Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

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xenopeek
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by xenopeek » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:01 pm

DeMus wrote:
xenopeek wrote: We have LMDE because some Linux Mint users prefer the Debian package base for its stability and security.
Xenopeek, did you really say: with the main LinuxMint we don't have the stability and security of the Debian packages? It only exist in LMDE.
Now that would be a reason to skip main Mint right now and only continue with LMDE.
It's a matter of opinion. I'm saying there are users that prefer the Debian package base because they are of the opinion that this package base has better stability and security.

It's been covered by me and others before. In short, only software from the Ubuntu "main" and "restricted" repositories is supported by Canonical and that covers about 25% of the packages. The other 75% of the packages are from the "universe" and "multiverse" repositories with software from "universe" supported by the community (most packages are just imported from Debian) and software from "multiverse" basically being unsupported. You can read more here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories#Main.

In practice you'll find most of your software falls in the 25% category and is just as well supported as on Debian. However, with Debian almost all the packages from its repositories are supported by its security team. So the difference is for the other 75%; if you would install something from there on paper it could be less well supported than on Debian. It all becomes a bit theoretical and opinionated at this point, with risk of degrading into security theater. Just because you could have a program with a known bug doesn't mean it is actionable to do you any real harm. The unknown bugs exist on both systems and are scarier. Just fixing known bugs doesn't give you a secure system.

As for stability, Debian stable goes through a longer period of testing than Ubuntu releases. Ubuntu releases import packages also from Debian unstable and testing repositories. That just means the software has been tested for a shorter period in Debian and Ubuntu. Ultimately the software was already tested by its developers and released as stable. Debian just wants to take more time to confirm that. What difference it makes in the real world is up for (opinionated) discussion. Some may have experiences one way or another. And that Debian stable goes through a longer period of testing doesn't mean its software doesn't have bugs. It means they've taken more time to write down the known bugs :wink:
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by KBD47 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:06 pm

Speaking as a long time Debian fan who began Linux with Debian--Debian Stable is nigh unbreakable. You only get into trouble with it when you change sources or try to force newer software onto it, etc. Debian has a long process that gives the end product of the Stable version. Ubuntu, except for LTS versions, builds against Debian Sid which is the least stable version of Debian. Mint is wise to build against Ubuntu LTS based on the more stable Debian Testing.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by mike acker » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:13 pm

out of curiosity and just for grins I downloaded and installed a straight copy of Debian today. I'm writing with it for this post.

so far I've run into very little trouble.

as we ponder the question "Whither Canonical" -- and hence "Whither Ubuntu" we all may be wondering "Whither the Ubuntu base versions of Mint"

If Canonical becomes a dept. of MSFT it will then be directed by MSFT and all that that would imply. IMHO many of us here wou;dn't see that favorably.

it was with this in mind that I decided to Explore Options.

as we are in the "Chat about Linux" forum this doesn't seem out of place but rather in interesting note, added to the overall commentary -- all of which is very good.
¡Viva la Resistencia!

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Pjotr » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:22 pm

Let's all be happy and thankful that we still have a desktop Ubuntu as intermediate product for Mint. It would be a dark and sad day for desktop Linux indeed, if desktop Ubuntu were to die.

Be nice to Canonical in general and Mark Shuttleworth in particular, and the likelihood of the continued existence of desktop Ubuntu will increase. There's nothing like pissing off a benefactor who incurs heavy financial losses because of his gifts, for speedily ending those gifts. :wink:
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by samriggs » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:36 pm

Debian is great if you don't mind older software, ubuntu on the other hand has more up to date software.
I wasn't a fan of unity or mir but some were, either way I hope ubuntu as a base stays for a long time, it is an excellent base.
Even though I am on an arch base for now, I still use mint as does my family members with the ubuntu base, so hopefully it doesn't goes away.
I would have to live in testing or unstable to get what I need for newer software if I was on debian, but again if you don't mind older stuff it is stable.
Just look at how many distros use ubuntu, that speaks for itself. There are a lot of them.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by all41 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:48 am

could someone summarize what this means for current Mint users.
So Ubuntu is only abandoning Unity--?

