Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

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Aleron Ives
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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by Aleron Ives » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:11 am

Moem wrote:I don't think that would work, because people would not keep it up to date and/or have more than one computer, and so the results would often be misleading.
An alternative might be to put new users into a group that can only post in a "new users" forum. In this forum, the user is required to make a post with the output of inxi -Fxz to prove that he is capable of following the kind of instructions that forum members are likely to provide as part of the troubleshooting process. The most effective way to keep people who don't meet this criterion off the main forum would be to have posts in this forum require moderator approval, so that moderators could approve only those posts that either a) provide the inxi output or b) contain a legitimate question from the user as to how to do so. Once the user's post is approved, his post count increments to 1, and he is able to access the rest of the forum, while users with unapproved posts remain unable to access the other forums.

This would be a significant amount of work for the moderators, however, so unless a special group of trustworthy forum-specific moderators is created to monitor this forum, allowing users to post there without moderator approval would at least forcibly expose them to a common troubleshooting step, and hopefully most people would benefit from that exposure and therefore make more relevant posts on the rest of the forum. As an alternative to posting the inxi output, the user could be asked to answer a series of questions that the staff deems important for everybody to be able to answer, instead.

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:35 am

^ All I can say is omg and OUCH !!!! Hmmmm, plonk or not to plonk ? That remains a question !? Kidding about the last part. One such post does not a plonk make. :) But jebuz man. :shock:

Now something more reasonable like requiring people to undergo extensive psychiatric evaluations, IQ testing and/or submit a urine or DNA sample prior to being allowed to post or become a full fledged member of the community, now that yeah, what you suggest is madness !

Sighs ... yeap, still being a dork.

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by Aleron Ives » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:38 am

I'm not necessarily advocating for the implementation of such a harsh system; my point is merely that if your goal is to control the influx of people who post questions without reading the forum's best practices documentation that there are ways to force them to do so. ;)

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:49 am

No worries, seriously though BIG difference between encouraging people to do basic common sense things, with or without some punishment or penalty as the result of repeatedly failing to. Such users actually already do risk and have an unspoken penalty hanging over them. That being many people simply won't bother responding to them if they can't show any effort or provide even some sliver of information.

Whereas plenty of others, related in ilk have no such restrictions or standards, they'll respond to anything, often themselves having absolutely no clue what they're doing. Aka: Blind leading the blind situation and quality of information that goes along with it. Anyway ... going to shut it.

That's what such a heavy-handed for newb, by newb, restricted to newbs, only newbs section would be too. Any better quality people new to Mint would no doubt quickly say WTH ? This is retarded, they put me in a concentration camp section of the community !?!?!?! I'M SO OUT OF HERE !

Not all noobz are created equal either, some have a true aptitude and passion for tech, seen more than a few brand new to gnu/Linux pop-up and within span of a couple months rocket past and teaching people who've been using it for a decade. I was one such person, not being arrogant, just being honest and been in communities and know nixers, who came along years after I did and ended up blowing right past me. Learn stuff from them all the time and would have to be kidding myself to think I have the same skill and knowledge level they do.

Also pointlessly pointing out, that new member of the Mint community/forum. By no means new to the greater gnu/Linux community either. Someone might sign up today, who while new to the LM forum, is an UBER NIX/tech NINJA, whose been using gnu/Linux before most supergeeks, had even heard such a thing existed. Needless to say, such a person would no doubt be instantly infuriated at such treatment, shrugs. As such fundamentally violates every decent code I believe open source and gnu/Linux stands for.

Anyway ... yep, time to shut da heck up. Hmmmm ... starting to wonder if I can PLONK myself. :D

PS, Hmmm if you were saying banishment of some of the worst repeat offenders, then I might've +1 your post. Though such also readily exists as is, called reprimand ... persist despite it, yep mentioned on/in my fantasy community such would be MEGA BANNED without much warning. Have come to conclude not all people are good members of a community. LM is one of the openest, friendliest and most tolerant around though. Think it can definitely be a double edged sword personally. Also the whole what good is having reasonable rules, expectation and a code of conduct. If none of which is enforced ? Oh well PLONK <myself>. :P

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:11 am

Anyway ... to reiterate, a nudge in the form of encouraging people to show basic consideration and decency, ala: Read these, be reminded of these things before you post the first few times and even with an explanation as to why it's being done. Not heavy-handed ... not unreasonable at all. Any community has basic standards of acceptable conduct, think an online one shouldn't be any different.

Now if you want to throw in the DNA request just to see the look on people's faces. Hey I'd +1 that too. :D

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by MintBean » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:35 pm

Lucap wrote:This thread is nothing more than a bunch of obnoxious and unpleasant people giving themselves a credence to Nerd Bully people. :wink:
I won't speak for every post on here as some are too long for me to have read, but I certainly don't think that's the intention of a lot of us, and I don't particularly appreciate the passive-agressive blanket statement.

