The direction I dream for Linux

Chat about Linux in general
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wutsinterweb
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by wutsinterweb »

Not so simple, because any distro that is created expressly for commercially licensed software might present certain challenges to the GNU licensing. However, as my level of understanding is, there IS OSX with Apple based on BSD? So if that is what you are looking for, there you go, it exists!

I simply dread the thought of commercial interests encroaching down onto FOSS in any serious manner. There are millions around the world that I like me, we cannot afford licenses and prefer the development arch with FOSS.

There is quite a list of reasons people like GNU/Linux and BSD, and I am incapable of listing them, but I've read many of them and Lord knows that many of them might make some feel threatened if a big shift to non FOSS took place.

After all, we already HAVE licensed software, it's MS, if that is what you want, there you go!

I'm no purist, but I find myself appreciating RS's mistrust of the big computer industry's power system. Yielding to that industry might be a Pandora's box, and I prefer it not be opened.

One can always buy a Mac or a Windows license if they can afford it if they want expensive softwares. So I don't see what you are asserting.

Best thing for GNU is to stay the course and keep improving and helping those of us unable to spend hundreds/thousands, and who want freedom.

Look at MS's recent tablet/laptop device, you cannot open it without breaking it, if one trusts such a business, well, give them your money, personally I don't care for being controlled that way, it angers me.
I'm just a student, your guidance is appreciated.
HubertCumberdale
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by HubertCumberdale »

Not so simple, because any distro that is created expressly for commercially licensed software might present certain challenges to the GNU licensing.
Commercial Linux software already exists. Plus GNU has no problem with people selling free (as in speech) software. I don't get where you're coming from.
However, as my level of understanding is, there IS OSX with Apple based on BSD? So if that is what you are looking for, there you go, it exists!
How is macOS going to help me when the programs I'm after don't exist in macOS versions?
And even if they did (which they don't), I don't want to hand over silly amounts of cash for overpriced Apple hardware.
I simply dread the thought of commercial interests encroaching down onto FOSS in any serious manner.
Commercial software and FOSS aren't mutally incompatible.
There is quite a list of reasons people like GNU/Linux and BSD, and I am incapable of listing them, but I've read many of them and Lord knows that many of them might make some feel threatened if a big shift to non FOSS took place.
If you'd read my post properly, you'd know that I never said anything about non-FOSS software. I'm talking about FOSS commercial software.
After all, we already HAVE licensed software, it's MS, if that is what you want, there you go
!

Your reading skills are sub-par. Re-read my previous posts.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by Portreve »

In light of revelations by Ed Snowden, WikiLeaks, and others, as well as already-known things (the Clipper Chip effort, intercept rooms in all the major hub central offices on the U.S. telco network) I have no reason to trust — and a great many to actively distrust — private industry as well as our government. (The governments of plenty of other countries are pretty sad, crappy stories, too.)

Therefore, in addition to all the classical reasons to run GNU+Linux, unrestricted peer review and security auditing are to me far more important factors than anything else.

If I were to work for a company which required me to run, for example, MS Office, then they can also supply me the computer on which to run it, because I'll not put any of that (or anyone else's) garbage on my own computer.

The company I do work for has up until recently given us Outlook web access. That's now been shut off for anyone not issued a company computer, and my supervisor has had to adapt by now sending out everything to our private email accounts. I'm just waiting for the company to block inbound attachments from non-company email addresses, because then none of us will be able to file our weekly paperwork.

We trade in MS Office documents, mostly Excel files, and LibreOffice works beautifully for handling them.

However, MrT, let me point out something to you which I have seen in the past, even here on this message board: we don't need fewer choices in order to free up resources to develop more software titles. We just need more people interested in developing those sorts of programs. The single biggest downside I see to a community of developers simply trying to "scratch their own itch" is you don't get the breadth (or sometimes depth) of software you otherwise might.
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HubertCumberdale
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by HubertCumberdale »

Portreve:
In light of revelations by Ed Snowden, WikiLeaks, and others, ...
How do you know Ed Snowden is a reliable source? Or even real? Same goes for WikiLeaks.
I suspect both were either coerced, set up, or invented from scratch, by the CIA and/or NSA and/or other agency (see the film Wag The Dog).
Ed Snowden's CV is very odd to say the least. I don't buy it.
... as well as already-known things (the Clipper Chip effort, intercept rooms in all the major hub central offices on the U.S. telco network) I have no reason to trust — and a great many to actively distrust ..
.