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by ColdBoot » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:35 am

all41 wrote:could someone summarize what this means for current Mint users.
So Ubuntu is only abandoning Unity--?
Nothing, Ubuntu continues in much the same fashion regarding desktop use - replacing one tablet DE for the other, even more tablet oriented DE. :roll:
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by DeMus » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:38 am

xenopeek wrote:
DeMus wrote:
xenopeek wrote: We have LMDE because some Linux Mint users prefer the Debian package base for its stability and security.
Xenopeek, did you really say: with the main LinuxMint we don't have the stability and security of the Debian packages? It only exist in LMDE.
Now that would be a reason to skip main Mint right now and only continue with LMDE.
It's a matter of opinion. I'm saying there are users that prefer the Debian package base because they are of the opinion that this package base has better stability and security.
I know it's no use to keep discussing it here but there is a major difference in what you first wrote:

Code: Select all

We have LMDE because some Linux Mint users prefer the Debian package base for its stability and security.
and what you wrote after I pointed it out to you:

Code: Select all

I'm saying there are users that prefer the Debian package base because they are of the opinion that this package base has better stability and security.
First you wrote people want it for the stability and security, then you flaw this by saying they are of the opinion this package base has better stability and security, just to make the main Mint distro don't look bad.

When you look at what is happening it is all so counter productive:
Debian produces software from scratch. They do that in 3 stages: Sid (unstable), Testing and the final Stable product.
Ubuntu takes Sid for the inbetween releases and have a lot of work to make it "stable", something Debian does as well to change Sid into the new Testing.
Ubuntu use Testing for their LTS releases, meaning they still have to change code to make it Stable, something Debian does as well to change Testing into Stable.
Mint uses Ubuntu LTS and changes it again to make it "better" or more "stable" or whatever you want to call it.
Do you see where I'm getting at? Three organizations are working on the same software doing the same thing: making a stable release.

I think it would be wise for Mint to drop the Ubuntu release as base and only use Debian stable for the main release. Add the typical Mint extras to it to make it Mint but don't change the underlying code, it is Stable already.
This would save Mint a whole of work: only one distro instead of two, it would be based on a Stable foundation and it would be Mint with all the extras added to it.
If you also consider to join Mate and Cinnamon (both Gnome based) together, take the best of both worlds so to speak, it would be even better because it means one DE less to maintain.

When I first started using Linux in 2008 I looked at the release schedule and produced a spreadsheet in which I pointed out it would be better to do it differently, less releases but based on more stable software. Plus, less releases mean more time to make your product more stable. What happened a few years ago? Exactly that. Where Mint had a new release every 6 months, because of Ubuntu, they now have a new one every 2 years.

But since my ideas are always different from what others think, until some years later when they realize the ideas weren't that bad, this will not happen now.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by KBD47 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:48 am

I would say main Mint is incredibly Stable as it is based on LTS releases and the users can choose to avoid certain updates that offer a slight chance to break something. The difference in stability in Ubuntu based Mint and LMDE:

You could throw a rock at Mint 18 and not break it :)
You could hit LMDE with a hammer and not break it :)

There is no reason for Mint to do anything right now regarding Ubuntu. The speculation is just from the shock of recent events and wondering if another shoe is going to drop.
Mint has no reason to go full LMDE at this point IMO. Nevertheless, it does not hurt to keep investing in it as some users prefer it and you never know what Ubuntu could do down the road.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by samriggs » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:49 am

xenopeek wrote:In a startling announcement Mark Shuttleworth just shared Canonical will end their investment in Unity8, phone and convergence and Ubuntu will move back to GNOME with release 18.04.

Instead of Unity8, phone and convergence Canonical will invest in: "the areas that are contributing to the growth of the company. Those are Ubuntu itself, for desktops, servers and VMs, our cloud infrastructure products (OpenStack and Kubernetes) our cloud operations capabilities (MAAS, LXD, Juju, BootStack), and our IoT story in snaps and Ubuntu Core."

Edit: Mir will continue to receive investment as Canonical says they have lots of IoT projects using Mir as a compositor. What if anything this means for Ubuntu desktop and whether it will use Wayland or Mir in the future is up for speculation.
All explained in the first thread,
the areas that are contributing to the growth of the company. Those are Ubuntu itself, for desktops
So really nothing at all, the desktop is still going which is the base for mint.
The only real difference is if ubuntu uses mir or wayland, gnome is going wayland if I remember right.
Anyhow if all goes down the tubes (which I hope never happens) there is debian or arch or a lot of others floating around, but I doubt that will ever happen, too much invested to let go now and even if that happened someone else would probably pick it up, just like when gnome 2 went away it became mate instead.

The only real fret would be if Canonical were to hook up with MSFT as stated then ya that will cause a ruckus :twisted:
But even then the base would still be there, just hopefully a pure one not one that would be tainted, but that's just a conspiracy from what I seen so far.
So no worries, linux is here to stay :D
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Lysander666 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:57 am

Portreve wrote: Thanks! We try to be, though *some* of us [points finger at self] can be a touch opinionated from time to time... :wink:
Having spent some time on the Ubuntu forum, and as a huge advocate of free speech, I thoroughly welcome this. It seems that on the former, nearly any criticism of Canonical or Mark S is unwelcome, with posts being deleted and topics locked whenever it looks like someone may offer a negative opinion. I take it that the forums are owned by Canonical but for me, it goes against the philosophy of FOSS not to be able to criticise its devs. This is one thing about my experience so far by reading round the Mint community which is far more human and enjoyable.

