , it does not automatically mean that i think in terms of "evil-world domination" terms. I do however think in holding on to "monopoly" terms or better yet in, trying to keep the shares worth what they are now.

Next to that, there is definitely, in my mind, malicious behaviour in Windows 10 when it is running and there was/is malicious behaviour in the way Windows 10 was and is pushed. In fact it behaves much like a virus and your pc will no longer be under your control. There is nothing personal anymore about the PC when running Windows 10. Every thing you do, keystrokes are monitored. Every file on a Windows 10 system, yes also the files that where created by you, the owner, are not private anymore.

Now people will often point out that privacy is a thing of the past since internet became what it is today, but there is a HUGE difference between opening a browser knowing full well that your browsing is not private and an OS that just sends everything with or without your consent from the OS level and up.In the first example i do have control over what i do send on out to the internet via the browser and what i keep private(in a folder on MY PC). The latter erases the option entirely.....
Windows 10 is changing that, you do not need to open a browser to "leak" info, your privacy is being compromised at the OS level. Backports of W10 features make sure that Win7 and 8 suffer mostly from the same W10 virus.

Now, a company who does this, compromising your privacy at the OS level, is a bit more than just crazy, at least in my mind. I might have nothing to hide, and maybe i do for good reasons (think medical, law related things etc., or even just your personal photo album). In any way., it is and should be my decision to make what stays private and what does not. With windows 10 you do not have that choice.

And than i am not even talking about the setting resets that make all your privacy setting reset to the default of...."please take everything i created on this PC", or the way updates are handled or what this means for my lawyer or doctor when they use Windows 10. Or the fact that your PC with W10 will always be listening (for command i know, but still.....would you trust a company that acts this shady?)

Yes i would call it shady.........crazy, to me, is a kind depiction that makes it less shady, almost innocent. It is a bit like walking along somewhere (shopping mall for example) and you notice this man with black coat and hat following you around and making notes....

So in my mind i would say......both farmers are really experienced........but i do not think they are growing organic carrots......

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Portreve » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:32 pm

Jennifer W wrote:Long time no see! :oops: :D :oops:

The topic issue made me want to post again.....
Not sure if we've ever crossed paths on here before, but... glad you are here, and yeah, I think you picked the right topic to re-enter with.
I think, adding up news over the past year or two, that Mark Shuttleworth is going to sell off the whole thing. Maybe canonical will keep existing as a branch of the buyer.
I think Microsoft will be the buyer.
I haven't actually dug too deep on this issue, but I suppose anything is possible. The other points you made are as good of an argument towards that possibility as any I can think of.
An other thing is, Microsoft is actually making a turn towards Linux, by for example becoming one of the largest investors in the linux foundation. To me this says that Microsoft is setting itself up strategically for the future. What i mean by that is: The desktop market is shrinking, and in server space there is mostly Linux to be found, so the question becomes: If you where Microsoft, a stock market listed commercial entity, and you observe these changes in the market you operate in...........what would you do?
To quote J.R. Ewing: keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
I really hope i am wrong, though i think i made the right decision a while ago to only use Debian itself or LMDE on any of my PC's.
I really like LM; however, I did briefly have Debian installed with the Cinnamon desktop, and it was noticeably snappier. The downside is certain bits of hardware support become much more difficult, and in some cases absolutely impossible (unless you have the knowledge to do some heavy modification to your distro) and so LM is pretty much the obvious choice for me.
MintyO wrote:Having carrots from a rich farmer with lot of experience growing carrots is better than having them from a farmer that's Canonical ( :mrgreen: sorry I couldn't think of a substitute word here) if in both cases the carrots are organic and all in all good.

I don't consider Microsoft as a bad company (as compared in company-scale: charities - evil world dominators) and they have made good operating systems and software. Granted, current direction is crazy but they seem to be producing crazy on a very competent phase.
I don't trust Microsoft, and I never have. While I admit to having fond memories of Word 5.1a for Mac OS, and Excel of that same era, I otherwise have utterly no use for that company, and would see them excoriated, ruined, and utterly destroyed. We need competition of ideas, but they poison the well, and so I will not abide them in my life, period.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:33 pm

KBD47 wrote:The great thing about that is desktop Ubuntu has never been so stable as in the past few years, they weren't constantly messing with it and messing it up. :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by xenopeek » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:54 pm

Well, this topic is going in all directions. That some prefer LMDE or distrust Microsoft aren't really relevant to the topic. Let's try and stay on topic please.

