Linux (Mint, or Anything) will *never* take over the desktop

[pcwolf]

Greetings!

I started with MS-DOS ("640k should be enough for anyone") then Dr-DOS, Win 3.1, then OS/2 2.0 through Warp EOL.
From there I threw in my hat and migrated to Windows 7 and stayed throughout my military career because DoD is a Microsoft shop.
Somewhere in between I dabbled with Redhat long enough ago that I have Linux User ID 429441.
After all today's harebrained Windows 10 forced licensing schemes and increasingly sophisticated security threats, I am back with Linux Mint 18.3 KDE

I know my way around a command line, and have been guilty of spending nights on end typing in endless lines of hex from the pages of COMPUTE! magazine into my Commodore 64

This Sylvia is pretty slick alright. Y'all have come a long damn way. But as far as y'all have come, that still did not prevent my brand new, fresh installation on my M.2 NVME suffering the dropouts of wifi connectivity coming out of suspend, nor did it prevent my USB mouse from freezing up at random intervals. Both problems involved default power saving selections in the kernel, and solutions required hours of Googling potential solutions and picking the brains of Level 20s here on the forums, then writing trivial files into /etc/whatever to smooth out whatever happens to be today's latest glitch.

Go to Power options on System Settings and there is NOTHING about wireless or mouse or usb timeouts, although my M570 Logitech mouse does appear on three separate lines informing me so helpfully that I have 65% power remaining on my AA battery. WHAT IN THE HECK makes the Powers That Be write kernels to be "one size fits all"? Ninety percent of the Goog and forum hits on power problems involve laptops. I'm on the *desktop*, and I don't see any desktop-specific versions on UKUU or Synaptic Package Manager.

O.K. "Shut up and compile your own kernel then, with your own switches." That's just my point: Grandma and Grandpa are NEVER going to learn how to lsusb -v and sudo nano.

Don't get me wrong ... I here now for the duration ... and I know that no Linux old hand ever promised me anything of the sort, BUT ...

Linux will ALWAYS be an enthusiast's hobby OS on the desktop

-Phil
Yorktown, Virginia

[BigEasy]

Linux will ALWAYS be an enthusiast's hobby OS on the desktop

For example, Fedora and OpenSUSE is not enthusiast's hobby and never was.

[chrisuk]

Others will bite and give you a detailed response... I'll just nibble on the bait and swim off again

Too much of a generalisation... my Wife, who's literally scared of technology, has been running Linux on an old (P4 3.6ghz - 1 GB RAM lately - P3 512mb before that) desktop for years. She only uses it for shopping lists (Libre Office Calc), Internet (Firefox) - Email (Thunderbird) - browsing and printing photos (Nomacs now, GPhoto before). She doesn't even know what Linux is; she just switches on the Computer when she needs it... shuts it down when finished.

Oh, and what makes you think that the goal of Linux is (or ever was) to "take over the desktop"?

[Moem]

... Okay then.

[michael louwe]

@ pcwolf. .......

...

.
Bear in mind that the freely available Linux kernel and its derived-distros were developed and maintained by geeky idealists and hobbyists who have limited resources and finances. So, non-mainstream devices like wireless mouse and keyboards, gaming keyboards, wireless headsets, graphics tablets, USB Wifi adapters, etc may not be supported by Linux by default. Workarounds or reverse-engineered device drivers may be available from niche Linux developers/experts. So, Linux users should try to use only mainstream devices.

Anyway, potential converts are supposed to test-drive a Live Linux DVD/USB on their hardware devices before actually installing/using it.
... Sometimes we have to give up a few conveniences or trade-offs in exchange for free Linux, similar to giving up some privacy and data in exchange for free Google software like Android, ChromeOS, Chrome browser, Google Search, Gmail, Maps, etc = can be a fair trade.

In comparison, non-free Windows and MacOS have more resources, finances and enough market-clout to ensure support for nearly all non-mainstream devices.
... Non-free Win 10 is double-dipping by also requiring their users to give up some privacy and data, in order for M$ to display ads and preinstall apps/programs = can be an unfair trade.

[Pjotr]

Well, apparently Linux Mint will never take over *your* desktop.

Don't generalize from your own ineptitude, inexperience and uncommon bad luck with your hardware. All of which can be overcome, by the way. Should you feel so inclined.

Just ask and you'll probably receive plenty of help here.

[Lucap]

*

Boot Ubuntu 17.10 live disk to see if you get any difference with hardware detection and errors as Mint 18 is still based on a old version of Ubuntu.

[MoreLinux]

I started with MS-DOS ("640k should be enough for anyone") then Dr-DOS, Win 3.1, then OS/2 2.0 through Warp EOL.