Staying on topic, I wasn't aware that LMDE was based on Debian stable. I'll check it out.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by DeMus » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:20 am

Lysander666 wrote:Having spent some time on the Ubuntu forum, and as a huge advocate of free speech, I thoroughly welcome this. It seems that on the former, nearly any criticism of Canonical or Mark S is unwelcome
Well, here it is not much different. Clem, the main developer, is considered to be God and whatever he does is great and fantastic. Just read the messages in the threads about the releases of new versions. "O, thank you Clem, am downloading right now, great release."
This is something I really can not stand. Clem is just a guy who puts his pants on one leg at the time, just like everyone else. Treat him like a normal person. Sure he does good things by releasing new versions of Mint, no comment here. But aren't we all doing great things in our own respective fields of operation? Why treat him as God, I really don't see that.
I've always written what I am thinking, and I noticed especially here in this forum, it is not always appreciated. It is considered to be comment, negative comment, although that's not true. I see things as I see them, and I say things as I see them.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Lysander666 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:43 am

DeMus wrote:
Lysander666 wrote:Having spent some time on the Ubuntu forum, and as a huge advocate of free speech, I thoroughly welcome this. It seems that on the former, nearly any criticism of Canonical or Mark S is unwelcome
Well, here it is not much different. Clem, the main developer, is considered to be God and whatever he does is great and fantastic. Just read the messages in the threads about the releases of new versions. "O, thank you Clem, am downloading right now, great release."
This is something I really can not stand. Clem is just a guy who puts his pants on one leg at the time, just like everyone else. Treat him like a normal person. Sure he does good things by releasing new versions of Mint, no comment here. But aren't we all doing great things in our own respective fields of operation? Why treat him as God, I really don't see that.
I've always written what I am thinking, and I noticed especially here in this forum, it is not always appreciated. It is considered to be comment, negative comment, although that's not true. I see things as I see them, and I say things as I see them.
The only guy who I've seen who seems really humble is Ikey who works on the Solus project. Not to say there aren't others, but he's the only one I've seen. Very down to earth and normal. The larger the community is, the more likely there are people who will fawn over the devs, or moderators at times. But the fact that my initial post was approved [which it wouldn't have been elsewhere], and reading some of the things here already, shows me this place is more lenient. I think that's very important. If we make, use and develop free software, then free speech should be part of that, with all shades of opinions. It's just ironic that Ubuntu, which means humanity for all/in all or something [cannot be bothered to check currently], does not necessarily apply to discussions related to the OS!
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by KBD47 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:53 am

DeMus wrote:
Well, here it is not much different. Clem, the main developer, is considered to be God and whatever he does is great and fantastic. Just read the messages in the threads about the releases of new versions. "O, thank you Clem, am downloading right now, great release."
This is something I really can not stand. Clem is just a guy who puts his pants on one leg at the time, just like everyone else. Treat him like a normal person. Sure he does good things by releasing new versions of Mint, no comment here. But aren't we all doing great things in our own respective fields of operation? Why treat him as God, I really don't see that.
I've always written what I am thinking, and I noticed especially here in this forum, it is not always appreciated. It is considered to be comment, negative comment, although that's not true. I see things as I see them, and I say things as I see them.
I never got that feeling about Clem. I remember Shuttleworth being almost hysterical if someone criticized Unity DE early on. People let Clem know what they think and as another poster mentioned the thread isn't shutdown for it. More than this: Clem Actually Listens To Criticism! When the Gnome 3 fiasco began he paid attention to Mint users and acted accordingly. That is why Mint is awesome today. He also went with LTS Ubuntu and Debian Stable to secure Mint's reputation as a reliable distro. Clem and his team listen to criticism and are approachable, not a god, just a guy with common sense :)

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Portreve » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:11 pm

DeMus wrote:Well, here it is not much different. Clem, the main developer, is considered to be God and whatever he does is great and fantastic. Just read the messages in the threads about the releases of new versions. "O, thank you Clem, am downloading right now, great release."
You say that like it's a bad thing!

I was sitting in front of my house one day, all depressed, and when I heard about Linux Mint, I installed it, and with an hour the dark clouds had parted, and I felt so much better about myself. As a side effect, it cured my leprosy, and my right arm grew back.

