Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

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CaptainKirksChair
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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by CaptainKirksChair » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:25 pm

If Mint wants to remove or disable this functionality and Canonical tells them they have to leave it as is or not use Unbuntu as the Mint base OS, then Canonical is selling the data or has plans to expand the collection in the future and sell it. If Canonical doesn't care one way or another, then it's no big deal and we're crying wolf. Basically, this is a wait and see issue.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lysander666 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:41 am

Penn wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:36 am
Debian uses the popcorn idea to report on what apps users want most as of Stretch.
Not so, popcon has been part of Debian for a lot longer than that:

https://sources.debian.org/src/popularity-contest/

Please note that it is "popcon" [short for "popularity contest"], not "popcorn".
Penn wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:36 am
You have to agree to it during install and if you don't, it isn't included.
Yes, it is opt-in. The default has been 'off' ever since Sarge [Debian 3.1].
Lucap wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 am
OMG , walls of text.

Reverse out of thread , meep , meep , meep , meep
It was actually quite a good post, Lucap, and worth reading.
Last edited by Lysander666 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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michael louwe
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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by michael louwe » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:31 am

@ CaptainKirk, .......
CaptainKirksChair wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:25 pm
If Mint wants to remove or disable this functionality and Canonical tells them they have to leave it as is or not use Unbuntu as the Mint base OS, then Canonical is selling the data or has plans to expand the collection in the future and sell it.
Based on the GNU Licensing terms, I think Canonical Inc cannot do this legally. IOW, the Linux kernel, Debian and Ubuntu is like Freeware = Opensource software = not proprietary software.

Eg Red Hat uses strict trademark rules to restrict free re-distribution of their officially supported versions of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, but still freely provides its source code. Fedora, developed by the community-supported Fedora Project and sponsored by Red Hat, is a free-of-cost alternative intended for home use.(source; Wikipedia)
... Similarly, Canonical Inc may only trademark the Ubuntu OS/name/brand, ie prevent others from using or downloading the Ubuntu OS/name/brand but Canonical cannot prevent others from using or not using Ubuntu's open-source software, eg the Ubuntu/Debian repositories.
Last edited by michael louwe on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lucap » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:34 am

Lysander666 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:41 am
Lucap wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:12 am
OMG , walls of text.

Reverse out of thread , meep , meep , meep , meep
It was actually quite a good post, Lucap, and worth reading.
I have neither the intellect or intelligence to read more than a couple of lines so i'll just tick the opt-out option. :)

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Penn » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:34 am

Lysander666 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:41 am
Penn wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:36 am
Debian uses the popcorn idea to report on what apps users want most as of Stretch.
Not so, popcon has been part of Debian for a lot longer than that:
As of Stretch. You are certain it will be included after Stretch? I'm not certain since I don't follow testing but as of Stretch it is a part of Debian.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lysander666 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:59 am

Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:34 am
As of Stretch. You are certain it will be included after Stretch? I'm not certain since I don't follow testing but as of Stretch it is a part of Debian.
It's been part of Debian since Slink [Debian 2.1]. The first version of popcon was written in 1998.

Since it has been part of Debian for nearly 20 years, one would imagine that it'll be around for a lot longer.

And yes, it's already in testing and in sid.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/popularity-contest
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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Penn » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm

Lysander666 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:59 am
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:34 am
As of Stretch. You are certain it will be included after Stretch? I'm not certain since I don't follow testing but as of Stretch it is a part of Debian.
It's been part of Debian since Slink [Debian 2.1]. The first version of popcon was written in 1998.

Since it has been part of Debian for nearly 20 years, one would imagine that it'll be around for a lot longer.

And yes, it's already in testing and in sid.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/popularity-contest
So you are saying "as of Stretch" is "not so"?

Same thing I asked you in another thread with different wording, why is this so important to you? Is there some sort of point scale I'm not aware of and you are outscoring me? If so, it really doesn't matter to me but if it amuses you I'll gladly keep engaging. Really, these tickytack semantics don't advance real conversation, especially when it is just you reading things the way you want and attacking on that basis. I'm really not looking for debate so if you want real conversation that would be preferable to me but I can do this too even if I'm not good at it.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lysander666 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:54 pm

Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
So you are saying "as of Stretch" is "not so"?
Yes indeed, I thought I had made that quite clear. I can say it again though - popcon has not been part of Debian as of Stretch. It has been part of it since Slink, which is version 2.1.
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
Same thing I asked you in another thread with different wording, why is this so important to you?
The only thing that is important to me is that people get facts right. If someone posts something incorrect, it is important that it is corrected so that other forum members [and the poster] do not retain the wrong information.
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
Is there some sort of point scale I'm not aware of and you are outscoring me?
No, not at all. It's a level playing field, we are all trying to learn. The fact that you are the same poster that I addressed in another thread is merely coincidence. I don't care about who is posting, only what is being said.
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
semantics
It's dangerous to withhold the idea that disagreements are based on semantics in the two cases that you and I have discussed. Don't conflate semantics with opinions, or facts. To do such is an attempt - intentionally or subconsiously - to misdirect the focus of the discussion.
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
especially when it is just you reading things the way you want and attacking on that basis.
My intention is not to attack, only to present facts. My style of writing can be rather direct and straightforward at times, but that is purely for clarification. It is not to attack you.
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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Penn » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:15 pm