Me too, but moved to the Amiga instead of OS/2.

From there I threw in my hat and migrated to Windows 7 and stayed throughout my military career because DoD is a Microsoft shop.

Don't work for the DoD, but the company I work for is also a Microsoft shop. Must say this is changing as we now can have Linux on our laptops or order Mac's.

Somewhere in between I dabbled with Redhat long enough ago that I have Linux User ID 429441.

Okay, so a late bloomer

but started with Slackware back in 1995.

O.K. "Shut up and compile your own kernel then, with your own switches." That's just my point: Grandma and Grandpa are NEVER going to learn how to lsusb -v and sudo nano.

Some remarks here.

1. At least we can compile or own kernel. Never tried to compile the Microsoft Windows kernel, but I'm pretty sure it will not be possible.
2. The strong wording "shut up ..." is wrong, but isn't specific to Linux, you see it also on other Windows or Mac fora. I guess it's just the new world we are living in.
3. I guess most Grandmas and Grandpas have old hardware that fits perfect on the generic kernel, so they don't need to recompile the kernel. If they want to update to Windows 10, they probably need to buy a new laptop or computer.

The biggest challenge on taking over the the desktop is that it's a change, and people don't like to change. This can be seen quite well in the response you got or quoted. The person who responded was used to the command line and shows that he or she isn't willing to look at it from a beginners perspective and try to use graphical tools when possible. This looking from a beginners perspective is very difficult, I know this from personal experience, because I am a teacher/trainer myself.

Linux will ALWAYS be an enthusiast's hobby OS on the desktop

Not entirely true, as the company I work for uses professionals to build our software on Linux. We also support many Linux projects financially and with developers. So it's not a hobby OS.

just my 2 cents

[Pierre]

Technically - - that's most probably correct - - you can't get a Linux Based Desktop,
at your Local Store - - because that Local Store can't make any $$$ from that Linux Based Desktop.

and, that is the Real Issue, here

that's why you can only get That Other Operating System for your Desktop.

[pcwolf]

Hopefully, my tongue-in-cheek came through. Anyway, I pulled up my asbestos underwear before posting

I *am* digging the geekiness of poking around and trouble-shooting the (admittedly few) bugs. Now that I am retired, I am in a very real sense returning to my first love: computers.

I learned a lot already from your replies ... I had forgotten the heritage of hobbyists cobbling together budget machines from industrial scraps out in their garage. Yeah, gram and gramp have an old Compaq Pentium and just want to Facebook and check their mail, maybe do some banking. I guess my biggest shortcoming was in building a late-model dream machine last month, *almost* all the cutting edge tech I could afford (although I had to settle for a GTX 1060 since cryptocurrencies exploded the market). The power glitches were actually irritations, slowdowns that could be worked around. Sorry I spewed like a noob

The computerists "Out There" are the ones worried about Linux taking over their desktops, of course. I still think it will never happen, mainly because you august developers have more interest in building better and better Linuxes than in going back to cleanup the wounded in the desktop wars.

Still ... if I had enough lifetime left ... I would work on building a better Linux that would take, say, a one week intensive course to install --

An install procedure that would take education, training, and study to install. A process that would take, maybe, 4-5 hours to complete.
Offer user the option of turning on/off power management. Offer user the option to install a Samsung 960 EVO M.2. drive along with commodity WD SATA.
Offer user the option of desktop/laptop varieties. Offer the user to install driver for discrete/on board AMD or NVIDIA video.
Select ALL the options and setups in point and click, drop-down screens. At install time. (Question: Is that anything like what happens when you compile a kernel?)

Of course, that can't happen, because of the kernel model holding everything that Windows slaps together with scotch tape, staples and bandages. You have to fire it up first, to see what you get, and if that is what you want. Then figure out how to get there when it is not. Poster above was right: total freedom. For me: total freedom to be stupid.

Instead, all that customization has to occur post-installation. I dig that. I'll take it ... you all can immediately see my principle problem is I have to wrap my head around a completely different software model in order to get anywhere important with Linux. So I will try to empty my head of decades of forgotten habits start computing naked again. In a manner of speaking

Doubt I will live long enough to build my own kernels though. Shame

Thanks,
-Phil

[pcwolf]

For example, Fedora and OpenSUSE is not enthusiast's hobby and never was.

BigEasy ... could you expand this for me a little bit? Do you mean they are purpose-built for other things?

-Phil

[Pjotr]

For example, Fedora and OpenSUSE is not enthusiast's hobby and never was.

BigEasy ... could you expand this for me a little bit? Do you mean they are purpose-built for other things?