Thank you, Clem! You're amazing!

I wonder if anyone else here has had a similar life-changing experience.
Please be polite and remember to mark your fixed problem [SOLVED].

Presently running Ubuntu 19.10 on a MBP 8,1 and dreaming about my return to Linux Mint.

Also looking for a new job.

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by ColdBoot » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:01 pm

Portreve wrote: Thank you, Clem! You're amazing!
Yes, thank you Clem! :D You've managed to make GNOME3 DE PC friendly. :D

And of course, many thanks go to Mark S personally, to a life-changer, who didn't spare his time and money trying to promote a free and open-source OS for so many years. That's Ubuntu for you! :D
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Lucap » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:42 am

How Linux Figures Reacted
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/ubun ... on-roundup

What’s Next for Ubuntu Desktop?
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/what ... uttleworth

Not sure if any of this info has already been posted in other links...

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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by samriggs » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:29 am

@Lucap
nice articles and answers a lot. Thanks

Glad to see all is well and wayland is going strong.
Ubuntu is here to stay and am glad it is.
I wonder if anyone else here has had a similar life-changing experience.
Not so dramatic but it did cure my windows desease and made my laptops work a lot better, I say that's something.

As far as thanking the team, nothing wrong with that, I am sure they appreciate it for all the hours they put in, it is good to get some good feed back at times and some thanks from users.
I'm sure no one thinks of Clem as a god, that responsiblity is to much for any human to handle, you always get fanboys, but you also get folks that are just down right thankful for making their lives easier and big thanks for those who do it and put the effort in without being asked.

and on that note I like thank all developers world wide in the linux world for all their efforts in all distos world wide for making my life happier and easier.
Their is a lot of work involved in developing and sleepless nights for a passion they love and share freely when they don't have to do anything for anyone.

A special thanks to Clem and the team at mint, to Mark and ubuntu, to debian, and to manjaro and arch and even fedora etc etc etc.........
You all opened my eyes to whole new world.

Back to the topic, I am glad to see this happen actually, it seemed the linux world was almost heading into division on some points but now it seems to be heading more back to one huge community again with everyone working together, for that part it is a great move.
Back to development and onward we go.
I only see growth and better stuff coming in the future.
Shared projects usually create great results when egos don't get in the way.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by Lysander666 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:30 am

samriggs wrote: A special thanks to Clem and the team at mint, to Mark and ubuntu, to debian, and to manjaro and arch and even fedora etc etc etc.........
You all opened my eyes to whole new world.

Back to the topic, I am glad to see this happen actually, it seemed the linux world was almost heading into division on some points but now it seems to be heading more back to one huge community again with everyone working together, for that part it is a great move.
Back to development and onward we go.
I only see growth and better stuff coming in the future.
Shared projects usually create great results when egos don't get in the way.
Yes, the convergence that Mark S was hoping for had happened more across Linux in general rather than across Ubuntu devices!

I echo what you say about passing credit to those whom it is due. Yes, Mark S for creating an OS that made me switch after so many years of wanting to [I am specifically talking about 16.04 since I started on 8 and couldn't get it to do what I wanted it to]. But more than that, anyone and everyone - who are mostly nameless - who has put in the huge amount of work to making Linux usable to those who are not Unix wizards.

I do take the point that fanboys are irritating though, and it seems the more active a forum is, there more there are of them. I tend to just ignore them. I will say again though, that there already - to me - appears to be a big difference in the Mint in comparison to Ubuntu community with regard to what is allowed to be discussed. It is a huge relief. Most likely because Mint is not tied to a corporation, I imagine.
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Re: Ubuntu drops Unity and moves back to GNOME

Post by KBD47 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:49 am

Lysander666 wrote: I do take the point that fanboys are irritating though, and it seems the more active a forum is, there more there are of them. I tend to just ignore them. I will say again though, that there already - to me - appears to be a big difference in the Mint in comparison to Ubuntu community with regard to what is allowed to be discussed. It is a huge relief. Most likely because Mint is not tied to a corporation, I imagine.
(bold emphasis above mine)
That is really the core of what happened here. I think if Ubuntu survives intact it will be because they become another Redhat. Compare that to Debian which is a community organized Linux distribution. Or even Mint which is something between the two but smaller and better able to adapt. I think what is getting overlooked is the fact that Ubuntu will be 'following the money'. We have already seen some of this with Amazon being stuck into Ubuntu Unity search, etc. Shuttelworth has made clear that is exactly why all these changes have taken place. Only the users can decide where this leaves them in relationship to Ubuntu. For me I'm taking a harder look and moving back toward Debian. It also makes me appreciate Mint more.

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