All this stuff will work regardless of the OS you're using. Hardware can be tampered with at the factory. ISPs can spy on anyone.
Therefore, in addition to all the classical reasons to run GNU+Linux, unrestricted peer review and security auditing are to me far more important factors than anything else.
People often say that GNU/Linux is safer because people can inspect the source code.
But when you're talking about code that is millions of lines long, how many people have really gone through all that code with a fine-tooth comb? And if even if they did, how many people are expert enough to understand it and to remove malicious code?
If I were to work for a company which required me to run, for example, MS Office, then they can also supply me the computer on which to run it, because I'll not put any of that (or anyone else's) garbage on my own computer.
If you worked for a company that uses MS Office, then you'll be using their computers to run it.
I don't understand your argument.
The company I do work for has up until recently given us Outlook web access. That's now been shut off for anyone not issued a company computer, and my supervisor has had to adapt by now sending out everything to our private email accounts. I'm just waiting for the company to block inbound attachments from non-company email addresses, because then none of us will be able to file our weekly paperwork.
I don't understand any of that -- you need to clarify -- point by point.
We trade in MS Office documents, mostly Excel files, and LibreOffice works beautifully for handling them.
I suspect that the Excel files you're dealing with aren't heavy-duty ones. From what I've read, heavy-duty Excel files import poorly into LibreOffice Calc and render poorly.
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laederlappen
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by laederlappen »

@HubertCumberdale

There are a couple of online and offline dictionaries, which you can use on Linux.
Maybe you find something that is useful for you on this German website:

https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/W%C3%B6rterb%C3%BCcher/
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by HubertCumberdale »

laederlappen wrote:@HubertCumberdale

There are a couple of online and offline dictionaries, which you can use on Linux.
Maybe you find something that is useful for you on this German website:

https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/W%C3%B6rterb%C3%BCcher/
Thanks for the link. It's a lot to wade through, but I'll be looking into it.
I've used Ding before -- it's not terrible, but nothing to write home about.
What I *really* want is the best of two worlds: The best of offline dictionaries combined with the best of online dictionaries.
And then improving on that combination.
The best general-purpose German-English offline dictionaries I have are Duden Oxford, Langenscheidt Collins and Langenscheidt Muret-Sanders.
The best online German-English dictionary I use is easily https://www.dict.cc/
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by NessM »

To keep it as clean and simple as possible.
More kernels.
MrT wrote:It is no secret: Linux has been successful in dominating the servers market and it is a big player in smart phones. However, it is a small player in the laptop/desktop market. I am new to Linux, little over a month, but I already found out a limitation and the criticism is shared by quite a few people as I could realize by reading around on internet: lack of high-end software.
The internet is full of opinions. You have read people complaining about that, I've read people saying they are happy with the software, in some cases they say Linux software is much better.
It always depends on what you are trying to do with the computer. If you are trying to read a file crafted by some software that is not respecting a standard, then you will have problems. Not because the Linux software lacks the quality, but because the Linux developers are not omniscient, and in many cases (if not all of them) to reverse engineer closed source software is illegal.
It is quite unfair to criticise Linux developers for not being omniscient.
MrT wrote: I see so many Linux distros and I am sure that a lot of superior programming minds are behind each of them. Freedom is good, but if completely unckeck it could bring to bad outcomes as there is too much of a good thing as well. I have a dream that these minds instead of creating ever new distros in Linux were applied to create better software.
There is never too much of a good thing. They are creating new distros because new distros are what you called 'better software'. An operating system is software. A linux distribution is software. The more distros, the better software.