People get tired of repetitive tasks. If we can solve that, we solve an issue that is clearly causing some would-be helpers to give up on it. That's not good for 'business,' and whilst we may hear many times how precious a resource those newbies are, let's not forget the resource (which I believe is in shorter supply) of those who help out, and let's try to do everything possible to improve things for them and keep that resource engaged.

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:17 pm

FIGHT !!! My money's on the Pea's, they got the other guy outnumbered 3 to 1. :D

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by MintBean » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:00 pm

Ha... first off, they're clearly 'Mintbeans,' not peas... and they prefer a quiet night in the pod to fisticuffs. Not looking to go all 'armchair warrior' and I know from past interaction that Lucap's a jolly good fellow. Just a statement on a statement...

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:07 pm

Ah well there goes that ! UnPLONKED the guy anyway. Wasn't in the most patient of moods last night. :D

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by JeremyB » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:38 pm

It would be difficult to get every poster to read the rules- viewtopic.php?f=17&t=83314 and the various sticky posts and FAQ's on any forum. Even ubuntuforums has people that don't read them, even though they are at the top of the page. inxi is not my preferred choice for many of the posts I answer and even google will mislead people with outdated info. One of the most important things is to be nice if you are asking or answering questions here and new users coming from Windows are likely going to be confused as I know I was 3.5 years ago

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by Lucap » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:02 am

MintBean wrote:I don't particularly appreciate the passive-agressive blanket statement.
Which would you prefer? :D

Expecting those that don't understand a subject should make life easier for those that do understand a subject is based on back to front dumbass logic considering this is supposed to be a help forum.

or

The more people we help to use Mint then the more money Clem will get in donations to develop and improve Mint for all of us?

:wink:

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:52 am

^ Absolutely, completely oblivious one-sided logic, anyone who disagree's with you and the rude/arrogant and imo ignorant junk views is a person suffering "dumbazz" logic. :D You might want to expand your mind, maturity level and/or go look in the mirror chief. Do think the idea outlined in the OP could provide some benefit. Could care less if you agree with that or not. In ending ... re-PLONK. Population 2 atm. :D

Oops, also it's a forum and logically ... one of the fundamental purposes of a forum is discussion, as in this thread, posted in the appropriate section. So far all your contributions have been arrogant, ignorant and insulting with no value at all related to the topic under discussion. End of day, you're entitled to whatever views you may have and however your thought processes work. Also though end of day, I don't have to see it and be annoyed by you. PLONK, PLONK ... PLONKKKKKK! :D

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by MintBean » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:09 pm

I go to the doctor's. They are experts in their field. I am a 'noob' in that realm of knowledge, but I am the expert on my symptoms, moreso than the doctor. I can go in, answer questions fully and add information I may believe pertinent, or I can go in quiet, giving minimal answers. So yes, someone of lesser experience can certainly help someone with more expertise. I may have to answer some questions to get past the receptionist; there are a few basic rules I must obey (e.g. I can't turn up and barge into the office, I must make an appointment) to make things workable. I can't use 'I'm a noob' as a trump card to circumvent those rules. Systems can be (and are) put in place to assist the doctors. The system can be analysed and improved.

The false dichotomy/dumbass logic rests squarely in your quarter.
Last edited by MintBean on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:23 pm

^ Cool analogy, am sure when you do go to the doctor, you provide ample and adequate information for them to go on. Guessing they've never had to ask you which version or what desktop you're running. :D

Dang more pointless elaboration:

Didn't say I don't have TONS of effective ways to mitigate this issue for myself and am sure anyone else could and has applied the same practices. Support is voluntary, period ... so I have many choices, curtail forum participation, not bother responding, restrict to other sections ie: Off-topic or general Nix discussion etc and avoid support section like the plague and/or what I'm more and more leaning towards personally, liberal use of PLONK'ing when do bother venturing into Help + support.

Yeah it gets tedious seeing people say over and over run "inxi inxi -Fxz" and note the f in the command is a capital F, just in case your so out of touch even your eyeballs aren't working and the endless which version of Mint, what desktop and people forcefully having to drag out any worthwhile information to help someone and/or encouraging them in ways they can help themselves.

So for me ... not really a problem, at least no shortage of solutions but the idea was to get a dialogue and feedback going on something which could be beneficial to everybody using the forum. Apparently there is some basis, as there's been more yea's than nay's and sure plenty came along, nodded head yep, hey that isn't the worst idea I've ever seen. Again though, final decision and any work/effort involved is up to Admin and Mint HQ.

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:32 pm

Nope not so fast one more cause it's funny. Have met more than a few people who are so braindead and oblivious, think they know more than the doctor(s). Clearly without the slightest clue and lucky if they can count all their fingers/toes successfully. So with that type of person, when they do visit a medical professional. Think it's best they just keep their mouth shut, anything they have to add will likely be nonsense and confuse the process of helping them overall. Of course with such types, they are going to blather on endlessly no matter what.