-Phil

They're testbeds for the enterprise / corporate editions. Red Hat uses Fedora for that, and SUSE uses openSUSE.

Much in the same way that Ubuntu has short-lived intermediate releases for testing stuff, and LTS (long term support) releases for both the enterprise and the consumer market. Big difference with Red Hat and SUSE: even the LTS releases of Ubuntu are free (as in: free beer).

Linux Mint uses only LTS releases of Ubuntu as upstream codebase.

Note that your current mishaps with your brand new hardware, are probably (largely) caused by the fact that Mint's current codebase is relatively old (Ubuntu 16.04), so that it doesn't contain the right brand new drivers for your PC. The upcoming Mint 19 (due early this summer) might very well cure all that, because it'll have Ubuntu 18.04 as codebase.

In the meantime you might try the development version of Xubuntu 18.04 (note: alpha, still highly experimental, likely to be unstable): http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily ... -amd64.iso

[Hoser Rob]

Linux will ALWAYS be an enthusiast's hobby OS on the desktop

For example, Fedora and OpenSUSE is not enthusiast's hobby and never was.

You're confusing SUSE with OpenSUSE and RHEL with Fedora. SUSE and RHEL are enterprise level distros, which means you have to pay for the license and support. Fedora and OpenSUSE are the hobbyist versions, not deemed ready for their paying customers. I installed Fedora once and it wasn't even ready for hobbyist use. The package manager was broken. I've seen things in Ubuntu based releases that weren't quite so serious but I had to wonder how they could ship it as it was.

Enterprise level diistros are also very conservative ... if you get RHEL you don't get the Gnome desktop with all the bells and whistles, you get Gnome Fallback.

I actually agree with the OP. This bit about "this is the year of the Linux desktop" has been going on for decades now. It's getting very tired and desperate sounding. And have you noticed that a lot of the muni governments in Europe that switched to Linux are switching back to Windows?

[BigEasy]

You're confusing SUSE with OpenSUSE and RHEL with Fedora. SUSE and RHEL are enterprise level distros, which means you have to pay for the license and support. Fedora and OpenSUSE are the hobbyist versions, not deemed ready for their paying customers.

I'm not confused nothing. I deliberately did not mention paid projects. Both OpenSUSE and Fedora - free as product but sponsored by SUSE Linux GmbH and Red Hat respectively. Their developers is not a group of people who have nothing else to do except to support the project for their own pleasure. Their work is paid by (see above).

I actually agree with the OP.

Me too but with correction. Linux will never take over the desktop not because desktops created by hobbyists but because Linux itself is not for desktops.
Don't let me wrong, I use Linux desktops and very happy with it. But it because I'm lucky - everything works for me just out of the box an me myself something understand. I mean computers and software.

[Portreve]

A part of me is tempted to say, “I don't care what OS anyone else uses.”

However, because we live in an interconnected world and what choices someone else makes in certain contexts absolutely can impact others (e.g. botnet-powered DDOS attacks) I can really relate to a comment made by Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson that he doesn't care what you believe, but when you have the power to affect public policy, then what you believe (NetNeutrality stifles competition, global warming is a hoax, etc.) matters a lot.

As for hardware support for certain hardware, I can appreciate the frustration. The truth, of course, is hardware support is very much impacted by the ethical views of those who run companies. Iterate and innovate your darn hardware, and quit hiding behind the bogeyman of software development. GNU+Linux geeks and coders on other platforms are some of the hardest of hardcore gamers. Open your APIs, and let the largest possible cross-section of the finest minds on the planet produce better, cleaner, and more vibrant code than you ever could.

[jimallyn]

migrated to Windows 7 and stayed throughout my military career because DoD is a Microsoft shop.

Really?

“When we rolled into Baghdad, we did it using open source. It may come as a surprise to many of you, but the U.S. Army is 'the' single largest install base for Red Hat Linux. I'm their largest customer.” - Brigadier General Nick Justice

And on the new Zumwalt destroyer:

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... sf892043=1

Linux took over my desktop in 2002, and has taken over the desktops of a fair number of friends and family members since then. Linus Torvalds says he's happy with desktop Linux, and that Linux will also take over the desktop, eventually:

"I actually am very happy with the Linux desktop, and I started the project for my own needs, and my needs are very much fulfilled. That's why, to me, it's not a failure. I would obviously love for Linux to take over that world too, but it turns out it's a really hard area to enter. I'm still working on it. It's been 25 years. I can do this for another 25. I'll wear them down."

[sevendogs]

OP is a Wincrap fanboy, go drink your koolaide and enjoy your lobotomy.

[wutsinterweb]

I worked for both the DoD AND the DoE in labs and our computers were actually Apple systems. I don't know where the "DoD is an Microsoft enterprise" thing.