And most of them are not even being paid for it. Many of these folks have their daily jobs, still they are developing and coding during weekends, and then they give it to you for free. They deserve all the respect and donations they can get.

You seem to demand everyone working for the same distro. You can hardly speak of any 'freedom' then.
MrT wrote:I repeat: I have been involved in linux for just a little over a month, but I am already noticing a few patters that in my opinion are not going to lead anywhere. It just seems to me that there is a lot of work going into developing Linux and free software, but often it seems to be spent in direction that will not produce results.
Again, the diversity is part of Linux. I've been around for many years and I love this, the freedom it gives everyone to do whatever they want with it, including the overwhelming millions of distributions.
It is easier to find what you need when you look for it. And when you know what you want, of course.
Very different to the approach of 'This is our OS, this is all the software you can use, so go and do it because you've got no other choice anyways'.
It's different, that's all.
MrT wrote:As a side note. The applets and desklets that I see in Linux Mint often do not even work or do half of what they claim. Sure it takes a moment to uninstall them and I think I uninstalled 95% of the apps and desklets I installed within 2 hours, but that seems overall nice efforts applied in directions that are not leading anywhere.
They were created with a particular set of users in mind. You were not one of those users, so to you they seemed useless and decided to uninstall them. I think users like you would benefit if you wrote for them and yourself the perfect applets and desklets.
MrT wrote:As things are, as much as I loved Linux and its idea, I cannot ditch Windows 10.
Don't. The whole point of Linux is giving people a choice, not impossing on them what they should use.
You can have both if you like, and that's fine too. Other operating systems have evolved, and Linux continues to evolve too.
If I were you I'd keep both. Use your other OS and forget all about Linux, because it won't bother you, it's not a living thing, doesn't need any water or food, it'll be fine wherever you put it.
MrT wrote:It just cannot be done. The average user will not bother with dual boot WIndows and Linux also when so much out there is still addressing the BiOS firmware when laptops with UEFI have been sold for 4-5 years.
Some will bother, some won't. I never had a single issue with Linux regarding UEFI. I had many issues (and will have many issues) with packages, dependencies and other stuff, because unless you force everyone to use a single distribution and a single set of software, you will always run into these problems one way or another (I use mint, which is debian stable underneath, but I also use other distributions with pacman).

I see no need to defend Linux as much as I see no need to rant about the other os you mentioned, or any other os. I use whatever I must use for various tasks. I can only say that for very normal, private computing, Linux is perfect. Nowadays it is mature and stable enough to please your average user, even the users who don't 'understand' computers do adapt very quickly.
If your experience with Linux had been only 20 years ago, I think you wouldn't even had bothered to post here. Because things were not that easy back then. If you wanted Linux, you had to really earn it on your harddrive. Back then I never read posts like yours. Things have changed so much that we've come to this point.

I could complain about it, how everyone nowadays, even the people who hate Linux are capable of install it, and then rush to post about how bad it is, but I guess your post proves Linux's success in making it so damned easy for everyone. Even if you complain, you are proving how good Linux is.

Seriously now : Just keep both and use whatever you like, and don't expect anything to be perfect, because 'perfect' doesn't exist.
Code. Find bugs and report them. Support Developers by donations. Provide feedback. Make suggestions. Support other users. Keep in mind support is provided you for free. Take a shower regularly.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by ColdBootII »

NessM wrote: If your experience with Linux had been only 20 years ago, I think you wouldn't even had bothered to post here. Because things were not that easy back then. If you wanted Linux, you had to really earn it on your harddrive. Back then I never read posts like yours. Things have changed so much that we've come to this point.

I could complain about it, how everyone nowadays, even the people who hate Linux are capable of install it, and then rush to post about how bad it is, but I guess your post proves Linux's success in making it so damned easy for everyone. Even if you complain, you are proving how good Linux is.
+1

Every bit true...
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by AdamH »

Regarding CAD, I did research into AutoCAD alternatives for Linux a while back (for potential customers) - and BricsCAD seems like a well-regarded commercial alternative that works on Linux: https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/.