Also sure many the medical professional dealing with those sorts has wished for or even actively employed the power of the PLONK. ie: Ummmmm, sorry I'm not accepting new patients at this time, so I won't be able to ever see you again. PLONKKKKKKKK, sigh of relief. :D

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by Penn » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:02 pm

Wow. Anger issues.

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:26 pm

^ Yeah sure, someone butts into a topic of discussion and at the basis of their contribution and response, is you're a big-stoopid head, accompanied by some clearly arrogant, insulting and reasonable to classify as ignorant overtones. Sure ... let's keep it real and say I'm supposed to give em a hug and say a BIG thank you, sooo much for insulting me and others here !

Not so much anger, as natural and logical reaction. Besides ... didn't really allow them to illicit such a response from me, if I allowed every such person to so easily push my buttons and aggravate me, feel that'd be being stupid. Did however take a convenient and easy road to a solution, thus they are and shall remain this time, PLONKED !!! :D

lmintnewb2

Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by lmintnewb2 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:23 pm

Funny ... so can't help posting it. Yep definitely going to have to curtail forum participation. There is such a thing as being a gnu/Linux forum addict and I've been showing signs and plenty symptoms of it lately. :D

Also ... will continue occasionally venturing into Help + Support but am 110% certain, that the average visit in near future will go something along the following lines :D PLONK, plONK, plonk, PLONK x2, PLONKKKKKKK, plonktified, plOnKedy ... plonk, plonk. PloNKKKK ! :lol:
Someone you know may be suffering from Linux Mint forum addiction. Don't let them suffer in silence, help is available !

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by MintBean » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:54 pm

This thread needs terminated I think... mods? :lol:

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Re: Just a possibly good idea or not in teaching new users to post.

Post by Penn » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:55 pm

lmintnewb2 wrote:Funny ... so can't help posting it. Yep definitely going to have to curtail forum participation. There is such a thing as being a gnu/Linux forum addict and I've been showing signs and plenty symptoms of it lately. :D

Also ... will continue occasionally venturing into Help + Support but am 110% certain, that the average visit in near future will go something along the following lines :D PLONK, plONK, plonk, PLONK x2, PLONKKKKKKK, plonktified, plOnKedy ... plonk, plonk. PloNKKKK ! :lol:
Someone you know may be suffering from Linux Mint forum addiction. Don't let them suffer in silence, help is available !
That last post didn't make it clear if the "plonk" was aimed at me. If so, I hope someone else will benefit. If not, maybe another approach may help you see the concern some might have when disagreeing. My own personal experience in asking for help.

Since I first started learning about computers the amount of times I've asked for help is VERY low. I can think of three reasons to ask for help.

1 - I can't get online at all which doesn't apply here since that is a call to my ISP. That has happened twice to me (and one of those times it quickly became obvious I knew more than the person trying to help me).

2 - I tried for a long time to find an answer and for one reason or another I couldn't find it. That hasn't happened to me on this forum but if it did I would probably be able to ask for help in a reasonable.

3 - This is the one that does apply to me on this forum. Not knowing enough to even know how to ask for help in an adequate way. With what I know about remote desktop solutions now I can see how my first question on this forum was something no one wanted to touch. I didn't even know the words "remote desktop" at that time. All I knew was it was possible to run two computers from one HID set up through a network instead of a KVM switch. I saw VNC and figured it was what I wanted. I still didn't even know the phrase "remote desktop". I tried a lot to get it working and nothing was getting me any progress.

At this point, for the first time in my life, I tried to get help on a forum. Even though I had a pretty decent amount of tech knowledge, in this situation I knew absolutely nothing. And it remained that way because no one answered my question. Zero responses.

That is actually better than what I used to see with Linux when I first heard of it. What I saw back then was elitist jerks who wanted to be what Lucap referred to as nerd bullies. That was back in the days when Linux wasn't yet well documented and what documentation existed was impossible for most people in this world to understand (a lot of it still is). I made an attempt to install it. When that didn't work, I gave up. There was no way in Hell I was going to try to ask those people questions. (It still would have been nice if someone would have at least tried to help me but Husse was long gone by them. Thanks to fortune for leading me to finding out who he was.)

Now, the idea of automated forum actions trying to point a new person to other ways of finding solutions is fine and not something most would feel insulted by. Human interaction such as I've seen from most Linux forums is. This forum is an exception. There are maybe half a dozen people on this board that usually come across as hosers but most of them are tame compared to what I see elsewhere in the Linux world.

The friendly nature of most on this board is a draw to Mint and therefore, since many have never used other GNU OSs, a draw to Linux. I'd hate for someone who is burning out from an addiction to chase people away.

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