I am not certain just how tongue and cheek this really was, seems to me someone complaining about and exclaiming that Linux isn't really practicle. That is an interesting premise, because for me, it is not true.

My first computer was a plastic "digicomp" childhood toy, if you want to get elite about it. I worked with IBM punchcard computers entering data and built robots back in the early days and owned a Timex Sinclair AND a TI99-4A home computer replete with special tape deck made for the TI. I build my own 386SX, added a copro, and had an EGA monitor in college. I turned down jobs at both AMD and Intel graduating from school.

And yet, I do NOT profess here that I know much really, I am constantly learning, not nearly as elite os the OP is, and STILL, for 14 months now, I've been nearly Linux ONLY. ONLY once, due to Windows 10 in a virtual machine, did any of my systems lock up. None have crashed. Ever. The only perpheral that works not quite as I'd like is the webcam, an old one, that wasn't a big seller that I need to replug in from time to time.

Considering that most GNU is made voluntarily or by companies with a voluntary spirit, considering that there is BETTER forum support For many Linux versions THAN Windows, considering that it isn't a major requirement to run anti malware or AVs in a live process and that most Anti Virus stuff done is so that Recipients who USE WINDOWS won't catch a spread infection, considering that hardware is often supported LONGER than Windows, considering that 99% of the software most average Janes and Joes need is GNU-Free-Libre, considering that there ARE NO SECRETS IN LINUX and that anyone can learn ANYTHING in how it works, from code up to directory structure, considering that a total novice who has never used a PC before would often find it EASIER to learn to run some mainstream Linux Distros THAN Windows, considering that Windows requires you to update whether you like it or not, and does it when you just want to shut your system down, as if we all make our schedules to make Redmond happy, considering that many of the few free softwares available for Windows started as Linux projects, considering that there is no corruptable Registry, considering that many mainstream distros provide software managers with "shopping" menus for software, considering that, oh, I better stop there for now...

If anything, Windows is not ready for primetime, at least for me. Almost all my dissatisfaction and frustration floated away when I moved to Linux 14 months ago.

Sure, yes, I've felt the need to learn nuts and bolts, learn commands, learn compsci. Linux motivated me to in a way Windows never did, with Windows I always felt like I was in a fog of mystery.

And I will leave one of the worst things last: The License hassle: Want to move to a new computer or even just replace a broken mainboard? Want to install on a 9 year old box that isn't worth a 120 license? Need to run multiple computers, say a laptop, an NAS, a desktop, a router, a gamer, and a workstation and don't see the point in it costing up to 2,000 just to license them all (based on retail versions)?

The thing is, Linux isn't the underdog, it isn't the Philly Eagles (I don't like football, CTEs), it's that smart kid you resented in grade school and beat up who went on to be a millionaire while you reside in a trailer park, school hero or not. GNU/Linux is "FLOSS" (Free, Libre, Open Source Software). It's my every dependable happy place that, every time after working on Windows for someone, I go back to my Linux and sigh a peaceful sigh of relieve. It's a day at the beach after beating my brains out at work.

I LOVE LINUX, I LOVE MINT. The OP can say what he will, but nothing he's said strikes me with enough validity to feel the need to defend. If he doesn't like it, great, send Redmond another big check and enjoy your Windows, all the power to you, but we are growing. I'm living proof it's a go to solution.

[wutsinterweb]

Also, as for building a linux that would "take":

Ever look at much of the backbone of the business world and internet?

Ever look at the cell phone craze?

Ever look at NASA or Sandia Labs?

Ever visit some world governments?

I recently read that up to 46% or more of the interwebs is run on and through Linux systems and non Windows systems.

What you are really thinking is this: "I want something that is Windows, but for free" "I want to be able to use all the non free software and hardware but on a free OS with support I don't pay for" "I want Linux to be "like" Windows"

Those things ain't gonna happen, the Linux world doesn't want them, doesn't supprot them, doesn't need them. Get to know Richard and Linus and read what they say.

You can't go to a Yankee's game and exclaim that you'd prefer it if it were a Patriot's game. Baseball is NOT football. Linux is NOT Windows.

You know what WOULD take? Catching on to the hows and whys of GNU and learning how to use them effectively and support and develope for them also. I am working towards that goal, myself.

[catweazel]

Ever look at much of the backbone of the business world and internet?

Ever look at the cell phone craze?

Ever look at NASA or Sandia Labs?

Ever visit some world governments?

I recently read that up to 46% or more of the interwebs is run on and through Linux systems and non Windows systems.

Subject: Linux (Mint, or Anything) will *never* take over the desktop