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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:32 pm
by majpooper
The stas for the USA at least are:
Someone in 67% of American households play video games on a regular basis and of those 62% are played on a PC.

http://www.theesa.com/about-esa/essenti ... -industry/

https://mygaming.co.za/news/features/89 ... arket.html

The problem for me is that sometimes the terms PC and laptop are blurred.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:15 am
by bensatlantic
JSeymour wrote:
michael louwe wrote:It's possible for the normal x-86 Linux to win the desktop and laptop if Google acquires Canonical-Ubuntu or Clem-Linux Mint, for example.
*shudder* -- I think I'd have to move to FreeBSD--or at least a Linux not derived from, or in any way dependent upon, Ubuntu.
I've used Linux for 5 years now and love the freedom FROM Microsoft but have never used anything but Mint or Ubuntu. Just curious (and not disagreeing) - are you implying by your comment that Ubuntu-based derivatives would or already do, have too much control over the OS due to Ubuntu as an organization?

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:56 am
by michael louwe
@ bensatlantic, .......
bensatlantic wrote:...
.
Google's successful business model has been to offer free software product and services to consumers in return for the ability to garner revenue from the sales of ads and marketing data, eg Search, Maps, Chrome, Gmail, etc. This is similar to the business model of free-to-air TV companies like ABC, CBS and FOX. This is a fair trade.

Using the same business model, Google have won the smartphone/tablet by offering free Android to consumers in return for the ability to garner revenue from the sales of mobile ads, apps and marketing data.
... Google can also similarly win the desktop if they acquire Canonical-Ubuntu or Clem-LM, for example.

Google's Web-based Chrome OS is not cutting it in the mainstream desktop market, even though it is also offered to consumers for free. Chrome OS, a Linux derivative, was an overly selfish and greedy invention by Google, ie Google wanted to force Chrome OS users onto the Web or online since that is where they make their money. Hence, Google purposely crippled Chrome OS so that it is of not much use off-line.
... Since the Broadband Internet age, most computer users do go online and very often. So, there was no need for Google to force them online with their crippled Chrome OS. Google would have done much better by offering a full-featured Linux desktop OS, like Ubuntu or LM, to the consumers for free, ie instead of Chromebooks, Ubuntubooks or Mintbooks.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:17 pm
by JSeymour
bensatlantic wrote:
JSeymour wrote:
michael louwe wrote:It's possible for the normal x-86 Linux to win the desktop and laptop if Google acquires Canonical-Ubuntu or Clem-Linux Mint, for example.
*shudder* -- I think I'd have to move to FreeBSD--or at least a Linux not derived from, or in any way dependent upon, Ubuntu.
Just curious (and not disagreeing) - are you implying by your comment that Ubuntu-based derivatives would or already do, have too much control over the OS due to Ubuntu as an organization?
No. I'm implying that what Google (Alphabet, actually) would do to the Ubuntu distros would likely have a net negative effect.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:37 am
by Jedinovice
Jedinovice wrote:
UpholderOfTruth wrote:@Jedinovie
Some of what you say is true but a lot of it doesn't relate to what I experience working here in the IT industry in the UK and from what I can see other parts of the world. Also your conclusions are, in my opinion, way off.
HI upholder, i have all but finished a Looonnng reply to all your 'concerns' but it's 2AM here and I really gotta get some sleep. I want to review my response, clean out at least some of the typos and probably add anime, er, emoticons, to temper the feel of the text. Discussion can make someone sound aggressive when they are just asserting/arguing dispassionately. I don't want to flame you in anyway way.

So wait for my reply, OK? I think you have made a couple of errors that have thrown you "off scent!" But give me time, OK? :D

Hey, at least I'm optimistic here!
And, believe me,I am not a natural optimist. I'm actually an idealist but that tends towards disappointment!

Phew! Done it! Took ages.

Don't make so many points at the same time next time!
smartyell.jpg
smartyell.jpg (41.58 KiB) Viewed 833 times
[Humor! I have to mention that online as I find many misread my posts and take me seriously!! That's why I use anime pics to indicate and to lighten the tone.]

In case I end up accused of hijacking a thread I have started a new thread on this top and posted my reply here:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=259799

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:37 am
by michael louwe
@ Jedinovice, .......
Jedinovice wrote:...
.
The Pinebook is just a new effort by foolish people trying to use hardware that are specific to mobile phablets for desktop/laptop computers, especially the ARM mobile processors.

Previously, there had been efforts to use software that are specific to mobile phablets for desktop/laptop computers, eg M$'s Win 8.x's Metro Tiles and Ubuntu's Unity desktop environment. Such efforts have been proven to be a failure or non-user-friendly, eg M$ have re-introduced the Start Menu in Win 10 and Ubuntu will be abandoning their Unity DE.

Mobile phablets and immobile desktops are two different platforms wrt software and hardware, and they should remain separate, eg Ubuntu on x-86 and Ubuntu on ARM are two different Linux distros.
... Apple, the richest tech company, wisely kept their mobile phablets and desktp/laptop computers apart, wrt hardware and software.