Lysander666 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:54 pm
Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:58 pm
So you are saying "as of Stretch" is "not so"?
Yes indeed, I thought I had made that quite clear. I can say it again though - popcon has not been part of Debian as of Stretch. It has been part of it since Slink, which is version 2.1.
You do realize "as of" does not denote past or future but just the current situation.? As of now this will start. As of now this will end. As of now, we should get back on topic. As of now, (when Stretch is the current stable release) pocon is used. You are simply wrong to say it is "not so". But thank you for the clarification.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lysander666 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Penn wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:15 pm
You do realize "as of" does not denote past or future but just the current situation.?
No, it doesn't. It seems your argument rests on a misundestanding of what "as of" means. Read the below carefully:
as of

PHRASE
Used to indicate the time or date from which something starts.

‘as of January 1, a free market will be created’
‘I'm on unemployment as of today’
Source - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/as_of
as of/from

starting from a particular time or date:

As of next month, all the airline's fares will be going up.
Source - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... as-of-from

Please do some research before posting. This was again the issue in the previous topic - making scattershot, vague comments and assumptions which have little basis in fact.

But I do agree, we should get back on topic. I won't respond again on these points.
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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Penn » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:19 pm

Lysander666 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:43 pm
But I do agree, we should get back on topic. I won't respond again on these points.
I'm glad we agree. I am lazy and continuing this would require me bringing up multiple opinions of linguistics experts pointing out a multitude of issues with multiple dictionaries in the modern age for doing such things as attempting to define individual phrases instead of relying on the definitions of the individual words.

Interesting that someone wishing to show their mastery of the English language would start a sentence with a conjunction. Of course, I do the same frequently.

Yes, I comment knowing that you will read as you did the last time you chose to end a conversation. Points to you if you can see where in this thread you revealed that.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by ghoultek » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:12 pm

I won't debate as to when Popcon was added to Debian. However, a usage tracking service, set to run on an on-going schedule via a cron job (or other mechanism), that reports back to the Debian devs or anyone else, is spyware. It is in the same category as the data collection telemetry crap that is in Win 10. I purposefully chose to use Linux to side step the spyware/data collection mess on Windows. I could understand the need for spyware on a corporate desktop where the user is not the owner of the hardware, thus the owner has the right to do as they see fit (within reason). However, on my own private hardware? Hell no. No distro maintainer needs to acquire user feedback via an automated monitoring tool or auto-inclusion mechanism.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by ghoultek » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:30 pm

CaptainKirksChair wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:25 pm
If Mint wants to remove or disable this functionality and Canonical tells them they have to leave it as is or not use Unbuntu as the Mint base OS, then Canonical is selling the data or has plans to expand the collection in the future and sell it. If Canonical doesn't care one way or another, then it's no big deal and we're crying wolf. Basically, this is a wait and see issue.
You are assuming that Canonical hasn't already been paid to undertake the data collection effort. The only time when a for-profit corporation makes moves and jumps ahead of its legal team is when the reward (money or size of potential earnings) is greater than the risk associated with:
- breaking the law and paying a penalty
- the penalty can negotiated down to a negligible amount through attorneys
- the blow back and negative publicity is no real threat to the on-going survival of the business and/or its revenue streams

Publishing the collected data publicly and/or caring about the collected data is basically irrelevant. Why you might ask?... because collecting supposedly harmless data for publicly stated intent-A, where intent-A has a small but real monetary value, when the unspoken intent-B has huge monetary value. You can't really believe that in the information age, playing the game of "connect the dots" isn't a big multi-billion dollar business when Google spent more than $3 Billion dollars to acquire "DoubleClick". DoubleClick's business is user/browser tracking (data collection) to be used as "expertise" in helping businesses with marketing/advertising.

This isn't a wait and see situation. You can already see Canonical's unhealthy intent. They were suppose to be ending their data collection/spyware practices by dropping the Unity desktop. This would confirm that they learned their lesson and listened to the community. However, they are just replacing one data collection/spyware scheme with another. It is a big deal because this data collection effort serves as a "proof of concept". What concept? The idea that a wealthy well known corporation can:
- trample upon the tenets of a platform
- directly or indirectly injure the reputation of a community and its members
- infringe upon a community's right to privacy
- betray the trust of a community
...and its no big deal because they assume the community is gullible. We are just another exploitable market to them.