As for myself, I think it's possible to run both Linux & Windows together in harmony, with Linux as the "Host" OS and Windows as a "Guest" OS inside a VM (Virtual Machine). I currently use VirtualBox for that: but my next area of investigation, for running Audio & Video-intensive software (Audio Editing, Video editing, 3D CAD/CAM, not to mention gaming, and any other Windows-specific software), will be to build a new desktop computer specifically with "PCI passthrough" in mind. This entails careful selection of hardware, and is a very detailed topic to cover (search for various acronyms such as "IOMMU", "PCI passthrough", "GPU passthrough", "VFIO", "KVM", "QUEMU", etc), but basically enables you to set up a high-performance Windows VM, suitable for intensive graphical or audio applications (some use it for gaming). Then you can confine Windows to an easily-managed VM, easier to backup etc, and use the Linux host for everything else, and you'll be safer too (regarding ransomware, other malware, etc). This technology is still in its early stages though.

There's a topic on these forums about it: viewtopic.php?f=231&t=212692

One day hopefully as the hardware & software evolves, it will be much easier to set up this type of system - but it is do-able, with careful research and selecting the right components - at least on Desktop PCs - may be a bit harder for laptops.

Kind regards,

Adam. :-)
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by MrT »

Virtualboxes or Virtual machines are fine and I use them too when I must. But, I do not like the fact that I cannot dedicate all resources to the virtual machine and thus it is sort of a sub-par machine. For example, if I have 4 cores, I can only assign 3 to the Virtualbox. The world does not end because of it, but .... I started using Linux in a Virtualbox and got familiar with it, but always felt that it was not the optimal solution. So I went for dual boot for when I am in Linux, it gets allocated all the resources of my machine. That is the way I am: too many years in pure math and you only crave the most general and most sophisticated solutions. It is a forma mentis that comes with the territory, I suppose.

I checked all free-math software for Linux (and Windows) and some is excellent. However, I still think that Wolfram Mathematica is my favorite and I bought it for Linux. Free software for me is "software does not spy on me" and if it is not an ungodly amount of money, I do not mind to pay for good advanced softwares. CAD/CAM is more of a hobby, but hardcore users told me about the issues with running their stuff on Linux. So word of mouth, to be specific, but professional mouths at that.

I asked developers, people who do that for a living, why Linux is not their priority on PC's and they were pretty much in agreement when they answered that it is too much trouble to keep up with all distros and considering the not so big numbers of potential users to start with. So, in this case, I keep my original opinion that there is indeed too much of a good thing. If Linux is to be intended as a game, an intellectual pursuit, then it is fine: the more distros, the better. On the other hand, my understanding was that it is supposed to replace other OS's and/or improve on them and in this case I fail to see how the ever growing list of distros is going to help. In theory, if everyone had the skills to develop his or her own distro, then hopefully there is some standard to share or we will all be isolated in our own world.

It has been a few more months since I started using Linux, and my skill set has grown. I cannot stand to use version x.y of a program when version x.y+1 is available and I took things in my own hand, without waiting for repositories and suppositories. Some software that for me is an absolute must, I did buy. I am looking forward with as little excitement to when Linux Mint upgrades will come as when Windows 10 does it, for it means that I will likely have to reinstall everything and go around and plea with the software companies to let me re-install my products on the new OS. On one machine upgrading from Linux Mint 18.1 to 18.2 slowed down things. On my big machine, I am concerned about the 18.3 and positively worry about the 19 series which would almost certainly mean a full reinstallation of things. So, in the last 2-3 months I changed my mind on a lot of things, but still think that "too many distros is not a good thing, in general". That opinion I do retain.
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wutsinterweb
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by wutsinterweb »

AdamH wrote:Regarding CAD, I did research into AutoCAD alternatives for Linux a while back (for potential customers) - and BricsCAD seems like a well-regarded commercial alternative that works on Linux: https://www.bricsys.com/en-intl/.