The facts, before speculation runs rampant:
  • Linux Mint 18.2 is in development and is based on Ubuntu 16.04. It's shaping up very nicely. Lots of nice improvements on the horizon! One of the things that makes Linux Mint 18.x great is that Ubuntu 16.04 is great. Both are supported—there's no change in that—till April 2019.
  • Linux Mint 18.3 would be expected around end of this year and would also be based on Ubuntu 16.04.
  • As for the more distant future, Linux Mint 19 would be expected around mid next year and would be based instead on Ubuntu 18.04.
  • Ending investment in Unity8, phone and convergence and moving to Gnome Shell with Ubuntu 18.04 have no real impact on these Linux Mint releases that I can see. Linux Mint didn't use Unity8, phone, convergence or Gnome Shell so whether those areas receive less or more attention from Canonical isn't really a factor in Linux Mint deciding on its package bases.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:56 pm

Portreve wrote: Not sure if we've ever crossed paths on here before, but... glad you are here, and yeah, I think you picked the right topic to re-enter with.
Not sure either but thank you! and nice meeting you!
Portreve wrote: I really like LM; however, I did briefly have Debian installed with the Cinnamon desktop, and it was noticeably snappier. The downside is certain bits of hardware support become much more difficult, and in some cases absolutely impossible (unless you have the knowledge to do some heavy modification to your distro) and so LM is pretty much the obvious choice for me.
I fell in love with LMDE 2, love Debian (actually open source (GPL2)) but use LMDE2 and Debian.
Portreve wrote: I don't trust Microsoft, and I never have. While I admit to having fond memories of Word 5.1a for Mac OS, and Excel of that same era, I otherwise have utterly no use for that company, and would see them excoriated, ruined, and utterly destroyed. We need competition of ideas, but they poison the well, and so I will not abide them in my life, period.
Ya these days i also think that Microsoft actually holds humanity back in growth, technically and morally.......

Anyways, Xenopeek is right....it is starting to go off topic.....kind of....

Well i guess what i am trying to ask is what all this will mean for Linux Mint?
Is a departure by this time from ubuntu to Debian as a base because all of this something that actually crossed the linux mint's team minds?
Also, i am fairly certain i am not the only one looking at this in a similar way.
Does the LM team see that the announcement of Mark Shutleworth could mean much more.

Yes i understand that LM is not into Gnome, phone or Unity 8........but ehm.....LM is really invested in Ubuntu as a base.
And the question that is raised by this is actually more a existential one. So in my mind it actually is relevant to know what users think about this and how this could effect LM.

Even if it is just ticking of different scenario's, one does not want to be caught with the pants down....ide say
Last edited by Jennifer W on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Fred Barclay » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:09 pm

Jennifer W wrote: Well i guess what i am trying to ask is what all this will mean for Linux Mint?
Is a departure by this time from ubuntu to Debian as a base because all of this something that actually crossed the linux mint's team minds?
LMDE is definitely a fallback for Mint (Clem has said so himself) but I would be very surprised if Mint moved to a Debian base anytime soon. It would be very time-consuming for the team to switch, and (speculation here) Ubuntu would probably have to do some really drastic to make their code base unusable for Mint.

As xenopeek says, we don't use Unity, Gnome 3, or Mir anyways. We already ignore their choice of DE. As long as the underlying code of Ubuntu stays the same, what Cannonical does with their desktop in the future shouldn't affect us.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Jennifer W » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:21 pm

Fred Barclay wrote: LMDE is definitely a fallback for Mint (Clem has said so himself) but I would be very surprised if Mint moved to a Debian base anytime soon. It would be very time-consuming for the team to switch, and (speculation here) Ubuntu would probably have to do some really drastic to make their code base unusable for Mint.

As xenopeek says, we don't use Unity, Gnome 3, or Mir anyways. We already ignore their choice of DE. As long as the underlying code of Ubuntu stays the same, what Cannonical does with their desktop in the future shouldn't affect us.
To be clear, i agree and trust LM team to do the right thing when it would be needed :D
Maybe i am just a bit biased by thinking it is actually time to start preparing for a need for the fallback option or better yet, seeing a need to do so.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Portreve » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Fred Barclay wrote:LMDE is definitely a fallback for Mint (Clem has said so himself) but I would be very surprised if Mint moved to a Debian base anytime soon. It would be very time-consuming for the team to switch, and (speculation here) Ubuntu would probably have to do some really drastic to make their code base unusable for Mint.

As xenopeek says, we don't use Unity, Gnome 3, or Mir anyways. We already ignore their choice of DE. As long as the underlying code of Ubuntu stays the same, what Cannonical does with their desktop in the future shouldn't affect us.
It's more a matter of what happens to Canonical and therefore the impact that that has on Ubuntu. Otherwise, yeah, Clem & Co. are already ignoring everything else the Ubuntu team does, UI-wise. (Thank God.)
Jennifer W wrote:To be clear, i agree and trust LM team to do the right thing when it would be needed :D
Maybe i am just a bit biased by thinking it is actually time to start preparing for a need for the fallback option or better yet, seeing a need to do so.
Paranoia has its uses, Jennifer. :lol:

And yes, I basically trust the LM team as well, otherwise I would not be here.

P.S.: Hey, xenopeek, it's cool. We'll try and behave, honest, gov'nor! :)
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