Similarly, cars and large lorries are different modes of transport. It is foolish to put a car engine inside a large lorry and vice versa.
... So, it is foolish to put a crippled ARM processor and limited eMMC Flash-drive inside a laptop or desktop.

After 26 years since its first release, Linus Torvald's Linux's world desktop OS marketshare has never risen above 3% = lack of support from software developers and hardware OEMs = a vicious cycle of being perennial losers. Like they say, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".
... The Pinebook will likely not be Linux's "white knight in shining armour".

Anyway, time will tell.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:21 am
by Moem
michael louwe wrote:The Pinebook is just a new effort by foolish people trying to use hardware that are specific to mobile phablets for desktop/laptop computers, especially the ARM mobile processors.
It's not foolish if people buy it. :wink:

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:48 am
by UpholderOfTruth
moem wrote:It's not foolish if people buy it.
It is if only foolish people buy it. :D

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:52 am
by thx-1138
Microsoft ported VS Code to linux...
Microsoft ported MS SQL to linux...
Microsoft ported / is porting .NET (.NET Core) to be cross-platform...

Microsoft added Bash under Win10...
Microsoft added the ability to run elf binaries 'natively' under Win10...
Microsoft added OpenSSH to Win10...

Microsoft has 120000 employees...
(and let's not forget that Bill Gates was No#1 richest man on earth for a few yrs in a row...)
Red Hat has 10700 employees (and mainly focuses on servers...),
Canonical 550 (and they also appear to have shifted their interests more on the server side lately...),
Debian has around 1000 contributors if i recall correctly (and the 'easiness of desktop' wasn't ever their main concern...)

...so, no, it will never ever be 'the year of the linux desktop', with ARM or without ARM i'm afraid...
The year of the linux-ified under-the-hood MS Windows though, yes, that might happen at some point...

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:02 pm
by Moem
UpholderOfTruth wrote:
moem wrote:It's not foolish if people buy it.
It is if only foolish people buy it. :D
Is it though? There's a lot of stuff being sold to foolish people every day...

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:08 pm
by UpholderOfTruth
Only mucking about not being serious. Sure it can still be a foolish idea even if millions of people buy it. Besides the original comment was 'foolish people'. The end result may still be a success but it can still be originally foolish people that started it. After all aren't foolish people doing foolish things what we want. Surely only a fool would dream of going to the moon, developing an operating system that would come to be used so widely..

I guess what I am saying is don't knock an idea being foolish. That doesn't make it a bad idea or an unsuccessful one only an idea that perhaps no one saw value in.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:12 pm
by UpholderOfTruth
thx-1138 wrote:...
I agree and it goes to what I was saying. Arguing about the 'year of the Linux desktop' or 'the year of ...' in general is in my view mostly pointless as you may just find the whole industry has changed underneath you anyway. What I was leading to was supposing Linux becomes the desktop standard only to find that the desktop/laptop itself has become a niche product. Note I'm not saying it has or that it will just providing some food for thought.

Plus don't worry about it. Just have a passion and release the product. If it comes to dominate then great if not so what.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:59 pm
by Pat D
Isn't it "simply" a matter of how many people will be interested in something they might have to put some effort into?
Aren't most of us just plain lazy about some things?
How many people have a clue about their cars?

So as long as there's any requirement to fix-it-yourself, Linux will be a hard sell to most people.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:58 pm
by majpooper
Pat D wrote:Isn't it "simply" a matter of how many people will be interested in something they might have to put some effort into?
Aren't most of us just plain lazy about some things?
How many people have a clue about their cars?

So as long as there's any requirement to fix-it-yourself, Linux will be a hard sell to most people.
I think you have hit on something here. IMHO the reason folks are leaving Win10 and going to Linux Mint is because of the effort quotient. Mind you this is based on my very limited personal experience and what I have seen on this forum. However the half dozen or so folks who have asked me to install linux for them it was because Windows was requiring too much effort. For the most part they have no clue about computers and just want to point and click.

Once someone else (me in this case) did the install and figured out any hardware/network issues they were good2go back to point and click.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:20 pm
by Ozo
majpooper wrote: I think you have hit on something here. IMHO the reason folks are leaving Win10 and going to Linux Mint is because of the effort quotient. Mind you this is based on my very limited personal experience and what I have seen on this forum. However the half dozen or so folks who have asked me to install linux for them it was because Windows was requiring too much effort. For the most part they have no clue about computers and just want to point and click.

Once someone else (me in this case) did the install and figured out any hardware/network issues they were good2go back to point and click.
Both of your points hit home here. Linux gets the award for user friendliness and the ease of use "effort quotient" is my reason to use Mint. And as you say, when you are the one doing the installation and probably the maintenance as well it is best to pick the os that is best for these tasks and one you are familiar with.

The "effort quotient" is reason enough to pick Mint but one more thing above and beyond that is the "frustration quotient". Linux wins that hands down.

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:24 pm
by Spearmint2
Proverbs chapter 21: 20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.

or

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:43 am
by UpholderOfTruth
Spearmint2 wrote:A fool and his money are soon parted
or

A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late.

(from Five Hundreth Pointes of Good Husbandrie by Thomas Tusser)