As for myself, I think it's possible to run both Linux & Windows together in harmony, with Linux as the "Host" OS and Windows as a "Guest" OS inside a VM (Virtual Machine). I currently use VirtualBox for that: but my next area of investigation, for running Audio & Video-intensive software (Audio Editing, Video editing, 3D CAD/CAM, not to mention gaming, and any other Windows-specific software), will be to build a new desktop computer specifically with "PCI passthrough" in mind. This entails careful selection of hardware, and is a very detailed topic to cover (search for various acronyms such as "IOMMU", "PCI passthrough", "GPU passthrough", "VFIO", "KVM", "QUEMU", etc), but basically enables you to set up a high-performance Windows VM, suitable for intensive graphical or audio applications (some use it for gaming). Then you can confine Windows to an easily-managed VM, easier to backup etc, and use the Linux host for everything else, and you'll be safer too (regarding ransomware, other malware, etc). This technology is still in its early stages though.

There's a topic on these forums about it: viewtopic.php?f=231&t=212692

One day hopefully as the hardware & software evolves, it will be much easier to set up this type of system - but it is do-able, with careful research and selecting the right components - at least on Desktop PCs - may be a bit harder for laptops.

Kind regards,

Adam. :-)

Great tip, when I'm ready to buy a Linux based CAD program, if I get to that point, that looks like a winner and will let me stay off of using that other OS.
I'm just a student, your guidance is appreciated.
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wutsinterweb
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by wutsinterweb »

MrT wrote:Virtualboxes or Virtual machines are fine and I use them too when I must. But, I do not like the fact that I cannot dedicate all resources to the virtual machine and thus it is sort of a sub-par machine. For example, if I have 4 cores, I can only assign 3 to the Virtualbox. The world does not end because of it, but .... I started using Linux in a Virtualbox and got familiar with it, but always felt that it was not the optimal solution. So I went for dual boot for when I am in Linux, it gets allocated all the resources of my machine. That is the way I am: too many years in pure math and you only crave the most general and most sophisticated solutions. It is a forma mentis that comes with the territory, I suppose.

I checked all free-math software for Linux (and Windows) and some is excellent. However, I still think that Wolfram Mathematica is my favorite and I bought it for Linux. Free software for me is "software does not spy on me" and if it is not an ungodly amount of money, I do not mind to pay for good advanced softwares. CAD/CAM is more of a hobby, but hardcore users told me about the issues with running their stuff on Linux. So word of mouth, to be specific, but professional mouths at that.

I asked developers, people who do that for a living, why Linux is not their priority on PC's and they were pretty much in agreement when they answered that it is too much trouble to keep up with all distros and considering the not so big numbers of potential users to start with. So, in this case, I keep my original opinion that there is indeed too much of a good thing. If Linux is to be intended as a game, an intellectual pursuit, then it is fine: the more distros, the better. On the other hand, my understanding was that it is supposed to replace other OS's and/or improve on them and in this case I fail to see how the ever growing list of distros is going to help. In theory, if everyone had the skills to develop his or her own distro, then hopefully there is some standard to share or we will all be isolated in our own world.

It has been a few more months since I started using Linux, and my skill set has grown. I cannot stand to use version x.y of a program when version x.y+1 is available and I took things in my own hand, without waiting for repositories and suppositories. Some software that for me is an absolute must, I did buy. I am looking forward with as little excitement to when Linux Mint upgrades will come as when Windows 10 does it, for it means that I will likely have to reinstall everything and go around and plea with the software companies to let me re-install my products on the new OS. On one machine upgrading from Linux Mint 18.1 to 18.2 slowed down things. On my big machine, I am concerned about the 18.3 and positively worry about the 19 series which would almost certainly mean a full reinstallation of things. So, in the last 2-3 months I changed my mind on a lot of things, but still think that "too many distros is not a good thing, in general". That opinion I do retain.
These "Professionals" (you indicate a multitude of them, supposedly complain about too many distros. That is not a very valid complaint for a "pro" to make. A simple check, a little reading reveals that there are, at most, what, 5 major braches of most of the distros and for most professional use, the top main branch trunks are more than good enough, if not better, for most "professional" uses. And Linux is Linux, GNU is GNU, the differences between distros is much to do with the GUI and file handling more than important functionality, and I AM NEW TO THIS, BUT KNOW THIS.