Just in case you still strongly believe that this is "no big deal", the following is evidence of intent to use the data for market segmentation and other forms of market analysis. It comes directly from Will Cooke's post
The results of this data would be made public. E.g. People would be able
to see that X% of Ubuntu users are based in .de vs Y% in .za. Z% of our
users run Dell hardware, and so on.
I use to work for a large US bank. They have entire divisions (business units) dedicated to individual markets. I can spot market analysis jargon pretty easily.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by Lucap » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:11 am

At least Canonical is not FSLabs as they have just been caught out rummaging through Chrome Web browser saved passwords without asking. :)

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by eengnerd » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:23 pm

Personally, I want Canonical to gather information about the hardware I'm using because it will help them eliminate bugs in their software. This is also why they chose to include this feature. I don't know where you get the idea that they will use any information to generate unwanted ads. This is not how true open source people behave. For several years now I have requested that both Canonical and LinuxMint have a standardized way of reporting the hardware config info from my machine to their server, so that bugs can be squashed more easily. There's nothing intrusive or evil about this practice. Now if they go too far with data collection and start abusing us with ads, then that's another story, but I seriously doubt that this will happen.

Arthur

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by punkbiscuit » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:09 pm

Just curious...

Can anyone recall or provide proof of a campany or organisation that collected data for improving the "customer experience", and the end user saw tangible results ?

I've never seen it.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by JeremyB » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:17 pm

Ubuntu could use hardware info to prioritize bug reports as the system in place now does have its flaws, anyone can add themselves to the list of affected by a certain bug with no proof. Most Linux distros that have bug reporting can't keep up with it

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by mike acker » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:25 pm

ghoultek wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:30 pm

-snip-
You can already see Canonical's unhealthy intent.

-snip
isn't Canonical getting cozy with that commercial bunch up in Redmond? I think that sez it all.

Let's go with Debian
¡Viva la Resistencia!

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by ghoultek » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:52 am

@eengnerd:

Will Cooke's own words:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubunt ... 40139.html

Read it carefully and you will see it is more than just hardware data collection. There is no need for this manner of data collection. If Canonical offered community members a means to willingly submit data to them without pushing the data collection and spyware upon all Ubuntu users then maybe they would get the benefit of the doubt. Instead they chose to replace one data collection/spyware scheme with another. The only reason why they are pushing it on community members is because they know that a privacy conscious and privacy advocating community has no interest in being tracked and surveilled by corporations and governments. Most end-users side step product registration efforts for almost every product.

We also have to be mindful of common habits. It is a common occurrence that more experiences Linux users would casually steer first-timers toward "user friendly distros". The most commonly recommended distro. is Ubuntu. It is also one of the most well known and one of the easiest to find via search engines. Unsuspecting newbies would download 18.04 and follow their Windows install habits of not paying much attention (repeatedly clicking the "next" button) and thus forfeit their privacy before they even know they have. Worse still they are most likely to select the option to install 3rd party software (codecs). In doing so they would unwittingly incriminate themselves and give away a digital confession to Ubuntu. Even if they skipped the 3rd party codes at install, once they realize they can't view movies or listen to music they'll prioritize installing the codes via the software center. Popcon (not pop corn) will silently track and report those installs to Canonical. Popcon's is yet another means of gathering digital confessions, and end-user surveillance. No distro. maintainer needs this information and definitely not collected via the Microsoft method.

FYI, as stated in earlier posts, Debian installs Popcon so, they aren't off the hook either.

Collecting data does not guarantee that bugs will be fixed. If they need to know how many users are on Dell equipment they can go do Dell directly because Dell has the sales records. Instead of fishing in the pool of end-users Canonical should work with the kernel devs. to get hardware vendors to publish/share the details of the hardware products. Getting the hardware vendors to publish/share the details of their products would benefit the entire community and all Linux distros.

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Re: Canonical Pursuing A Hardware/Software Survey For Ubuntu Installations

Post by ghoultek » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:28 am

isn't Canonical getting cozy with that commercial bunch up in Redmond? I think that sez it all.
Of course they are... Canonical is just one of their Linux/Windows integration partners:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft- ... indows-10/

You might consider skipping Debian since they install Popularity Contest (Popcon), and Canonical got the Popcon idea from Debian. If we did a google search for:
- "Canonical and Microsft"
- "Debian and Microsoft"
- "Gentoo and Microsoft"
...we will find a mountain of evidence showing Microsoft is trying to insert themselves into the open source and Linux community. M$ hired one of the key founding members of Gentoo:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft- ... x-founder/

Basically everybody and their mama wants to be in bed with Linux:
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/

Back on topic... What is the response of the LinuxMint team? I'm very interested in their response.

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