There are so many advantages, what about those?

Windows updating is done without your permission or forces scheduling if you have a pro license and not only takes over your system and makes you sit there and wait for anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours unable to do anything on the system. Most GNU/Linux distros update WHILE the system is useable, and rarely require a reboot until you want to do so, and the reboot will happen MUCH faster, updates don't put a system to a crawl.

Anti Malware will use up to or more than 10-30 percent of a computer's cycles
And then
Anti Virus will use yet more cycles
And other background things you cannot do without in Windows.

Linux? Very much less background processes and most are doing things you really want to be done, not things you are required to do just to survive on it.

Windows still BSODs from drivers going south and updates drivers when you don't expect it.

Linux you can control your driver installations that are not kernel built in and prevent problems before they appear.

I'll stop there, but one can easily make an argument that any REAL professional would realize all the true benefits to FOSS/GNU/Linux and tend to extol the advantages rather than whine about too many choices. As what's his name in the Simpsons says "Thinking's HARD!"
I'm just a student, your guidance is appreciated.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by revian »

You could always write your own software. I asked if a certain type of app were available and someone suggested that I learn Python 3 and create the app myself. Well, I thought it would be quite daunting, but learning Python 3 has been surprisingly easy so far.. and I've already written a handful of useful scripts for my own use. I still need to learn Tkinter or PyGObject and I'll begin writing the app I was asking about a few months ago. Then I simply need to learn how to get it into official repos. Viola, problem solved.

There is no reason that users cannot write their own software. There are lots of excuses.. but no real reasons.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by BG405 »

revian wrote:There is no reason that users cannot write their own software. There are lots of excuses.. but no real reasons.
And that is the major difference between closed- and open-source software. The ability to contribute things without having to invest lots of money in proprietary development tools first ... and pay more money to monopolize it.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by catweazel »

BG405 wrote: And that is the major difference between closed- and open-source software. The ability to contribute things without having to invest lots of money in proprietary development tools first ... and pay more money to monopolize it.
Given that Microsoft makes Visual Studio available free of charge and has done so for years, what mainstream proprietary development tools did you have in mind?
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by BG405 »

catweazel wrote:Microsoft makes Visual Studio available free of charge and has done so for years
I didn't know that, but then it's years since I looked in to programming stuff for Windows. Will have to look in to it. Still proprietary though, I assume.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by catweazel »

BG405 wrote:Still proprietary though, I assume.
Parts of it, yes, but Mono on Linux = dotNet on Windwoes.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by rick gen »

Really depends on what you use your OSes for.
If Windows is still essential to your needs, then why drop it?
I dual boot, but I haven't used Windows for a long while now.
I'll boot in it if I need to. Simple as that.
No need to wrestle with it.
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by wutsinterweb »

That is a reasonable argument. But spending money on it, or hassling with licensing with fresh installs I don't know, I'm not so enthusiastic.

Also, I know this will be hard to believe, but twice on my desktop here Windows 10 removed linux, not just the Grub/boot loader and settings, but the entire group of Linux partitions, without me knowing it or choosing so, during major updates. That was the last straw.

I actually didn't need it and didn't see the point of hassling more than necessary. Yes, why uninsttall something if you can have both? Well, Windows takes a massive amount of maintainance, updates where you can't do squat while it is doing them, stress that it will mess up bootloader and the hassles of fixing it, the space it takes up on drives (which is more than similar uses with Linux), the duplication of processes and added work involved...

Neah, I'll just do without.

My stress level has dropped a LOT since dumping Windows and whenever I have to go on a Windows box I'm pretty unhappy. Sure, I am still learning how to do Linux things and how it works, but it's less mysterious and more explicit and open.
I'm just a student, your guidance is appreciated.
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Portreve
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Re: The direction I dream for Linux

Post by Portreve »

It's become my view that, if it requires proprietary software to do, then it isn't worth doing. If that means finding something else to do with your life, then you probably need the change anyhow.
Your humble Portreve.

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